Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[FlatlineAskari]

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.

Okay. tried to trim it a but, do some reordering for logic and remove some repetition. I also went with the assumption that Homura won't refuse timestop. It's still long, but hopefully better.

Click to shrink...

The content looks pretty good, but I think it's the wrong way around?
First what we know, then what we think.
If we start with the facts and what we can draw from them - stuff that nobody's likely to dispute and which supports our conclusions - those conclusions will get a better reception than if we mix opinion with data.
So; this looks very much like an attack on Sayaka specifically, and is therefore likely to represent an attack on us; Oriko almost certainly wasn't responsible for it; without her intervention, it's highly likely that Sayaka would be dead.
That leads into 'who was responsible', and the feather.
That leads into the opinion-heavy minefield of 'trustworthiness-or-otherwise of Oriko; Round 2'.

 

[boonerunner]

Basically, instead of saying that there isn't any reason to be particularly worried (because of X, Y, or Z), it's saying that there very much IS something to be worried about, but eliminating or locking up a person solely because of the threat she could pose is wrong--something Homura, of all people, should understand.

We could also point out that, if Oriko actually is reforming and making an honest effort of it, treating her like something unlikable and inherently untrustworthy regardless of what she does is likely to make her give up on that effort and just become the very threat we were afraid of.

Click to shrink...

These are reasons that could convince Mami, but I'm less sure how effective they'll be with Homura. Homura (in theory) has a Madoka-centric morality, so if Oriko is more of a threat than a benefit, then Homura thinks that Oriko should be eliminated, even if that would be hypocritical and wrong. In actual practice, Homura's morals aren't quite as Madoka-centric as she likes to think, but when it comes to Oriko (who Homura hates), we don't have much slack to work with. We need to convince Homura that killing Oriko would be wrong, sure, but the more important thing is to convince her that leaving Oriko alive is more of a benefit than it is a threat.

 

[Onmur]

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] I... I want to trust her. I want to believe anyone can be good, but...
[x] I know I shouldn't trust her. Manipulation has always been her game, and she has lied to me before...
[x] Even if we do have the same goals, she's always been willing to do... horrible things to get what she wants. Things she knows we'd never agree to.
-[x]But she does seem to be helping us and she's still under house arrest. We might not have found out about Sayaka until it was too late, and there were all the other times...And with whatever happened here, we might need her help even more.
-[x] Now? I'm caught in the uncomfortable position of wanting to be careful, but the information and advance warning she provides is just... too useful.
[x] I'll have to be more careful. And not just with Oriko. Something like this is just too out of the ordinary to ignore.
No. of votes: 1
Ugolino

[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.
No. of votes: 4
Agent Whiskers, Muramasa, MrLZRS, AnonymousRabbit

[X] Sayaka was targeted. There's no way this could have happened by chance. And if it happened once... We need to keep better track of our friends. And while we feel we can trust Oriko enough to keep watch for us, we'd rather not need to rely on her.
[X] Oriko... We have enough reasons to believe she might... not have turned over a new leaf, but understood that her methods were wrong, and that she can't deal with things her way.
-[X] She's powerful: Her skills too valuable to deny and herself too dangerous to let her go free... Who are we kidding, while we do believe that rationally, the truth is we simply want everybody to have a second chance. Oriko (meaningful glance at Homura) has done some bad shit. Once. Then we stopped her, and she's been doing her best to help us since then.
-[X] If we work together, we can achieve better things. I know this, she knows this. We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much.
No. of votes: 1
Onmur

[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] You'd like to give her a second chance and We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much at least.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.
[X] ask homura to timestop and discuss the feather with mami and her.
No. of votes: 2
noahgab1133, boonerunner

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
No. of votes: 1
Sereg

Click to shrink...

@Agent Whiskers
What does this mean?
[] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.


Does nobody else thinks this will go wrong with Homura?

And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this.

Click to shrink...

 

[Sereg]

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] No offense to Sayaka, but she was probably targeted to get to our group.
----[x] I don't believe that this is within Oriko's power to arrange and I don't think she was acting.
-----[x] Sayaka would probably be dead without Oriko's warnings. Who knows how many other people will die if she is no longer able to give those warnings to us?
------[x] This kind of ability isn't something I expected. The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
-------[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted. It does seem to be evidence that she's not just making things up.
--------[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]It's true we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.

Better?

 

[Onmur]

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] No offense to Sayaka, but she was probably targeted to get to our group.
----[x] I don't believe that this is within Oriko's power to arrange and I don't think she was acting.
-----[x] Sayaka would probably be dead without Oriko's warnings. Who knows how many other people will die if she is no longer able to give those warnings to us?
------[x] This kind of ability isn't something I expected. The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
-------[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted. It does seem to be evidence that she's not just making things up.
--------[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]It's true we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.

Better?

Click to shrink...

These parts are kind of aggressive in a 'in your face' kind of way.

Probably redundant.

This feels like lying. We barely know of one instance of Elsa Maria. Our knowledge of this one comes from Oriko.

I feel you're trying to do way too much, and not just because of the super long vote. You're trying to bring up pretty much everything we think about Oriko, when we should only be bringing up the points that would help sway Homura and Mami towards our point of view.

 

[Agent Whiskers]

@Agent Whiskers
What does this mean?
[] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.


Does nobody else thinks this will go wrong with Homura?

Click to shrink...

Sayaka being at home and then suddenly getting all the way to the industrial district.

Also for the latter, it was suppose to refer to Feathers apparently getting significant amount of people killed including Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura. I guess it is kind of vague as is and can be taken the wrong way, so taking it out.

It doesn't really feel like a lot of people have voted. Hopefully someone can come up with a better one because I'm not really completely satisfied with all the current ones.

 

[landcollector]

It doesn't really feel like a lot of people have voted.

Click to shrink...

Probably because Analysis Paralysis. There's really no surefire way to get Homura to ease up on her Oriko ParanoiaTM​.

 

[Sereg]

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]I agree that it shouldn't have happened. Thank goodness Oriko warned us.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
----[x] I don't believe that this is within Oriko's power to arrange and I don't think she was acting.
-----[x] Sayaka would probably be dead without Oriko's warnings.
------[x] This kind of ability isn't something I expected. The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
-------[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted. It does seem to be evidence that she's not just making things up.
--------[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's odd that it acted that way. Oriko also expected it to act differently.
--[x]It's true we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.

Now? We did know Elsa Maria already and it is odd it acted that way.

 

[Onmur]

Sayaka being at home and then suddenly getting all the way to the industrial district.

Click to shrink...

If she got going as soon as the Feather appeared, she had about 40 minutes to walk her way almost to the Witch Barrier... Unless she took a bus, which I... doubt?

Can Witch Kissed people take busses?

Also for the latter, it was suppose to refer to Feathers apparently getting significant amount of people killed including Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura. I guess it is kind of vague as is and can be taken the wrong way, so taking it out.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but Homura would take it meaning Oriko's making up threats so we need to rely on her. Maybe if we acknowledge this? Say that we know there's a chance we might be played for fools, but the risks are too high to not having her tentatively on our side, anyway.

 

[Agent Whiskers]

You're trying to bring up pretty much everything we think about Oriko, when we should only be bringing up the points that would help sway Homura and Mami towards our point of view.

Click to shrink...

IMO, we're not really trying to sway them here (at least not yet) so much as we're just outright explaining our exact stance towards Oriko. Which is that we think she's being truthful and sincere about helping, and yet we're not taking it for granted that she's completely trustworthy. Or at least I think that's what we're suppose to be doing.

 

[boonerunner]

IMO, we're not really trying to sway them here (at least not yet) so much as we're just outright explaining our exact stance towards Oriko. Which is that we think she's being truthful and sincere about helping, and yet we're not taking it for granted that she's completely trustworthy. Or at least I think that's what we're suppose to be doing.

Click to shrink...

It would be nice to get them to be less antagonistic (especially Homura), but yes, the primary goal is to explain our stance. If we are clear enough, though, then we should be able to do both.

 

[Boobah]

Which brings me to Madoka's wish. Who knows about this In Character? Homura and Oriko.

Click to shrink...

At the time this was written (Mami and Oriko's first meeting tea party after Oriko's defeat and capture), it's not clear that Oriko knows that. The only time the wish was mentioned was here, and while Oriko was present, she was stuck in mundane time while the discussion took place in timestop. She might have seen it in her visions... or she might have known no more than she said: That it was important for Homura to discuss the last loop with Sabrina.

Heck, until her head was reconnected, Oriko probably didn't know anything about Homura's alternate timelines. Sabrina let all that spill because she was convinced Oriko already knew everything because, despite Firn's claims to be playing fair with her, the thread was saying that Oriko was reading PMAS.

As a related aside, it's a little nuts how important Oriko thought Homura and Sabrina's friendship was. Not only did she become Sabrina's antagonist so she could influence her without being an impediment to their developing trust, she was literally willing to get both herself and Kirika killed for no other purpose than keeping that trust intact. Happily, that very obstinacy was an important factor in allowing Sabrina to keep Oriko alive while retaining Homura's trust.

Shame that she took so readily to that cryptic obsession that gets issued to magi (especially seers) with their robe and wizard bucket hat.


Also, Salty: the comment about separating the lich and Kyubey bombs for Mami was in no way a hindsight smack to the thread; it was rather I thought it interesting that, from what I saw/recalled, nobody seriously considered not using the lichbomb as a way to burn bridges between Mami and Kyubey.

If it's working out, great. Anything beyond that, well, counter-factual butterflies defy hard analysis.

 

[Onmur]

IMO, we're not really trying to sway them here (at least not yet) so much as we're just outright explaining our exact stance towards Oriko. Which is that we think she's being truthful and sincere about helping, and yet we're not taking it for granted that she's completely trustworthy. Or at least I think that's what we're suppose to be doing.

Click to shrink...

I guess.

From that point of view, my bigges problem with Sereg's vote would be that it's too 'in-your-face' about trying to convince Homura and Mami that Oriko's contributing to the team. Though maybe that's just because the vote's too big.

...

What would the votes look like, condensed?

Vote tally: Condensed edition
##### 3.21
[x] I... I want to trust her, but I shouldn't. Manipulation...
[x] we have the same goals, she's always been willing to do... horrible things to get what she wants.
-[x]But she is helping us. with whatever happened here, we might need her help even more.
-[x] Now? want to be careful, but she is ... too useful.
[x] I'll have to be more careful.
No. of votes: 1
Ugolino

[X] Things are definitely strange here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] you do believe that she was being sincere.
-[X] That doesn't make her any less dangerous.
-[X] There is risk, but she is too valuable. it'd be best to continue being careful with her.
No. of votes: 4
Agent Whiskers, Muramasa, MrLZRS, AnonymousRabbit

[X] There's no way this could have happened by chance. keep better track of our friends. Oriko can keep watch for us, but we'd rather not need to rely on her.
[X] Oriko... understood that her methods were wrong.
-[X] She's powerful: too valuable and too dangerous to let her go... we simply want everybody to have a second chance, and she's been doing her best to help us.
-[X] together, we can achieve better things. she knows this. We... broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much.
No. of votes: 1
Onmur

[X] Things are definitely strange here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] you do believe that she was being sincere.
-[X] That doesn't make her any less dangerous.
-[X] You'd like to give her a second chance and We... broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much at least.
-[X] she and her visions are too valuable. you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying. it'd be best to continue being careful with her.
[X] ask homura to timestop and discuss the feather with mami and her.
No. of votes: 2
noahgab1133, boonerunner

[x]timestops:
-[x]it shouldn't have happened. Thank goodness Oriko warned us.
--[x] we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
------[x] This kind of ability isn't something I expected. The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
-------[x]Show them the feather
--------[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't make us home safe.
--[x]admit knowledge of some witches. I knew that one and it's odd that it acted that way.
--[x]we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side,
---[x]her warnings are too useful to throw away. we may need her.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x] having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good.
--[x]Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict
---[x]second chances , I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong,
---[x] stop Walpurgisnacht and worse than Walpurgisnacht. , we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
No. of votes: 1
Sereg

Click to shrink...

Homura's and Mami's statements, for comparission.

"Yes," Homura says, still facing away. "That shouldn't have happened." She glances back over her shoulder at you, tilting her head to do so.

Mami frowns unhappily. "It's... strange. Especially if Miss Mikuni is telling the truth."

Homura's eyes narrow.

Mami catches the expression. "I don't trust her either, but... she gave us good information. Um, Sabrina?" She looks up from your shoulder.

Click to shrink...

 

[SaltyWaffles]

These are reasons that could convince Mami, but I'm less sure how effective they'll be with Homura. Homura (in theory) has a Madoka-centric morality, so if Oriko is more of a threat than a benefit, then Homura thinks that Oriko should be eliminated, even if that would be hypocritical and wrong. In actual practice, Homura's morals aren't quite as Madoka-centric as she likes to think, but when it comes to Oriko (who Homura hates), we don't have much slack to work with. We need to convince Homura that killing Oriko would be wrong, sure, but the more important thing is to convince her that leaving Oriko alive is more of a benefit than it is a threat.

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...we've literally already done what you're suggesting. What we have left to do in that regard is to convince her to accept that killing Oriko (without due justification/provocation) is wrong. We've already convinced her (as much as we are able) that Oriko is more useful to Homura alive than dead, here.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of wanting to preemptively murder Oriko and Kirika just because they could pose a massive threat in the future is exactly the right way to go for getting Homura to rethink her stance on the issue.

Regardless, that's not the issue at hand. It's about convincing Homura that Sabrina is not letting her guard down around Oriko, is fully aware of the potential threat she poses, and has actual, thorough knowledge about Oriko that justifies why Sabrina is willing to trust her as far as she is (and is eager to give her a fair chance to prove herself).

Probably because Analysis Paralysis. There's really no surefire way to get Homura to ease up on her Oriko ParanoiaTM​.

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I'd give it a shot, but I'm so fucking done with even proposing votes for this quest that I'm not even going to consider it. My experiences with this quest's voting habits has been horrendous enough.

 

[OctarineShrike]

I'm not sure if we want to put any part of this in, but if Homura's aware we're willing to entertain theories of that nature it may be helpful.

Malicious Oriko Theory:

1. Feathers exists. The feather we found after experimentation is proof of this. Feathers is more dangerous than Walpurgisnacht.
2. Just because a threat exists does not mean it will act to cause harm.
3. Given the fact the feather appeared as a result of grief science, a post singularity version of Sabrina meddling with time to ensure her own creation may be a valid scenario.
4. If post-singularity Sabrina is benign, then her concern with Feathers is a diversion for something else. If post singularity Sabrina is an actual enemy, then she wouldn't come out and say this, and is leading us along with the truth until it comes time to lie in a way that causes our destruction.

 

[Ugolino]

I'm not sure if we want to put any part of this in, but if Homura's aware we're willing to entertain theories of that nature it may be helpful.

Malicious Oriko Theory:

1. Feathers exists. The feather we found after experimentation is proof of this. Feathers is more dangerous than Walpurgisnacht.
2. Just because a threat exists does not mean it will act to cause harm.
3. Given the fact the feather appeared as a result of grief science, a post singularity version of Sabrina meddling with time to ensure her own creation may be a valid scenario.
4. If post-singularity Sabrina is benign, then her concern with Feathers is a diversion for something else. If post singularity Sabrina is an actual enemy, then she wouldn't come out and say this, and is leading us along with the truth until it comes time to lie in a way that causes our destruction.

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Not sure how sharing any of that helps...but definitely not right here and now.

Also, I have doubts that a Feathers-From-Sabrina is anything but malevolent.

 

[Onmur]

We're being so indecisive Sabrina's gonna stutter her way through this conversation.

Well, maybe not. For all that there's like, nine votes, we seem to agree on the main points we want to hit.

 

[boonerunner]

...we've literally already done what you're suggesting. What we have left to do in that regard is to convince her to accept that killing Oriko (without due justification/provocation) is wrong. We've already convinced her (as much as we are able) that Oriko is more useful to Homura alive than dead, here.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of wanting to preemptively murder Oriko and Kirika just because they could pose a massive threat in the future is exactly the right way to go for getting Homura to rethink her stance on the issue.

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Oh, I agree that we've talked to Homura about Oriko's usefulness before. And we've also talked about second chances and what we know of Oriko's motivations.

Here is Homura's primary objection to Oriko:

Homura shakes her head, a single sharp jerk to the side. "I... Oriko killed Madoka once. It... she isn't necessary. She k-killed Madoka. She could still be dangerous."

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Homura's primary objection to Oriko is that she considers her to (possibly) be more dangerous to Madoka than helpful. That is the attitude that needs to change and it won't change just by pointing out that killing Oriko would be hypocritical and wrong.

Regardless, that's not the issue at hand. It's about convincing Homura that Sabrina is not letting her guard down around Oriko, is fully aware of the potential threat she poses, and has actual, thorough knowledge about Oriko that justifies why Sabrina is willing to trust her as far as she is (and is eager to give her a fair chance to prove herself).

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I basically agree except that I would add that Homura knows all of the same basic facts that we do. It's not a question of knowledge but rather a question of perspective and how to interpret that knowledge.

 

[DracoDracul]

@Onmur

and that is partly why i fear what witch sabrina may become, as the more benevolent seeming the witch is the more frightening it is.

an example gretchen the witch of salvation who destroys worlds to bring everyone to 'paradise' aka her barrier.

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That makes me wonder if there is a witch out there that's like the Witch of Torture and has a nature of Wanton Cruelty that lures people into it's barrier, gives that a neck massage and a light snack and then lets them back out.

 

[TJSomething]

[x] Sereg

It's a little long, but it's really my favorite. It hits every point that I'd like, and due to it's length, it doesn't oversimplify our position on Oriko. I was thinking that a shorter response would allow us to change the message in response to negative feedback, but I'm kind of tired of spending a lot of time coming up with elaborate half-truths. Thanks to that, it's probably more honest.

 

[boonerunner]

Sereg's vote covers a lot of things that I like, but it's still a bit long. Some suggestions:

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]I agree that it shouldn't have happened. Thank goodness Oriko warned us.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.

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good

----[x] I don't believe that this is within Oriko's power to arrange and I don't think she was acting.

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Neither Homura nor Mami has raised this as a concern, so I don't think there is a need for us to discuss this unless they do.

-----[x] Sayaka would probably be dead without Oriko's warnings.
------[x] This kind of ability isn't something I expected.

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We basically said this already, this part can be removed.

The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
-------[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted. It does seem to be evidence that she's not just making things up.
--------[x] Ask for their opinions.

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good

--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.

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This is already covered by the previous talk about the Feather.

--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that

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one and it's odd that it acted that way. Oriko also expected it to act differently.

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It would be nice to talk about our meta-knowledge, but I don't think that now is quite the right time for that and the only thing that we expected differently were the timing appearance and the Witch Kiss, which have already been discussed.

--[x]It's true we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.

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good

----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.

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This is redundant (it's basically a rephrasing of the previous point with the polarity switched).

---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.

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good

--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.

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redundant

--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.

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This is arguable. The difficulty of prediction doesn't mean that Oriko won't won't hurt our friends if she does try something. It primarily means that any plot of hers is less likely to achieve its final goal. Which makes it less likely that she would try in the first place.

---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.

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I don't think that this line is necessary. Perhaps you could rephrase it to something like SaltyWaffles has suggested about pointing out we already gave Oriko a second chance and she has behaved admirably so far and it would be wrong to blame her for the potential danger.

--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.

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good

-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.

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This conditional is unnecessary. For now, Mami and Homura want to talk to us together and we aren't talking about any of the secrets that Homura is keeping from Mami, so we should be fine. If Homura does want to talk to us alone in the following update, then we can address that then.

 

[chocolote12]

[X] Ugolino

Some people should look over their votes and realize that they're going full murder-face on this at the drop of a conversational hat. I'm not saying that I have anything better to say, because I don't, but aren't we supposed to be a little more idealistic than that*?

*For the purposes of this usage of the word, assume idealistic =/= ignorant.

 

[Sereg]

Neither Homura nor Mami has raised this as a concern, so I don't think there is a need for us to discuss this unless they do.

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I do. I want to preempt it. To let them know we've considered the possibility and recognised it as remote. To point out that it isn't Oriko who is the real threat here.

This is already covered by the previous talk about the Feather.

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Hence the reminder. I think it's necessary t keep Homura focused. And Mami wasn't even there.

It would be nice to talk about our meta-knowledge, but I don't think that now is quite the right time for that and the only thing that we expected differently were the timing appearance and the Witch Kiss, which have already been discussed.

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I really want to get this discussed, but fine.

This is arguable. The difficulty of prediction doesn't mean that Oriko won't won't hurt our friends if she does try something. It primarily means that any plot of hers is less likely to achieve its final goal. Which makes it less likely that she would try in the first place.

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Rephrasing.

I don't think that this line is necessary. Perhaps you could rephrase it to something like SaltyWaffles has suggested about pointing out we already gave Oriko a second chance and she has behaved admirably so far and it would be wrong to blame her for the potential danger.

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I disagree, because I don't think Homura would be swayed by that argument. In fact, I think it's more likely to make her consider our perception clouded by wanting to help everyone, even if it risks Madoka. That said, I n make an adjustment.

This conditional is unnecessary. For now, Mami and Homura want to talk to us together and we aren't talking about any of the secrets that Homura is keeping from Mami, so we should be fine. If Homura does want to talk to us alone in the following update, then we can address that then.

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Fine. Adjustments and shortening done.

[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]I agree that it shouldn't have happened. Thank goodness Oriko warned us.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
----[x] I don't believe that this is within Oriko's power to arrange and I don't think she was acting.
-----[x] The only explanation I currently have is that this is the threat Oriko was warning about.
------[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted. It does seem to be evidence that she's not just making things up.
-------[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]It's true we can't trust Oriko completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, so she's less likely to try anything untoward with me around.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason, and she's behaved herself very well since receiving that second chance.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.

EDIT: Expressing idealism is part of what got Homura angry with us last time.

 

[TJSomething]

I like that a bit better.
[x] Sereg

Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict

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We all know that this is because Firnagzen writing Oriko can't predict what we're going to do, but do we know why in character? Could that be important?

 

[Skelm]

[x] Sereg