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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Agent Whiskers said:
We know that she's almost certainly telling the truth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we know we can trust her. We shouldn't lie, yes, but that doesn't mean we can't be sensitive to Homura's feeling here. Unless you want to make the same mistake as last time.
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Except that the vote says that we would LIKE to but we know we cant. Best of both worlds in that we arent hiding our opinion, arent weighing in against Homu, and still get cooperation with Oriko after this. If anything the vote acknowledges Homus concerns about Orikos trustworthiness.

Onmur said:
This doesn't mean much. She's there because she chooses to.

Sounds like an empty promise.

Need to think on this one.
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It still gives us a safety net, and something to point to.

It isnt. If she works against us we really WOULD need to rock her and Kirika if only for their own safety from an enraged Homura.
 
Ugolino said:
Except that the vote says that we would LIKE to but we know we cant. Best of both worlds in that we arent hiding our opinion, arent weighing in against Homu, and still get cooperation with Oriko after this. If anything the vote acknowledges Homus concerns about Orikos trustworthiness.


It still gives us a safety net, and something to point to.

It isnt. If she works against us we really WOULD need to rock her and Kirika if only for their own safety from an enraged Homura.
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I'm pretty sure that he called it empty, because by the time we find out if she is actively working against us, it might be too late. Which is why Homura was concerned the last time we said it.
 
Agent Whiskers said:
I'm pretty sure that he called it empty, because by the time we find out if she is actively working against us, it might be too late. Which is why Homura was concerned the last time we said it.
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Emphasis on might be- I think we would have enough warning to go after her or at least keep Madoka safe...and the knowledge of how we would react to any shenanigans would hopefully deter Oriko.

Edited again though.
 
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Ugolino said:
It isnt. If she works against us we really WOULD need to rock her and Kirika if only for their own safety from an enraged Homura.
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Homura's concern is Madoka's life. There's nothing we can do about that if Oriko decides to kill Madoka. Yes, we've pointed out in the past that if Oriko wanted Madoka dead, she'd be dead already, but that didn't help assuage Homura's fears.
You snort. "If she wanted to kill Madoka? Madoka would be dead," you say.

Homura's eyes harden. Before you can respond, she snarls in your face "I- she has!" She leans forward in the greatest display of emotion you've ever seen from her. Separated as you are by a single arm length, she's nearly shouting in your face. "She has k-killed Madoka! And you want to bring her back?"

"Yes, she did!" you snap back. "After she'd been driven into a corner, after she lost Kirika, after she lost everything! Do you want to see what she has left now? What traps she set up in event of her death? She said she was hiring someone - maybe she left instructions 'in event of my death'?"

"And I'll stop-"

"I'm not done," you snap. "And Sayaka. If she wanted Sayaka dead? Sayaka would be dead. She wouldn't have used a fire, or left some note justifying it. Maybe we have to kill her, and Kirika too. I don't want to have to do that. But if it comes down to it? I'll... help you with it. But the big question is - why? She must have a reason, and I'm not supporting her, but there must be a reason! If we know that, then we can stop whatever she has planned."

"Homura, please, trust me," you plead. "Yes, Oriko killed Madoka, once. If it comes down to it, if they're a danger to those we... know... I'll help you. But before it comes to that, I want to try, Homura."

Homura sighs, anger seeming to fade somewhat. "Kindness and idealism have no reward. You know what's happened, so you know that," she says tiredly, closing her eyes. Just as you're about to protest, though, she holds up a hand, and you bite back any comments you might have made. "I... I've trusted you this far, and..." she swallows hard, "you've done better than I have, so far. I, we'll try this your way."
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Ninja'd.

...

Honestly, Homura's doing what we want because of that last line here, that we're doing better than her so far. I doubt she understands why. I don't know if now is the right time, but we should point out we understand Oriko to an extent. ("Sometimes I've wondered if we are all that different-" *BANG*)

And Oriko... I trust her a little. And really, that comes from the fact that: a) she's accepted her own death; b) we beat her quite throughly. I think she's seen the sheer futility of her own stupid plans, and we're pretty much the only option she's got left.

chocolote12 said:
...Could somebody please remind me of a time when Oriko lied to us? I can't remember.
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you frown at the seer. "You hired someone. Who and why? Where have you been going?"

She laughs. Demurely, with one hand covering her mouth, and it turns into a harsh, racking cough a moment later -that one bullet hole through her lung, you figure-, but she laughs. "I lied."

"You what," you say blankly.

"I wanted you in Kasamino," Oriko says. "So I lied. Or, rather, I asked Kirika to lie to you. Then we went on a date, and after that, bought some fertilizer."
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You know... we have better reasons to believe 'Feathers' exists than Oriko's word. Are gonna come clean with that at some point?

We don't know what's causing this in-universe, but could we say we with relative certainty that the reason why Oriko poped up as enemy this loop and why 'Feathers' is a thing is the same reason why Sabrina exists at all? (It's all somebody's game, not that we need to share that.)
 
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Hmm, here's a question. If we start trying to explain everything, but we hit a point where our logic involves things that are Homura's secrets, would this be a good time to pressure her to tell Mami some of those (in timestop, of course)?
 
Onmur said:
You know... we have better reasons to believe 'Feathers' exists than Oriko's word. Are gonna come clean with that at some point?

We don't know what's causing this in-universe, but could we say we with relative certainty that the reason why Oriko poped up as enemy this loop and why 'Feathers' is a thing is the same reason why Sabrina exists at all? (It's all somebody's game, not that we need to share that.)
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We kind of did and ehhh actually Im not all that sure.

We need to tell Mami we think we were spawned from someones wish after we drop the metabomb on her before that though- which should happen sometime soonish.

justinkal said:
Hmm, here's a question. If we start trying to explain everything, but we hit a point where our logic involves things that are Homura's secrets, would this be a good time to pressure her to tell Mami some of those (in timestop, of course)?
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We did, it didnt take. We need to start with our own secrets first for now.
 
[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere about helping you and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.

This whole thing is starting to give me a headache.

Curse our diplomacy skills.:mad::V
 
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@Agent Whiskers
Feels much too impersonal... :(

Like I get that its playing things safe but it doesnt read like a human reaction or really answer the implicit question. I dont like how its a politicans answer.
 
I'm going to start off by apologizing for this being a random interrupt to the thread's train of thought, because I'm still working my way through the thread and am back here:
Firnagzen said:
Lich- & QB-bombed Mami whispers, "Don't l-leave m-me."
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So there's every possibility that some/most of this has been shown hilariously wrong because of the next 1500 or so pages.

qsurf said:
I wish that no one on this world, especially you Incubator, knew or remembered that I exist.
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I've read her story. Amazingly glad that one got no support. (Yes, it's Friendship is Magic fanfiction. It's also a cosmic horror story, and by the end not even the protagonist remembers who she is from minute to minute.)

I was kinda convinced that Oriko's plan was to use Sabrina to stabilize the Mitakihara megucas and then convince them that all the bad things 'Oriko' did were really done by Sabrina (since nobody else had interacted with Oriko/Kirika). What her ultimate goal was afterwards still wasn't clear, and it was a flawed plan because Homura never would have bought it for a couple reasons. Either way the hypothesis collapsed when she allowed Mami to spot her at the Miki fire.

Lunch, the day after the Miki fire. That whole sequence made me wonder if part of Homura's issue there was that she was startled to realize that she was starting to have very similar feelings for Sabrina as she has for Madoka. More specifically, how Moemura felt about a Madoka who was her equal and partner instead of an unattainable goal. Consider, too, that (assuming Kyubey dropped the bomb that the loops pumped up Madoka's potential) as far as Homura was concerned Sabrina was the culmination of everything she'd been fighting for, as the avatar of almost!canon!Madoka's wish. Heck, Sabrina even gave her Madokami's "I've seen all you did and I think that proves you're a good person" speech, something this Homura missed out on.

Point is, there's lots of possibilities there for Homura's fears besides hiding herself from yet another iteration of Madoka. Such as her regarding Sabrina as yet another iteration of Madoka. Or just a true friend who's pushing her away (in the direction of Madoka, true, but away.)

Or maybe Homura was just weirded out that Sabrina ships her two moms.

This one is not a post-facto "the thread is so stupid" thing; I didn't realize this, either, until after Mami started griefing out, but it really wasn't necessary to drop the QB bomb at the same time as the lich bomb. In fact, doing so probably made the lich bomb itself hit even harder (and by extension, the guilt over encouraging other girls to contract).

Alternate strategy: "Yeah, Kyubey didn't tell you because, hey, alien, and he didn't think it would matter. And honestly, I don't disagree."

Advantages: Plays down the idea that it's hugely important, and doesn't pull her admittedly one-sided friendship with Kyubey out from under her.

Problems: "Kyubey's an alien? Not just a magical bunnycat? Does that mean witches are aliens, too?" Plus it leaves Mami believing Kyubey is her friend, and probably makes it harder/worse for Sabrina to detonate that bomb later.

Random factoid: Dedolere is also a conjugation of dedolo, which apparently means "to hew away or smooth." Mind you, I don't think people generally name things using the second-person singular present passive subjunctive.

Discuss! Or not. You've got trauma to earn, feels to experience, and a corrupt system to overthrow. Possibly in that order. I'm heading back to October.
 
Agent Whiskers said:
This whole thing is starting to give me a headache.
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Oh! Oh! Let me try!

[] Long suffering sigh. We wish we could trust her. We want to, and we have enough reasons to actually believe she might have... not turned over a new leaf, but accepted her methods were wrong. (Expand?)
-[] At the end, she's powerful: She's too useful to not let her help and too dangerous to let her go. But really not fooling anybody, we simply want her to have a second chance (meaningful look at Homura). She screwed up once. We quite thoroughly broke her for it and she's been doing her best for us since then.
[] Other than that... We have reasons to believe this 'Feathers' threat is very real. Aside from the very out of place Feather we've found earlier in quite a naturally-impossible way. Frankly, we first woke up knowing we had an enemy out there, and we pretty much recognized Oriko as our enemy first we saw her. We... know this other threat is the same. It's there, and we need to defeat it.

Agent Whiskers said:
Curse our diplomacy skills.:mad::V
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+1
 
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Agent Whiskers said:
...Mine practically says the same thing as yours.:V It was also meant to be bullet point answer, but it kind of got away from me.
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Well yeah but presentation :p

Boobah said:
I'm going to start off by apologizing for this being a random interrupt to the thread's train of thought, because I'm still working my way through the thread and am back here:


So there's every possibility that some/most of this has been shown hilariously wrong because of the next 1500 or so pages.

I've read her story. Amazingly glad that one got no support. (Yes, it's Friendship is Magic fanfiction. It's also a cosmic horror story, and by the end not even the protagonist remembers who she is from minute to minute.)

I was kinda convinced that Oriko's plan was to use Sabrina to stabilize the Mitakihara megucas and then convince them that all the bad things 'Oriko' did were really done by Sabrina (since nobody else had interacted with Oriko/Kirika). What her ultimate goal was afterwards still wasn't clear, and it was a flawed plan because Homura never would have bought it for a couple reasons. Either way the hypothesis collapsed when she allowed Mami to spot her at the Miki fire.

Lunch, the day after the Miki fire. That whole sequence made me wonder if part of Homura's issue there was that she was startled to realize that she was starting to have very similar feelings for Sabrina as she has for Madoka. More specifically, how Moemura felt about a Madoka who was her equal and partner instead of an unattainable goal. Consider, too, that (assuming Kyubey dropped the bomb that the loops pumped up Madoka's potential) as far as Homura was concerned Sabrina was the culmination of everything she'd been fighting for, as the avatar of almost!canon!Madoka's wish. Heck, Sabrina even gave her Madokami's "I've seen all you did and I think that proves you're a good person" speech, something this Homura missed out on.

Point is, there's lots of possibilities there for Homura's fears besides hiding herself from yet another iteration of Madoka. Such as her regarding Sabrina as yet another iteration of Madoka. Or just a true friend who's pushing her away (in the direction of Madoka, true, but away.)

Or maybe Homura was just weirded out that Sabrina ships her two moms.

This one is not a post-facto "the thread is so stupid" thing; I didn't realize this, either, until after Mami started griefing out, but it really wasn't necessary to drop the QB bomb at the same time as the lich bomb. In fact, doing so probably made the lich bomb itself hit even harder (and by extension, the guilt over encouraging other girls to contract).

Alternate strategy: "Yeah, Kyubey didn't tell you because, hey, alien, and he didn't think it would matter. And honestly, I don't disagree."

Advantages: Plays down the idea that it's hugely important, and doesn't pull her admittedly one-sided friendship with Kyubey out from under her.

Problems: "Kyubey's an alien? Not just a magical bunnycat? Does that mean witches are aliens, too?" Plus it leaves Mami believing Kyubey is her friend, and probably makes it harder/worse for Sabrina to detonate that bomb later.

Random factoid: Dedolere is also a conjugation of dedolo, which apparently means "to hew away or smooth." Mind you, I don't think people generally name things using the second-person singular present passive subjunctive.

Discuss! Or not. You've got trauma to earn, feels to experience, and a corrupt system to overthrow. Possibly in that order. I'm heading back to October.
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Ehhh, the lichbomb thing was kind of tied up in the Kyubey bomb...because Kyubeys friendship with her was actively toxic and the lichbomb was practically us declaring war on him. In hindsight yes we pulled the rug out too hard from under Mami with consequences that havent gone away but it did succeed in the main goal of getting the white rat away from where he could hurt her and manipulate her.

And yeah Sabrina did have a discount Madoka moment...and cited Godoka to boot, though theres no way Homura is ever going to know just why we were so certain Madoka would be proud.
 
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Boobah said:
I'm going to start off by apologizing for this being a random interrupt to the thread's train of thought, because I'm still working my way through the thread and am back here:


So there's every possibility that some/most of this has been shown hilariously wrong because of the next 1500 or so pages.

I've read her story. Amazingly glad that one got no support. (Yes, it's Friendship is Magic fanfiction. It's also a cosmic horror story, and by the end not even the protagonist remembers who she is from minute to minute.)

I was kinda convinced that Oriko's plan was to use Sabrina to stabilize the Mitakihara megucas and then convince them that all the bad things 'Oriko' did were really done by Sabrina (since nobody else had interacted with Oriko/Kirika). What her ultimate goal was afterwards still wasn't clear, and it was a flawed plan because Homura never would have bought it for a couple reasons. Either way the hypothesis collapsed when she allowed Mami to spot her at the Miki fire.

Lunch, the day after the Miki fire. That whole sequence made me wonder if part of Homura's issue there was that she was startled to realize that she was starting to have very similar feelings for Sabrina as she has for Madoka. More specifically, how Moemura felt about a Madoka who was her equal and partner instead of an unattainable goal. Consider, too, that (assuming Kyubey dropped the bomb that the loops pumped up Madoka's potential) as far as Homura was concerned Sabrina was the culmination of everything she'd been fighting for, as the avatar of almost!canon!Madoka's wish. Heck, Sabrina even gave her Madokami's "I've seen all you did and I think that proves you're a good person" speech, something this Homura missed out on.

Point is, there's lots of possibilities there for Homura's fears besides hiding herself from yet another iteration of Madoka. Such as her regarding Sabrina as yet another iteration of Madoka. Or just a true friend who's pushing her away (in the direction of Madoka, true, but away.)

Or maybe Homura was just weirded out that Sabrina ships her two moms.

This one is not a post-facto "the thread is so stupid" thing; I didn't realize this, either, until after Mami started griefing out, but it really wasn't necessary to drop the QB bomb at the same time as the lich bomb. In fact, doing so probably made the lich bomb itself hit even harder (and by extension, the guilt over encouraging other girls to contract).

Alternate strategy: "Yeah, Kyubey didn't tell you because, hey, alien, and he didn't think it would matter. And honestly, I don't disagree."

Advantages: Plays down the idea that it's hugely important, and doesn't pull her admittedly one-sided friendship with Kyubey out from under her.

Problems: "Kyubey's an alien? Not just a magical bunnycat? Does that mean witches are aliens, too?" Plus it leaves Mami believing Kyubey is her friend, and probably makes it harder/worse for Sabrina to detonate that bomb later.

Random factoid: Dedolere is also a conjugation of dedolo, which apparently means "to hew away or smooth." Mind you, I don't think people generally name things using the second-person singular present passive subjunctive.

Discuss! Or not. You've got trauma to earn, feels to experience, and a corrupt system to overthrow. Possibly in that order. I'm heading back to October.
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Not dropping the lichbomb and QB-bomb together would have been worse. I mean, the lichbomb would have already seriously shaken her trust with Kyubey, but Mami being Mami, she would have still been inclined to treat and think of Kyubey as a friend--setting a rather dangerous precedent for her (that we would end up shattering later, no less). Fact is, the two bombs are directly tied to each other for Mami--telling her one without telling the other leaves us as dishonest for withholding one of the critical pieces of evidence (and significance) for what we do claim.

Plus, there's the effect it had on Homura afterwards. It must have caused her to really rethink her assumptions about secrecy always being the safer, better option--that we could drop both bombs on Mami of all people, at the same time, and that she would still be alive and mostly functional afterwards. Additionally, the fact that Mami no longer trusted or liked Kyubey in any sense anymore means that the rat has no major avenue of indirect action to take against Homura. That Mami is now readily inclined to trust, help, and show kindness towards Homura and not Kyubey must feel very surreal but surprisingly refreshing to her, too.
 
Onmur said:
Oh! Oh! Let me try!

[X] Long suffering sigh. We wish we could trust her. We want to, and we have enough reasons to actually believe she might have... not turned over a new leaf, but accepted her methods were wrong. (Expand?)
-[X] At the end, she's powerful: She's too useful to not let her help and too dangerous to let her go. But really not fooling anybody, we simply want her to have a second chance (meaningful look at Homura). She screwed up once. We quite thoroughly broke her for it and she's been doing her best for us since then.
[X] Other than that... We have reasons to believe this 'Feathers' threat is very real. Aside from the very out of place Feather we've found earlier in quite a naturally-impossible way. Frankly, we first woke up knowing we had an enemy out there, and we pretty much recognized Oriko as our enemy first we saw her. We... know this other threat is the same. It's there, and we need to defeat it.


+1
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Woah there. If we're going to actually be discussing the Feather, enter fucking timestop.

Homura and Mami are right there and willing.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Not dropping the lichbomb and QB-bomb together would have been worse. I mean, the lichbomb would have already seriously shaken her trust with Kyubey, but Mami being Mami, she would have still been inclined to treat and think of Kyubey as a friend--setting a rather dangerous precedent for her (that we would end up shattering later, no less). Fact is, the two bombs are directly tied to each other for Mami--telling her one without telling the other leaves us as dishonest for withholding one of the critical pieces of evidence (and significance) for what we do claim.

Plus, there's the effect it had on Homura afterwards. It must have caused her to really rethink her assumptions about secrecy always being the safer, better option--that we could drop both bombs on Mami of all people, at the same time, and that she would still be alive and mostly functional afterwards. Additionally, the fact that Mami no longer trusted or liked Kyubey in any sense anymore means that the rat has no major avenue of indirect action to take against Homura. That Mami is now readily inclined to trust, help, and show kindness towards Homura and not Kyubey must feel very surreal but surprisingly refreshing to her, too.
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We were incredible blunt about it, though. It was probably that revelation in particular that ended turning her into a limpet. I think she was more upset about him being an emotionless abomination that was using her than about the soul gem thing. Still, yeah, she definitely needed to know.
 
Can we leave the Mami bomb discussion for after we deal with this one? It's kind of sadness inducing...

[q] Hug Mami and Homura until you feel better.
 
Yay... we made Sabrina a fitting PMMM character...

By giving her Mami-tier levels of pokerfacing her worries, having her agonize over past mistakes, and worry if she can actually succeed. Yay. :(
 
@Onmur that plan is simple yet effective in what most of us want to convey

I approve



Boobah said:
Random factoid: Dedolere is also a conjugation of dedolo, which apparently means "to hew away or smooth." Mind you, I don't think people generally name things using the second-person singular present passive subjunctive.
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and that is partly why i fear what witch sabrina may become, as the more benevolent seeming the witch is the more frightening it is.

an example gretchen the witch of salvation who destroys worlds to bring everyone to 'paradise' aka her barrier.
 
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Ugolino said:
Yay... we made Sabrina a fitting PMMM character...

By giving her Mami-tier levels of pokerfacing her worries, having her agonize over past mistakes, and worry if she can actually succeed. Yay. :(
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To be fair, there are a good number of the parts of her mind who are optimistic about life and are quite willing to keep trying!
 
noahgab1133 said:
@Onmur that plan is simple yet effective in what most of us want to convey

I approve

[X] Onmur



and that is partly why i fear what witch sabrina may become, as the more benevolent seeming the witch is the more frightening it is.

an example gretchen the witch of salvation who destroys worlds to bring everyone to 'paradise' aka her barrier.
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Sorry, I retired the vote. I mostly threw it there so it could be shredded up and used for parts.

EDIT: Also, Salty says we should timestop if we're to talk about Feathers. Sounds about right.
 
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I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.
 
Hannz said:
I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.
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"Is there something wrong, Homura?"

Another long pause.

"Yes," Homura says, still facing away. "That shouldn't have happened." She glances back over her shoulder at you, tilting her head to do so.
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We all agree that this shouldn't have happened. Oriko and Sabrina think it's Feather's that caused this.
 
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