AnonymousRabbit
Rabbit Faced
[x] Agent Whiskers
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Can she not predict us? I'm pretty sure we only bother her because we change things when we vote.
Why not? She planted a bomb for us to trip once.
I'd like to fiddle with the vote a little.
[X] Sayaka was targeted. There's no way this could have happened by chance. And if it happened once... We need to keep better track of our friends. And while we feel we can trust Oriko enough to keep watch for us, we'd rather not need to rely on her.
[X] Oriko... We have enough reasons to believe she might... not have turned over a new leaf, but understood that her methods were wrong, and that she can't deal with things her way.
-[X] She's powerful: Her skills too valuable to deny and herself too dangerous to let her go free... Who are we kidding, while we do believe that rationally, the truth is we simply want everybody to have a second chance. Oriko (meaningful glance at Homura) has done some bad shit. Once. Then we stopped her, and she's been doing her best to help us since then.
-[X] If we work together, we can achieve better things. I know this, she knows this. We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much.
Obviously, some of these might be purely my views, so critique is welcome.
This part of the Wesker vote:
I don't think it'd work. It's way too easy for Homura to spin that so Oriko is using us, making us reliant on her with lies. Same as when we brought up Kazumi (?), she immediately went for the idea Oriko was making us stretch ourselves thin, distract us.
@noahgab1133 I've got a vote again. If you don't like it, you might want to edit your 'support' vote.
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FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
- Any
Doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Even if Oriko were capable of predicting us with that resolution (and I'm pretty sure she can't) and took about forty levels in acting while we weren't looking (and I'm pretty sure she didn't), the feather showed up, in midair, precisely where the barrier was. Not 'within visual range of where she lured us', like the bomb, exactly there.
We didn't notice it before building the barrier; it couldn't have been placed while we were building the barrier, 'cos Mami was there; barriers don't scoop up preexisting inanimate objects on creation; they don't expel them when they collapse.
Also, that'd imply that -
- Oriko somehow set the feather up purely for shits and giggles, not knowing that an apparently brainhacked witch was about to go after Sayaka, or
- Oriko somehow messed with the witch's behavior herself, as well as planting the feather, with no discernable motive or known mechanism for either, or
- Oriko knew about the anomalous witch in advance, and set up the feather to coincide with it because ... reasons?
.... None of which is a terribly compelling hypothesis.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think you have too much faith in Oriko's common sense while planning things. At the end, we trust Oriko more because of this, that's 'reasons' enough for me.
Mind, I don't believe she did this, just that it's not impossible for her to have planted the feather. With precog powers and magic, it shouldn't even be all that difficult to do.
Gadjo
Doka
Oriko has, explicitly told us, that it is not a witch. It would be a real cop-out if our witch just happened to be a super special witch that wasn't a witch.
- Location
- Latvia
Might want to phrase it differently. Homura doesn't react well to such words, even if they're spoken about someone else.
And the funny part is, this is something that Homura could picture Sabrina say about her. That isn't true, of course, but Homura isn't the most self-confident person around.
Similar example:
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
How about:
[] If we work together, we can achieve better things. I know this, she knows this. We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Salty, the argument was a loser from the get go. Homura didn't want the explanation. Even went so far as to say enough and shut us down hard. The 'We understand Oriko' approach doesn't address the problems Homura's really concerned with. That's why it's a bad approach.
We haven't yet tested this. The lack of bodies for people killed by witches would be evidence that a Witch Barrier does not expel matter within it. But the appearance of the Feather just as we collapsed the Barrier might be evidence for the opposite: that a Barrier can expel things. Maybe our Barrier is different. Or maybe the way that we collapsed it is different from how a Barrier collapses when a Witch is killed. Or maybe the Feather is indestructible in a way that a corpse is not. Or maybe the Feather just happened to be lying on the ground at the point where we had created the entrance to the Barrier. Or maybe it was created by the collapse of the Barrier (somehow). There are a lot of different possibilities and we haven't done any testing to be able to say anything for sure about how Barriers interact with inanimate objects when they collapse.
The first half is fine, but the second half could use some improvement. How about something like "Oriko helped save Sayaka this time, and she might help save someone else in the future. We obviously aren't going to rely on Oriko alone, but she can help."
With respect to methods, we do think that Oriko has "turned over a new leaf", as it were. When it comes to motives, we don't think that she was wrong in the first place.
I don't like the first part and the "Who are we kidding" phrase. And as far as second chances go... we already gave Oriko her second chance. That was what the original showdown with Oriko resulted in. The question that Mami and Homura have now is: was it worth it? Given this second chance, has Oriko actually changed?
This line is okay, but it needs a bit more support before Homura and Mami can accept it.
Points I want to see in a vote:
1. Timestop (for protection from Kyuubey and for Homura's comfort)
2. Oriko's own attempts to save Sayaka's life failed.
3. We cannot rely on precognition for planning, there are too many things that can go wrong. Oriko knows this now.
4. However, we can use precognition to warn us of some possible dangers. That is what allowed us to save Sayaka.
5. Oriko's goal is to stop Walpurgisnacht and the threat that is worse than Walpurgisnacht. These are goals we can all agree on.
6. The Feather is evidence that Oriko is telling the truth.
E: 7. We don't fully trust Oriko (or her precognition), that's why we checked Sayaka's house first.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
That's what I meant...
Hey? Has anybody noticed something weird? Mami apparently does her hair with magic, but when we saw her in her flashback she still had the drill hair. Does that mean that Mami had magic before she contracted?
No, I'm pretty sure that is just an animation/continuity error.
Gadjo
Doka
I assumed that it was a hairstyle that one could legitimately have in that universe (I mean, we never see Homu use magic on her hair but for some reason it splits down the middle) but that Mami used magic to do it faster.
ultima333
Lazy Snug Youkai
In Rebellion it is seen that she does it manually as well.
Right before the nightmare/holy quintet scene, Bebe alerts Mami of a Nightmare, she is doing her hair by hand, but she decides to just magic it up to be done so she can hurry up.
- Location
- Latvia
Not sure if others can physically affect Sabrina's grief. Never mind if they can...but if Sabrina brings that up, they can also test it.
And I'm disregarding options such as mind-control on Sabrina, as with such an option there wouldn't be a need to lie, in the first place.
Feathers threat being real doesn't resolve the whole 'extremist who killed my Madoka' thing, but it can be a step towards 'our extremist'.
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noahgab1133
Fluffy?
i kinda of like it but it doesn't have the feather and feels too much like the conversation we had with homura before how about this based on whiskers plan?
[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] You'd like to give her a second chance and We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much at least.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.
[X] ask homura to timestop and discuss the feather with mami and her.
I really really want to bring up the feather. Its too important to keep putting off, we also have to deal with ono but that is a slightly lesser concern
[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she was being sincere and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
-[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary.
-[X] You'd like to give her a second chance and We... quite thoroughly broke any notions she could fix things with her crazy plans. So we trust her that much at least.
-[X] There is a slight risk, but she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people dead right now if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying after after some of the thing she's told you about this. Either way, it'd be best to continue being careful with her. Especially after what happened today.
[X] ask homura to timestop and discuss the feather with mami and her.
I really really want to bring up the feather. Its too important to keep putting off, we also have to deal with ono but that is a slightly lesser concern
[x] noahgab1133
Although I would prefer to have the whole conversation in timestop rather than just the Feather part.
Although I would prefer to have the whole conversation in timestop rather than just the Feather part.
- Location
- South Africa
[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]If she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she is willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. Her warning was very helpful here, but we still checked Sayaka's home first.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x]Oriko is powerful and useful and I honestly believe that we're better off having her as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't do it for someone as dangerous as Oriko unless I believed that she was no longer going to use her powers against us.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
---[x] She's panicked because her attempts to save Sayaka have failed. She's going to be even less likely to do crazy plans now. I believe that she's more likely to accept that our ways are better now.
---[x] She's useful enough that we can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her.
-----[x] She may see yet more threats that we don't manage to predict. Though we need to get better at predicting those threats even without her help.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
-[x]If Homura refuses timestop, say that I have reasons for thinking that Oriko is telling the truth, but do not wish to discuss them where possible eavesdroppers may be lurking.
--[x] Suggest the grief interdiction field if she is still unwilling
Okay. Have I missed anything?
[x]If she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she is willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. Her warning was very helpful here, but we still checked Sayaka's home first.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x]Oriko is powerful and useful and I honestly believe that we're better off having her as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't do it for someone as dangerous as Oriko unless I believed that she was no longer going to use her powers against us.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
---[x] She's panicked because her attempts to save Sayaka have failed. She's going to be even less likely to do crazy plans now. I believe that she's more likely to accept that our ways are better now.
---[x] She's useful enough that we can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her.
-----[x] She may see yet more threats that we don't manage to predict. Though we need to get better at predicting those threats even without her help.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
-[x]If Homura refuses timestop, say that I have reasons for thinking that Oriko is telling the truth, but do not wish to discuss them where possible eavesdroppers may be lurking.
--[x] Suggest the grief interdiction field if she is still unwilling
Okay. Have I missed anything?
That's... a bit long. The contingencies for what to do if Homura doesn't want to enter timestop are probably unnecessary. She knows the value of keeping things from Kyuubey, and the cost isn't really an issue. Besides, timestop means that Homura doesn't have to worry about something happening to Madoka while she's not there to watch her.
The other points can also be condensed quite a bit. We want to tell Mami and Homura our reasons, but we don't want to lecture at them for fifteen minutes. One of the problems that we had yesterday during our conversation with Homura was that we tried to talk too much without listening to what Homura was saying. Mami directly asked us to explain our reasoning, so we do have an opportunity to talk, but (IMHO) we should try to keep it relatively brief.
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- Location
- South Africa
I just don't want to keep treating Homura's timestop as if it's actually our timestop. It's rude and has actually been causing problems. She doesn't like breaking it out all the time.
Unfortunately, as you may have noticed, summarising is not my strongest point. I keep feeling like I've left out something important. That said, you do have a point. I don't want to lecture at them. But I do want them to see how we feel and why so that they don't think we're trusting Oriko for stupid reasons or something. This is incredibly hard.
EDIT: There's also the fact that Homura has been less willing to reveal stuff to Mami than we've been hoping for.
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Mister Bad Guy
Mr Mercury to friends
- Location
- Bay Area
Homura in-series seemed to have no problem with breaking out timestop for something as simple as unnerving people during conversation.
- Location
- South Africa
Yeah, but that's by herself. We've seen that she gets jittery when allowing others into it.
- Location
- South Africa
[x] Ask Homura if the three of us could discuss this in private, where certain ears may not be listening.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
Okay. tried to trim it a but, do some reordering for logic and remove some repetition. I also went with the assumption that Homura won't refuse timestop. It's still long, but hopefully better.
[x]Once she timestops:
-[x]Yes, it shouldn't have happened. We're lucky that Oriko could warn us. She's a useful asset, isn't she?
--[x]That said, it's true we can't trust her completely. I would like to believe that she's on our side, but I admit that she has been willing to do things we wouldn't approve of.
---[x]That said, her warnings are too useful to throw away. We can do great things with her help. And if whatever this threat is is as bad as she seems to believe, we may need her.
----[x]I don't want to lose her only to realise later on that we've doomed ourselves by not having her or to miss out on her predicting future threats.
---[x]Also, we don't have to trust her completely to find her useful. We still checked Sayaka's home first this time.
--[x] The fact that Sayaka seems to have been targeted means that we have to put more effort into protecting our friends.
---[x] Either way, having ways of finding out about potential threats besides Oriko's precognition would be good. She's useful, but not reliable or foolproof enough.
--[x]If Mami is confused and Homura doesn't reveal more about herself to Mami, admit that one of the things that I've been wanting to tell her is that I have knowledge of some of the witches. I knew that one and it's behaviour doesn't match what I know.
--[x]Show them the feather and admit that I am wondering if it's related to the threat Oriko predicted.
---[x] Ask for their opinions.
--[x]Remind them that defeating Walpurgisnacht doesn't necessarily make us home safe.
--[x]Tell them that Oriko finds me particularly difficult to predict, making me a good defense against her should she pull something untoward.
--[x] I honestly believe that we're better off having Oriko as an asset.
---[x]While I would like to give people second chances in general, I wouldn't risk it for Oriko without reason.
----[x] I can obviously not be positive, but I don't think she's acting and the evidence, such as the feather, seems to be supporting her.
--[x] I may dislike the methods that she was using, but I believe that she has accepted them as wrong, especially since seeing that her plan to save Sayaka failed, and that she'd be delighted if we all got what we want.
---[x] Oriko wants to stop Walpurgisnacht and whatever it is that's worse than Walpurgisnacht. So do all of us. As long as we agree on that, we should be better off helping each other achieve those goals.
-[x]If Homura wants to speak away from Mami, tell her the same information, but express a desire to let Mami know as much as it is safe for her to know.
Okay. tried to trim it a but, do some reordering for logic and remove some repetition. I also went with the assumption that Homura won't refuse timestop. It's still long, but hopefully better.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
One of the differences is the basic approach: rather than saying there isn't anything to be worried about because we understand Oriko, it's saying that there is something to be very much worried about because we understand Oriko, but that we also understand the potential she has for turning out remarkably heroic--and since we can't determine where on that spectrum she'll end up in this timeline, we can't condemn her and Kirika before they've killed anyone (or even tried to), yet after they've surrendered and indicated that they may truly be on the path to reform.
Basically, instead of saying that there isn't any reason to be particularly worried (because of X, Y, or Z), it's saying that there very much IS something to be worried about, but eliminating or locking up a person solely because of the threat she could pose is wrong--something Homura, of all people, should understand.
We could also point out that, if Oriko actually is reforming and making an honest effort of it, treating her like something unlikable and inherently untrustworthy regardless of what she does is likely to make her give up on that effort and just become the very threat we were afraid of.