I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.
By showing her the feather that came out of our barrier that we didn't make? The only way Oriko could be lying about it being a threat is if she was lying about not being able to tell what we're going to do in the future...
 
I'm having a hard time gathering my thoughts and presenting counterpoints so I'll concede. In the meantime, have this pic since I can't think of anything to contribute at the moment.

 
I'm having a hard time gathering my thoughts and presenting counterpoints so I'll concede. In the meantime, have this pic since I can't think of anything to contribute at the moment.

:o Nope! Nope! Nope! Nope!

Now I really want to see Sabrina's reaction to this appearing in her head, based on everybody else's reaction. Because this is grounds for a minor application of brain bleach, except we can't be brain bleached. The horror.
 
I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.
We've mentioned the feather we found to Homura and Mami before - it was at the in-person talk with Oriko.

We haven't shown anyone the actual feather, though.

[] At some point, check that the secured feather hasn't evaporated / disappeared on us.
 
I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.

because it is the most likely cause of all the strange stuff that just happened. There is no way oriko could deliberately plant that feather there and she was terrified of it.

showing homura the feather make be the first step in making her and oriko well not friends but not enemies either and that is necessary if we want to whoop wallymart and feathers ass!
 
...Could somebody please remind me of a time when Oriko lied to us? I can't remember.
Two times that I can remember.
1. She lied about hiring mercenaries (which Onmur quoted).
2. She also lied to Mami:
"She wasn't in any danger," Oriko states.

You give her a sharp look - didn't she say that she couldn't predict you? She returns to you an imperturbable, unruffled look, and a telepathic message. "I'm lying."

Of course, trust is not based solely on whether or not someone has lied before. Sabrina has also lied (e.g. she said that Madoka and Sayaka's introduction to the magical world was a "coincidence").

Woah there. If we're going to actually be discussing the Feather, enter fucking timestop.

Homura and Mami are right there and willing.
Even if we don't discuss the Feather, this entire conversation should be done in timestop. We're talking about a schism in relationships (and perhaps a possible resolution) between the Homura and Mami and Sabrina and Oriko and Kirika. The more that Kyuubey knows, the more he can use that information to try to break us apart in the future. He probably already has a pretty good idea of what's going on, but let's not give away any of this stuff for free.

We were incredible blunt about it, though. It was probably that revelation in particular that ended turning her into a limpet. I think she was more upset about him being an emotionless abomination that was using her than about the soul gem thing. Still, yeah, she definitely needed to know.
Mami was going to be unhappy with these revelations no matter how they were phrased or timed. Her response (anger at Kyuubey, dislike of secrets, crying, transfer of the reliance that she had on Kyuubey to Sabrina) was a relatively healthy outcome, all things considered. Mami's reaction seemed a bit extreme at the time primarily because we hadn't realized how much Mami had been relying on Kyuubey before that point (it was the only one to attend her birthday party:cry:).
 
Two times that I can remember.
1. She lied about hiring mercenaries (which Onmur quoted).
2. She also lied to Mami:


Of course, trust is not based solely on whether or not someone has lied before. Sabrina has also lied (e.g. she said that Madoka and Sayaka's introduction to the magical world was a "coincidence").


Even if we don't discuss the Feather, this entire conversation should be done in timestop. We're talking about a schism in relationships (and perhaps a possible resolution) between the Homura and Mami and Sabrina and Oriko and Kirika. The more that Kyuubey knows, the more he can use that information to try to break us apart in the future. He probably already has a pretty good idea of what's going on, but let's not give away any of this stuff for free.


Mami was going to be unhappy with these revelations no matter how they were phrased or timed. Her response (anger at Kyuubey, dislike of secrets, crying, transfer of the reliance that she had on Kyuubey to Sabrina) was a relatively healthy outcome, all things considered. Mami's reaction seemed a bit extreme at the time primarily because we hadn't realized how much Mami had been relying on Kyuubey before that point (it was the only one to attend her birthday party:cry:).
Speaking of that, when is Mami's Birthday? Cause we need to host a surprise party.
 
I believe it was in June. Past Walpy...
One more reason to create Spiral Energy in the Walpurgisnacht battle (Besides MECHA GURREN ZILLA LAGANN fighting a Daikaiju in the middle of the city and pulling a Giga Drill Breaker for all the people in the shelters to watch in awe* before Kyuubey wind-wipes them): so that we can attend her birthday party this year, guaranteed.

*And, since it's Spiral Energy, we'll get stronger the more people believe in us, so broadcasting the fight to the shelters will give us a huge power-boost as well. Bonus points if we can have somebody record their reactions.
 
I'm confused, why bring up the Feather? Last I checked, Homura thinks Oriko's lying about it and I don't know how we can prove that she isn't.
Because we literally have a Feather in our possession. Which, by the way, we found dropping out of our own Barrier as it was closing/shutting down.

Anyway, I think that now might be a good time for Sabrina to elaborate a little about why she's more inclined to trust Oriko than everyone else. Since we've already explained to both Mami and Homura that we simply...know some things about certain people and events, we need only explain that our thoughts regarding Oriko and Kirika are a result of that. We've seen them at their worst, at their best, and in between. We know what drives them. And in this case, ever since we finally forced Oriko to tell us what she was trying to accomplish, we know what her motivations and justifications are/were. Thus, why we want to trust them, but we're still hesitant to really trust them because we aren't certain about what means/methods Oriko is willing to resort to this time. I think Oriko experiencing that her own precognition is much more fallible than even she had initially realized, as well as our own success, has convinced her that unilateral action on her part is unreliable and not the only--or even best--way to deal with the threats she sees coming.

However, this brings up another avenue for concern: that Sabrina herself is in some way directly tied to the ambiguous, looming threat that Oriko can only see indirectly, that we ourselves just found physical evidence for. Yes, it would be giving Homura cause to doubt Sabrina, but at the same time, being so up-front and honest about it all might cause her to give us the benefit of the doubt that she wouldn't give if she just figured it out on her own.

----

Personally, I'm wondering if there's some kind of multiversal shenanigans going on, such that Sabrina was either created/shaped by Madokami of another universe, then placed in this universe through one of the same "gaps" that let other beings on her level influence other universes through--like Barriers, perhaps. If Feathers is actually Homulcifer from another universe (perhaps even the same one as the Madokami in question), she may have found evidence of the act that sent Sabrina to this universe, and is wondering what Madoka did when she was last free.
 
Anyway, I think that now might be a good time for Sabrina to elaborate a little about why she's more inclined to trust Oriko than everyone else. Since we've already explained to both Mami and Homura that we simply...know some things about certain people and events, we need only explain that our thoughts regarding Oriko and Kirika are a result of that. We've seen them at their worst, at their best, and in between. We know what drives them. And in this case, ever since we finally forced Oriko to tell us what she was trying to accomplish, we know what her motivations and justifications are/were. Thus, why we want to trust them, but we're still hesitant to really trust them because we aren't certain about what means/methods Oriko is willing to resort to this time.

This is exactly what we tried to tell Homu last time.

It ended poorly.
 
I think that now might be a good time for Sabrina to elaborate a little about why she's more inclined to trust Oriko than everyone else. Since we've already explained to both Mami and Homura that we simply...know some things about certain people and events, we need only explain that our thoughts regarding Oriko and Kirika are a result of that. We've seen them at their worst, at their best, and in between. We know what drives them. And in this case, ever since we finally forced Oriko to tell us what she was trying to accomplish, we know what her motivations and justifications are/were. Thus, why we want to trust them, but we're still hesitant to really trust them because we aren't certain about what means/methods Oriko is willing to resort to this time. I think Oriko experiencing that her own precognition is much more fallible than even she had initially realized, as well as our own success, has convinced her that unilateral action on her part is unreliable and not the only--or even best--way to deal with the threats she sees coming.
It's a good point about Oriko being less willing to rely on her precognition because she has been shown that it can fail even when she had been sure that she had already succeeded. We should point that out.

But in terms of motivation, we don't have to rely on meta-knowledge. We can help Homura and Mami come to the same conclusion that we did based on the information that is available to all of us: Oriko's motivation is to fight the "Feathers" threat. The existence of that threat has now been proven to exist beyond reasonable doubt. And it appear that "Feathers" just arranged for Sayaka to be attacked.

As the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend ally of convenience". As long as we share the same enemy, we can trust Oriko to be our ally.
 
So, first of all, we need to have this conversation in timestop. We then address some points from our previous talk with Homura, and try being a bit more gentle about it. No empty promises, no baseless trust in a Madoka killer. Then we show both of them the Feather and ask them about it.
We go over to Oriko's, bring her into the timestop, ask if it's the same one ("Assumptions are dangerous things").
- If it's the same, [EXTERNAL SCREAMING], the possiblility of Dedolere in the future is something we need to fight.
- If it's some other feather, [INTERNAL SCREAMING], Akuma!Homura is influencing our universe.

Then maybe vote prompt, to see what to do next according to the responses?
 
On Kyuubey picture: Tame. I'm not even raising an eyebrow.

On the vote:

[] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[]If she timestops:
-[]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[]That said, it''s true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she is willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away.
--[]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[] Ask for their opinions.
--[]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
-[]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
-[]If Homura refuses timestop, say that I have reasons for thinking that Oriko is telling the truth, but do not wish to discuss them where possible eavesdroppers may be lurking.
 
This is exactly what we tried to tell Homu last time.

It ended poorly.
...bullshit. That was nothing like such an attempt.

Saying, "yeah, I know you're worried, but I don't think there's anything to be worried about" is not "I'm worried too, but I'm trusting her as far as I am because I literally know her and just how far she can sink or rise, including things even YOU don't know about why she did even her worst acts."
Hell, it's more than that, too, because spending only one sentence explaining is an utter failure of an explanation by default. And I don't want to just start repeating an argument word-for-word here pointlessly.

Also, none of that "I'll make sure she doesn't try anything" empty promise bullshit. It's so empty and nonsensical that Homura would see right through it immediately and only see it as a confirmation of her fears. I can't remember if it was tried last time, but if it was, no wonder that conversation went so badly.
 
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Sabrina is pulling a I'm-going-to-contract Madoka on Homura. Except that it's worse.

What is Sabrina to her? Someone who knows what she's gone through, as well as her best chance of taking down Walpurgisnacht. Best chance ever, a chance that probably isn't coming again.
What is Sabrina doing? Constantly putting herself at risk, for the sake of others. Said others include helping random magical girls from other cities, and Oriko.
Spreading around the information that you'll Grief Clean anyone, which is pretty much waiting for Tokyo girls to get a hunting group to lock Sabrina in a basement and use as a Grief Dispenser. Because being willing to help everyone for free, while running around, is not as good as 'locked in our basement'.
Currently, dealing with a random MG that doesn't trust Sabrina, and normally always turns into a witch...
All of these obviously are risks that Homura considers unnecessary. From her view? It doesn't matter how well-meaning and useful Oriko is, Sabrina as she is, is already enough for Walpurgisnacht.

Sabrina's feather-threat-justification of keeping Orika around, to Homura, probably looks like an excuse. Regardless of whether that threat is real or not, it must remind her of Madoka's "I'll throw myself away to save others".

The main reason she's silently putting up with it so far, is because she had crap luck on her own, and Sabrina isn't giving her a choice.

Homura has only one priority, while Sabrina's goals are same as Madoka's, to save everyone/break the system. In that regard, she can't help but doubt Sabrina's decision making/priorities in regards to saving Madoka.

I don't really see any immediate ways to fix that impression; but, Homura will stay put anyway/hold herself together, because she doesn't have much of a choice.
Stress that Madoka is #1 on Sabrina's priority list, and act on it. As little unnecessary risks as possible given Sabrina's character. Can focus on her messiah complex/feathers/what else after Walpurgisnacht is over with. That'll help calming down Mami, too.

Of course, with things happening lately such as Sayaka mysteriously getting transported, there might be a lot of interference in the future, even before Walpurgisnacht...in that case, that interference would be a good way to go about convincing Homura of reality of other threats; once the mystery has been solved, or Oriko has been somehow excluded from being behind what's happening.

As it is now, I don't really see Sabrina convincing Homura of anything, as her decision and perception must look compromised to permanently-paranoid-PTSD'd Homura - as if Sabrina has come to a conclusion about Oriko already, and is interpreting what's happening only as to try and justify that conclusion.

Satisfying her paranoia somewhat, and gathering more facts, before bringing up feathers with her, could be useful. Giving her even more control over Oriko, or something along those lines...

Mentioning a feather that you found in a barrier is probably good, as that's a fact(and Sabrina wouldn't just make that up)...without trying to interpret it, letting Homura draw her own conclusions.
Going for feathers-behind-what-happened-to-Sayaka is way too early. From Homura's POV, Oriko could be behind it just as well.

Well, at least that's my impression :) I could be misreading the situation completely, or reading it worse than it is.
Homura was willing to give Sabrina benefit of the doubt back when she kept Oriko alive, and I'n not sure if I'm interpreting correctly her reaction to things that happened since(Sabrina did put herself at risk more, but she also saved a lot of people...they aren't named Madoka, though).
She does look more insecure and less pleased with the situation, to me.
 
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Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[x] I... I want to trust her. I want to believe anyone can be good, but...
[x] I know I shouldn't trust her. Manipulation has always been her game, and she has lied to me before...
[x] Even if we do have the same goals, she's always been willing to do... horrible things to get what she wants. Things she knows we'd never agree to.
-[x]But she does seem to be helping us and she's still under house arrest. We might not have found out about Sayaka until it was too late, and there were all the other times...And with whatever happened here, we might need her help even more.
-[x] Now? I'm caught in the uncomfortable position of wanting to be careful, but the information and advance warning she provides is just... too useful.
[x] I'll have to be more careful. And not just with Oriko. Something like this is just too out of the ordinary to ignore.
No. of votes: 1
Ugolino

[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.
No. of votes: 3
Agent Whiskers, Muramasa, MrLZRS

[X] Onmur
No. of votes: 1
noahgab1133

Not that many votes yet. Would it still count if I voted
[x] Agent Whiskers
after posting a tally?

Edit: Nope, it doesn't. Gonna re-vote later.
 
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