Maybe the incubators recycle the empty grief seeds that they create into new soul gems, by a process that basically gives the grief seed a new cover, and the witch a new identity, and soul to reside in.
No... I'm thinking that a full grief seed is too useful in it's fugue state.

Ultimately the Incubators want witches FULL of grief just before the point of hatching into their dangerous mobile form. It's pretty much the densest concentrations of Grief that can be achieved without having a full witch bloom (which likely is essentially the point at which the soul gem can no longer contain the dense concentration of Grief itself any longer)


It's one of the reasons why we're just not on the same side as it is, and it KNOWS this. Because ultimately we reduce the amount of grief in the system and lower the 'quality' of it. (Note how it reacted to the grief marble's earlier, making note of the lower density of grief than in a grief seed)

Denser fuel sources tend to have wider ranges of use than more disparate fuel sources... so what ever Kyubi is doing might involve getting as dense a concentration of grief as possible.
 
No... I'm thinking that a full grief seed is too useful in it's fugue state.

Ultimately the Incubators want witches FULL of grief just before the point of hatching into their dangerous mobile form. It's pretty much the densest concentrations of Grief that can be achieved without having a full witch bloom (which likely is essentially the point at which the soul gem can no longer contain the dense concentration of Grief itself any longer)


It's one of the reasons why we're just not on the same side as it is, and it KNOWS this. Because ultimately we reduce the amount of grief in the system and lower the 'quality' of it. (Note how it reacted to the grief marble's earlier, making note of the lower density of grief than in a grief seed)

Denser fuel sources tend to have wider ranges of use than more disparate fuel sources... so what ever Kyubi is doing might involve getting as dense a concentration of grief as possible.
Maybe that would be what state the seed is in, right before they empty it to make a new soul container. Also, there is a small spot of grief in every soul gem, there is a small spot of grief in an empty seed, that is why I think the empty seeds might be the precursor to a new soul gem.
 
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Most of that has been discussed already, yes. The general conclusion is that feathers is unlikely to be our witch as Oriko says it isn't a witch
 
NO!
No familiars, no barriers, no "totally not a witch" uses of our powers.

The "Witch mindset" seems to be "consuming", "infectious", "compelling", "overpowering", whatever. I'm very afraid to do any of those things. At the very least, we should not do it alone.
 
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A private venue is actually much worse in that a)there are fewer ways for us to defuse it, b)fewer other people for us to use to defuse any awkward situations, c)less reason for Yuma and Nagisa to be there, d)It'll be blatantly obvious why we're doing it and it'll be more likely to be rejected out of hand. The picnic is a perfect excuse to at least get them in the same room again in a relatively safe situation.

Also, I don't feel the argument that we're rushing too fast holds water at all- we still have days to set things up and we're just asking questions at this stage. We're not arguing to push them together right away so much as make the first reunion possible in the near future under fairly safe circumstances.

Yes I understand that. Still think you're moving way too goddamn fast, to the point I can't help but see shoehorning Kyouko nearly guaranteed to ruin the whole thing. And that's not what we want.

The groundwork needs to be substantially better then what it is right now. Until then, my opinion remains unchanged. If nothing else, we got work to do.

We have work to do. Sure. Then we should do it. If excessive caution whenever a chance to change something is the approach we take, then I suspect that the thread'll be in- at best- exactly the same place for relationships with just about everyone in about a month...give or take how many problems Firn's thrown at us for us to deal with in the meantime. Given how many deadlines we're working with, that really isn't a good thing. It's 'change the system and help people quest' not 'sit around and do nothing quest'. Being proactive is slightly more risky, but it's more likely to get results.

Some updates ago, Mami had broken down, and I felt we needed to hurry up our Mami-helping plans, including reconciling Kyouko and Mami, which included dropping hints in order to ultimately have Kyouko attend the picnic.

Now, I feel that was too hasty. Mami's doing better after having something to focus her mind, and having some time to calm down.

SWB brings up a fantastic point to not try to get Kyouko to attend the picnic: It's Mami's picnic. It's not our 'reconcile Mami & Kyouko' plan.

Seeing this as a 'possibility', trying to make the reconciliation happen out of the picnic, is just us once more taking somebody else's thoughts, ideas, actions, and twisting them into something that'd benefit our purposes, with no actual care for what that person wants. In this case, that's Mami.
There's not wanting to twist someone else's plan, whatever that really means when we're hardly a stranger or unfamiliar party and we're involved in the whole thing, and then there's reactionary terror to the idea of doing anything, ever, to help our friends. I disagree that caring about Mami having a circle of friends and wanting to see if she'd be okay with meeting Kyouko again is uncaring in any way, shape, or form...and really have difficulty with the reasoning behind that kind of thing.

Hmm... Ok So I have read this here from yesterday until now without looking at the discussion so I might be repeating familar things here, so bare with me.

1) The feathers seem to me almost obviously to be Sabrina's... In fact it occurs to me that Sabrina as a witch would be pretty much the ultimate in scary monsters, and many of the limits which she runs into are because she doesn't have access to the fugue mentality which drives a witch's power. As a witch... she'd effectively be able to shut down pretty much anything Witch or magical girl related... and might even be able to cannibalize other witches for greater and wider scope of power.

2) It seems to me also obvious that trying to 'heal' the Grief-seeds is the wrong approach because really you don't 'Heal' the soul gems, you heal the bodies which they're connected to... Instead I can't help but think maybe with the clear seeds what you should be trying to do is make bodies made of grief and/or magic for them, then connect them (the ones in the clear state) to the bodies.

3) The scene in Sabrina's barrier makes me think of Sayaka's transformation scene into Octavia. Essentially the gem takes over, the body hangs limp and the new 'self' which is the main body and the barrier encompasses the gem which then discards the old body and the old identity. Familiars and everywhere inside of the barrier are part of the 'mind' of the witch, the main body just being a functional focus point around which its 'thoughts' and 'dreams' enfold. Create your perfect world...

4) Has it ever been thought of or proposed that we should try to make familiars of our own?



Now one of the most interesting things is basically the existence of the 'Grief Spiral' which is basically the defining factor point at which a Magical girl crosses over into witch-dom, that self-obsessed moment of absolute despair unable to see anything but their own misfortunes until they retreat into their 'happy place'. Reaching out to the Grief-Seed seems to me to be like reaching out directly to a Soul gem separated from it's body. Ie the person is there... but they're insensate, because they literally have no senses, not body with which their Soul can express itself.


Also I'm kinda curious as to what the effect of creating a witch's barrier within a witch's barrier would be like.

Maybe we should try to investigate the connection between Sabrina's own body and soul-gem or try something similar so that she has a better understanding of the connection between these two things.

One thing I'm fairly sure of though, a Witch won't just 'revert' to a magical girl... even if fixed... I'm pretty sure we'd be looking at a completely new type of entity either way.
Welcome aboard!
 
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2) It seems to me also obvious that trying to 'heal' the Grief-seeds is the wrong approach because really you don't 'Heal' the soul gems, you heal the bodies which they're connected to... Instead I can't help but think maybe with the clear seeds what you should be trying to do is make bodies made of grief and/or magic for them, then connect them (the ones in the clear state) to the bodies.
[jk]Steal corpse, put Hildegard's seed onto it.
 
NO!
No familiars, no barriers, no "totally not a witch" uses of our powers.

The "Witch mindset" seems to be "consuming", "infectious", "compelling", "overpowering", whatever. I'm very afraid to do any of those things. At the very least, we should not do it alone.
You do realize that this arguement against doing such things just makes space for us not to understand when such happens to us right?

Not that throwing ourselves whole heartedly into the maw of danger without safeguards is smart at all (experimenting without a clean soul gem to work with, and no person next to us to keep an eye on where our state of mind actually is at are 2 things which have been done thus far that strike me as 'out to get yourself killed').

Ultimately a balanced approach is best. Something like a Familiar (construct representing your inner mind and desires, operational independent of self) should be find if its our own. Maybe... but that's why you wouldn't try it without supervision.


The witch grief spiral is something I expect eventually we're going to have to face... because the way we've shaped Sabrina, she's eventually going to have that point that Homura's been running into face first (savior complex), and she's kinda building herself to a very fragile edge... an edge which also has a particularly dark potential because her control of grief makes her more stable at the lower end (no slow build up) but at the higher end Im kinda afraid she'd tip over into the 'witch' zone far faster than anyone else.


On the other hand... I'm morbidly curious as to what happens with her after that... and kinda afraid of just what she could potentially do.


Most of that has been discussed already, yes. The general conclusion is that feathers is unlikely to be our witch as Oriko says it isn't a witch
Thing is... our 'witch' might infact not STAY a witch.
 
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You do realize that this arguement against doing such things just makes space for us not to understand when such happens to us right?

Not that throwing ourselves whole heartedly into the maw of danger without safeguards is smart at all (experimenting without a clean soul gem to work with, and no person next to us to keep an eye on where our state of mind actually is at are 2 things which have been done thus far that strike me as 'out to get yourself killed').

Ultimately a balanced approach is best. Something like a Familiar (construct representing your inner mind and desires, operational independent of self) should be find if its our own. Maybe... but that's why you wouldn't try it without supervision.


The witch grief spiral is something I expect eventually we're going to have to face... because the way we've shaped Sabrina, she's eventually going to have that point that Homura's been running into face first (savior complex), and she's kinda building herself to a very fragile edge... an edge which also has a particularly dark potential because her control of grief makes her more stable at the lower end (no slow build up) but at the higher end Im kinda afraid she'd tip over into the 'witch' zone far faster than anyone else.


On the other hand... I'm morbidly curious as to what happens with her after that... and kinda afraid of just what she could potentially do.
"Mami Mami mami mami mami mami. Mami. Mami mami."-Giygas Sabrina
I wonder how that would work... This would probably be the end of the universe, caused by a mind broken deldore.
 
Ehhhh. I'd say the association between Barriers and suspicion from even our closest friends, mindset affecting magic, and the wild card that was Feathers actually making itself known for the first time...when word of precog is that it will lolstomp anyone but the dream team and kill everyone is compelling reason not to try risky, witch-esque grief research that isn't directly related to making soul gems from grief seeds. Familiar research has been brought up but at this stage it falls under a)too close to a Witch, b)too likely to trip flags we REALLY don't want to set off right now from Feathers, c)not directly useful enough for our goals to justify a) and b)

Sabrina's extremely poor- partially by design- at managing her emotions but uses grief cleansing to cheat. If that's an issue, her mindset is the angle to attack it from because other than that, us using our grief cleansing is the only real- and effective- answer to a mindset that lends itself to accumulating psychologically-caused grief. Seriously, just going by her reactions, the girl's actually worse than Sayaka at reacting reasonably. Oriko first encounter, Homura just being disapproving, upsetting Mami...But we can cheat.

If Sabrina griefspirals- and her indefinite cleansing, drive, and knowledge make that unlikely- it will probably be caused by thread despair which'll likely means things have gotten so bad that no manner of grief resistance will fix the conviction that things are over and we're going to BAD END.
 
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If Sabrina griefspirals- and her indefinite cleansing, drive, and knowledge make that unlikely- it will probably be caused by thread despair which'll likely means things have gotten so bad that no manner of grief resistance will fix the conviction that things are over and we're going to BAD END.
Thing is... it can be caused by falling into an enemy's psychological attack, which I'm pretty much guessing will be part of the endgame dealing with Kyuubi if they're allowed too much information on us.

Never forget that they are ALWAYS looking for a new angle to attack anything they see as a problem. And the only way to deal with them ultimately is to prove yourself to be something which gives them more of what they want... or to do what Homura did with them...
 
Thing is... our 'witch' might infact not STAY a witch.
Ehhhhhhhh what? That sounds like it would be pretty big cop-out.

Also, I don't see the benefit in "proving ourselves of use" to the incubators. Providing them information on what we can do is pretty much always a bad idea, since information is their weapon. Homura probably thought that telling Kyubey about the old system was harmless, and then she woke up in a science experiment. Give the incubators information at your own risk.
 
Thing is... it can be caused by falling into an enemy's psychological attack, which I'm pretty much guessing will be part of the endgame dealing with Kyuubi if they're allowed too much information on us.

Never forget that they are ALWAYS looking for a new angle to attack anything they see as a problem. And the only way to deal with them ultimately is to prove yourself to be something which gives them more of what they want... or to do what Homura did with them...
Agreed, and his absence is extremely worrying...which is why a minimal contact approach to bunnycat is the only real counter we have. Do not approach the incubator, do not talk to the incubator, punt the incubator out of the nearest open window...

The former is impossible to pull off in a way that guarantees a reasonable chance of success given just how greedy they are and any 'agreement' being inherently worthless- see Rebellion- and the latter requires literal godhood.
 
Yeah, let's not. Oriko's kind of known for acting on what her visions show her, damn the personal cost. And Dedolere is an existential threat to reality.
That. Was. Awesome.

And? Unfortunately for you, it only makes me want to do it more.
So cool~ eeeeeeeee
Familiar research has been brought up but at this stage it falls under a)too close to a Witch, b)too likely to trip flags we REALLY don't want to set off right now from Feathers, c)not directly useful enough for our goals to justify a) and b)
What?

.....

To elaborate:

a) What
b) What
c) What could possibly be more useful than having independent sentient gem-cleansers not restricted to our range?
You're proposing that feathers appears when we play music? An interesting hypothesis, but somewhat testable. Still, where did it come from?
 
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Ehhhhhhhh what? That sounds like it would be pretty big cop-out.

Also, I don't see the benefit in "proving ourselves of use" to the incubators. Providing them information on what we can do is pretty much always a bad idea, since information is their weapon. Homura probably thought that telling Kyubey about the old system was harmless, and then she woke up in a science experiment. Give the incubators information at your own risk.

When I say prove yourself of use... I don't mean by words... because then they'll take the information you tell them and go for the logical extreme. Which 90% of the time won't benefit you. Kyuubi are very much that 'alien intellect' that don't care you exist beyond the fulfillment of it's goals.

Infact part of my statement was to WARN against giving them too much information. Leaving them guessing is usually the best course of action.
 
When I say prove yourself of use... I don't mean by words... because then they'll take the information you tell them and go for the logical extreme. Which 90% of the time won't benefit you. Kyuubi are very much that 'alien intellect' that don't care you exist beyond the fulfillment of it's goals.

Infact part of my statement was to WARN against giving them too much information. Leaving them guessing is usually the best course of action.
The thing is...it's essentially impossible to defuse the logical extreme, and Kyubey can and will risk breaking a functional relationship for the mere possibility of a larger payoff.

Agreed.
 
Eh, my default assumption is that Kyubey sees everything not outside of timestop or sphere of containment when it comes to Sabrina. Because he can, and he is curious. Just not talking...is awfully ineffective at preventing information leaking.
 
1) The feathers seem to me almost obviously to be Sabrina's... In fact it occurs to me that Sabrina as a witch would be pretty much the ultimate in scary monsters, and many of the limits which she runs into are because she doesn't have access to the fugue mentality which drives a witch's power. As a witch... she'd effectively be able to shut down pretty much anything Witch or magical girl related... and might even be able to cannibalize other witches for greater and wider scope of power.
We have discussed this quite a bit (of course), and the reasons that we told Homura and Mami that we don't think that we are the cause of the Feather are the same reasons that mean that Dedolere is probably not the cause of "Feathers":
1. The Feather didn't feel witchy.
2. The Feather didn't show up the first time we made a Barrier.
In addition, there are a couple of other reasons not to suspect Dedolere:
1. We can sense Dedolere within our soul gem, and it is quiescent.
2. Oriko said that it's not a witch and that (given the right tools), Sabrina can "end" the threat. I'm not sure exactly what that means (it's one of the things that I'd like to talk to her about to get clarification), but it doesn't sound like she was talking about our witch.
3. Firnagzen has said that if we ever do witch out, then that will be a Bad End of the Quest.

2) It seems to me also obvious that trying to 'heal' the Grief-seeds is the wrong approach because really you don't 'Heal' the soul gems, you heal the bodies which they're connected to... Instead I can't help but think maybe with the clear seeds what you should be trying to do is make bodies made of grief and/or magic for them, then connect them (the ones in the clear state) to the bodies.
I agree that we're not likely to make progress with dewitching until we have a body. But I would prefer to have an actual flesh-and-blood body to use rather than a grief/magic simulacrum. Current possibilities for creating a body include: repurposing a corpse, cutting off a finger and growing a full body from it using healing (magical girl mitosis), and creating a body completely from scratch (using a grief scanner and 3D printer).

3) The scene in Sabrina's barrier makes me think of Sayaka's transformation scene into Octavia. Essentially the gem takes over, the body hangs limp and the new 'self' which is the main body and the barrier encompasses the gem which then discards the old body and the old identity. Familiars and everywhere inside of the barrier are part of the 'mind' of the witch, the main body just being a functional focus point around which its 'thoughts' and 'dreams' enfold. Create your perfect world...
Sabrina creating a Barrier and populating a Labyrinth has a lot of similarities to a witch doing the same. But there are also some important differences. Our gem doesn't explode and we don't abandon our body. We don't create Familiars. The resulting Labyrinth is not inimical to life and has a more realistic style than any of the Labyrinths that we've seen (except for Homura's, and she wasn't exactly a witch at the time). We also have complete control over our Barrier and Labyrinth, which is an ability that has not been demonstrated by any witch that we've seen thus far.

4) Has it ever been thought of or proposed that we should try to make familiars of our own?
The idea is brought up occasionally. Given that we can make a Barrier, it should be possible to make Familiars as well. But that doesn't mean that it would be wise to do so. Most witch familiars are antithetical to human life, and even if our familiars are different, there's still the whole ethical question of whether we ought to create new life.

Now one of the most interesting things is basically the existence of the 'Grief Spiral' which is basically the defining factor point at which a Magical girl crosses over into witch-dom, that self-obsessed moment of absolute despair unable to see anything but their own misfortunes until they retreat into their 'happy place'. Reaching out to the Grief-Seed seems to me to be like reaching out directly to a Soul gem separated from it's body. Ie the person is there... but they're insensate, because they literally have no senses, not body with which their Soul can express itself.
Note that "Grief Spiral" has generally been used (in this thread) to talk about the point in time where a magical girl gets depressed and starts the exponential buildup of grief in the soul gem, like Sayaka did in canon in the days leading up to her demise. We use the phrase "witchout" for the actual transformation into a witch.

Also I'm kinda curious as to what the effect of creating a witch's barrier within a witch's barrier would be like.
I also am curious, but that experiment would probably be risky and I would say that (if we ever get around to experimenting with Barriers again), we should first try to setup a Barrier next to the witch's barrier before trying to setup one from inside. This would test Mami's "lightning rod" theory.

Maybe we should try to investigate the connection between Sabrina's own body and soul-gem or try something similar so that she has a better understanding of the connection between these two things.
Agreed. One experiment that we have been meaning to try is to see if the 100m grief control range extends from the gem or the body (or both). If you can think of any other experiments we can do in order to better understand that connection, then please feel free to suggest them.

One thing I'm fairly sure of though, a Witch won't just 'revert' to a magical girl... even if fixed... I'm pretty sure we'd be looking at a completely new type of entity either way.
It might be a bit different than a magical girl (we have removed a lot of grief from a clear seed which presumably would have been present in the soul gem, for one thing), but it would still be a soul within a rock connected to a body, and it would (presumably) still have magical powers, so the resulting entity would still be more similar to a magical girl than it would be to anything else that we know about. But in any case: as long as the person retains their memory and sanity, then I'll be happy.
 
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Ehhhhhhhh what? That sounds like it would be pretty big cop-out.

Also, I don't see the benefit in "proving ourselves of use" to the incubators. Providing them information on what we can do is pretty much always a bad idea, since information is their weapon. Homura probably thought that telling Kyubey about the old system was harmless, and then she woke up in a science experiment. Give the incubators information at your own risk.
Exactly, ethics are so far down the line for the Incubators that it's likely that their "ethics" only exist at all is that any less ethical means would be less efficient.

I agree that we're not likely to make progress with dewitching until we have a body. But I would prefer to have an actual flesh-and-blood body to use rather than a grief/magic simulacrum. Current possibilities for creating a body include: repurposing a corpse, cutting off a finger and growing a full body from it using healing (magical girl mitosis), and creating a body completely from scratch (using a grief scanner and 3D printer).
Is it bad that now I want to grow a clone just to see what happens?
 
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Exactly, ethics are so far down the line for the Incubators that it's likely that their "ethics" only exist at all is that any less ethical means would be less efficient.

This is true of all biology. Kindness exists because it is a beneficial thing to have biologically speaking. Ethics and codes of conduct normally emerge from what is useful over all to all parties where either party could find itself denied something by the other.
 
This is true of all biology. Kindness exists because it is a beneficial thing to have biologically speaking. Ethics and codes of conduct normally emerge from what is useful over all to all parties where either party could find itself denied something by the other.
There's a difference between what evolved because it was selected for (even before we get into stuff like the tragedy of the commons and all that) and that which is deliberately designed to be efficient. We suspect that the reason the Incubators display "ethics" is because they have deliberately decided that it's more efficient and they didn't naturally evolve in their species at all. It's not a biology thing. It's something they sat down and calculated themselves.

EDIT:^ Yeah, that too. When we have ethics discussions, it doesn't work out well normally.
 
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I got an alert from someone quoting me in here, but I'm a bit over a hundred pages behind at the moment. This is a message to let whomever did the quoting know that I probably won't be responding for a while until I catch up.
 
There's a difference between what evolved because it was selected for (even before we get into stuff like the tragedy of the commons and all that) and that which is deliberately designed to be efficient. We suspect that the reason the Incubators display "ethics" is because they have deliberately decided that it's more efficient and they didn't naturally evolve in their species at all. It's not a biology thing. It's something they sat down and calculated themselves.

EDIT:^ Yeah, that too. When we have ethics discussions, it doesn't work out well normally.
Our ethics should boil down to 'hug Mami more' and 'Help everyone'. :p
 
Our ethics should boil down to 'hug Mami more' and 'Help everyone'. :p
I do wonder what would happen to the others though, if they ended up in Deldore's barrier, I do know that us witching out is a bad end, but it would be interesting to ponder the effects of our minds would have upon the witch.
 
That. Was. Awesome.

And? Unfortunately for you, it only makes me want to do it more.
So cool~ eeeeeeeee
Thanks. I was hoping that a bit of omake would get a better reaction than just another example of dredging up an issue from hundreds of pages back (although some of the other posts in this neighborhood seem to imply it's become relevant again, so...)

That said, I don't think it would work anything like that, because I don't believe Sabrina would ever be desperate enough to learn about the feathers to seriously consider witching herself out as a test.

The healing rod/amplifier gauntlet tests worked because absent any reason for them not to work Sabrina would've gone right ahead and tried them. Alternately, those tests didn't work and Oriko just didn't want to be Sabrina's guinea pig. Which, IMO, is fair enough aside from the annoying setback to grief SCIENCE.

Edit:
I got an alert from someone quoting me in here, but I'm a bit over a hundred pages behind at the moment. This is a message to let whomever did the quoting know that I probably won't be responding for a while until I catch up.
Which puts you about 700 pages ahead of me at the time of writing. No worries.
 
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