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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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"Trust, but verify"? Though I suppose 'trust' might be too strong a word in this case.

And I agree with Mami and Homura that it's hard to trust someone who set off an IED on you, and blew up your leg. After burning Sayaka's house down. And after subtly threatening Mami. And after sending Best buddy to break Hitomi's arm.

Though without Oriko, we would've been unaware of feathers for a very long time. I mean imagine how would the quest turned if we went ahead and offed them?
 
I think the points to cover are something like -
- No, it shouldn't have happened. Too many anomalies at once.
- We're confident they were outside Oriko's ability to orchestrate.
- We're pretty sure she was genuinely shaken up back there.
- The information was solid.
- Turned or not, she chose to come to us with it rather than doing something unilateral.
- Trust, but verify.
 
I dunno about you, but I actually don't trust Oriko at all. She's rather dangerously unstable. Kirika is a cutie, but will do whatever Oriko tells her.
 
I trust Oriko's motives, but I don't trust her methods. Her precognitive ability has too many flaws to rely on and she is horrible at making plans.

However, we can take advantage of Oriko's abilities to spot things we wouldn't have noticed otherwise. The attack on Sayaka is a good example. Oriko is a valuable resource, but we shouldn't rely on her.
 
[] I... I want to trust her. I want to believe anyone can be good, but...
[] I know I shouldn't trust her. Manipulation has always been her game, and she has lied to me before...
[] Even if we do have the same goal, she's always been willing to do... horrible things to get what she wants. Things she knows we'd never agree to.
[] Now? I'm caught in the uncomfortable position of wanting to be careful of her, but the information and advance warning she provides is just... too valuable.
[] Sometimes I forget just who I'm dealing with, but this... I'll have to be more careful. This is just too out of the ordinary to ignore.

This is how I feel about her, anyway.

Edit: Landmine line altered.
 
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Note that Firnagzen appears to be giving us a chance to do-over the conversation we had from yesterday. It is a little bit different because Mami is present and Homura might be a little more receptive (since Oriko just helped us out). But it would be a good idea to reread that conversation and make sure that we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Note: this isn't a response to Gadjo's vote.
 
We can't trust her since we hardly have any way to verify if she's playing us but we have no other choice since the whole point of sparing her was to have a Diviner at our beck and call and so far, she's proven to be a massive asset.

We could point out that without Oriko, we would not have found out about the Sendai Girls or Sayaka until it was too late. However, we should make it clear that we're gonna step up our game and start surveying the city more for situations like the above so that we aren't solely reliant on Oriko for intel. Our extensive list of grateful Magical Girls should come in handy for intel gathering.
 
I just read over the chapters and here are the mistakes that we made which we should not repeat:
1. We didn't respond to Homura's actual concerns and didn't answer her questions.
2. We talked too much about things that Homura considered irrelevant (e.g. the clear seed research) and didn't do enough listening.
3. We treated Homura's fears as irrational.
4. We gave reassurances that we don't have the power to enforce (i.e. that Oriko won't hurt Madoka).
 
Here's my question about Oriko, and what I feel was a large mistake in yesterday's conversation:

Do we have to take a position on her? Here and now? Even one like @Gadjo , where we mitigate our strong position with qualifiers... why is it necessary?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Here's my question about Oriko, and what I feel was a large mistake in yesterday's conversation:

Do we have to take a position on her? Here and now? Even one like @Gadjo , where we mitigate our strong position with qualifiers... why is it necessary?
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It... I feel like it would make Homura feel better, to show some of our doubt in Oriko. That we know it would be foolish to trust her would be what she wants to hear, I think.

Besides, dodging the question will only annoy her more.
 
boonerunner said:
1. We didn't respond to Homura's actual concerns and didn't answer her questions.
2. We talked too much about things that Homura considered irrelevant (e.g. the clear seed research) and didn't do enough listening.
3. We treated Homura's fears as irrational.
4. We gave reassurances that we don't have the power to enforce (i.e. that Oriko won't hurt Madoka).
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Hm. That works out then. Mine honestly states our feelings on her, makes no promises, shares a certain amount of the same fear Homura has for her, and we directly address what Homura would consider important. (ie that Oriko could and would stab us in the back)
 
My take is that unqualified trust is, and should be, rare. There are always circumstances under which trust can break down. Don't trust people unreservedly; trust interests and motivations, strong bonds and values.
However, faced with evidence of trust and trustworthiness, common ground to work on, remember it and reciprocate it. Base decisions on the best information available. Incentivise cooperation hard and fast.
Or, to put it another way, for the love of god don't turn into Homura.
Gadjo said:
Hm. That works out then. Mine honestly states our feelings on her, makes no promises, shares a certain amount of the same fear Homura has for her, and we directly address what Homura would consider important. (ie that Oriko could and would stab us in the back)
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Yeah, but it's talking generalities, not specifics. Nothing at all on why we believe what we believe, so it can't really address the shadowruns.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Here's my question about Oriko, and what I feel was a large mistake in yesterday's conversation:

Do we have to take a position on her? Here and now? Even one like @Gadjo , where we mitigate our strong position with qualifiers... why is it necessary?
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Click to shrink...
I think that we do have to take a position. It doesn't have to be a particularly strong position, but we cannot afford to be ambivalent. Oriko has the kind of power that is always potentially dangerous. Either we trust her to not screw us over, or else we need to take action to prevent the possibility of her acting against us (by killing/rocking her).

We don't have to trust Oriko without reservation, but we do have to trust her enough to be confident that she isn't going to allow unnecessary harm to come to us or our friends.
 
Keep this in mind:
1. We tried to convince Homura that Oriko is on our side
2. Oriko helped us save Sayaka
3. We admit to Homura that Oriko might be dangerous (?)

We can't do a 180 on our stance about Oriko just because Homura doesn't agree, especially *right* after she saved our friend.

Instead, we should generally keep our stance about Oriko being helpful, but acknowledge Homura's doubts about her affiliation and assure her we'll be careful around her and not let her out of house arrest. For all we know she's just playing us until her arm is healed. However we can't miss out on the benefits of a personal seer.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
My take is that unqualified trust is, and should be, rare. There are always circumstances under which trust can break down. Don't trust people unreservedly; trust interests and motivations, strong bonds and values.
However, faced with evidence of trust and trustworthiness, common ground to work on, remember it and reciprocate it. Base decisions on the best information available. Incentivise cooperation hard and fast.
Or, to put it another way, for the love of god don't turn into Homura.
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Ehhhh being wary of Oriko isn't too crazy or anything. She is ruthless, and if she were manipulating us, we probably wouldn't notice.

That said, going the complete opposite direction might be a bit much. But mine doesn't truly make a 180. It just says that we do really want to trust her but that we know it's foolish (which to be fair it is).
 
Homura will probably never trust Oriko, or us if we insist that Oriko isn't all bad. After all, there is a reason Homura hates her.

This isn't an irrational fear. This is one that has been absolutely proven to be justified. There's very little that we can do to put Homura at ease here. Have we shared that we are 'immune' to Oriko's future sight? If not, we should. That, and the fact that as long as we're teamed up with Homura she can abuse Time Stop any time Madoka is in danger, should help her accept that we're not stupid at the very least.

Have a plan to kill everyone you meet. :p
 
[] You do believe that she was being sincere, and that she was telling truth about what she saw. But you can't be 100% certain and there are no guarantees, especially with someone like Oriko.
-[] If what she says is true, that doesn't make her completely trustworthy. She isn't above lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's necessary. Whether she's truly on our side or not, she's dangerous.
-[] Despite the risks, she and her visions are too valuable. There would probably be a lot of people if not for her visions. And you aren't willing to take the chance that she's lying. Especially after some of the thing she's told you. Either way, it'd be best to continue being wary and careful of her.

Meh, this is what I believe anyway. Also, there's something about Gadjo's vote that I don't quite like. Maybe it's the tone?
 
GiftOfLove said:
Have we shared that we are 'immune' to Oriko's future sight?
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Homura was there when Oriko told us. But we haven't yet got around to telling Mami.

-----

My take on the situation is that we should discuss motivation. Oriko's motivation is to protect people by arranging the defeat of the threat that is worse than Walpurgisnacht. Sabrina's motivation is to protect people by reclaiming grief from witches and soul gems and turning it to good. Mami's motivation is to live a happy life with an occasional witch fight for justice. Homura's motivation is to protect Madoka. There are some similarities, but all of our motivations are different (and could possibly cause conflict under certain conditions). But we can still work together for the most part.

Obviously, this is over-simplified, but the point is that Oriko's motivation ties directly to the threat which is blocked by "Feathers". Homura and Mami need to acknowledge the threat that Oriko is fighting if they want to be able to understand her. Otherwise they will constantly worry that she might hurt them or someone they care about for no good reason.
 
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