Oh, that reminds me. Ideally we study health at the same time as study metal.




Alright, while I understand the desire to discuss the pros and cons of political ideologies, and that this thread even has a very vested interest in it for the purposes of the game, both of you are shifting really heavily into real world politics over the concerns of politics and ideologies in the game. Please keep it focused on the game and how it would shape and evolve in our current environment so we don't get way off topic please.


You are quite right we have gone far beyond pre classical political theory/philosophy.


How bout we start a discussion about the spiritual implications of white glazed pottery vs green glazed pottery? (That smiley face emoji thing)
 
@maximillian aka X is simply X. Applies to anything.

@bluefur87 Last response.

Edit: White indicates purity, hygiene, benevolence, and order whereas green emphasizes the values of nature, being your wild self, and harmony. And probably recycling considering that we're getting a green glaze by reusing ash from the fires that heat the kiln. White could be gotten from a salt glaze or lime, I think?

Edit 2: Not salt glaze, which results in clear, brown, blue, or purple. Tin glaze, acc. to wikipedia, is white.
 
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Or perhaps white would a symbol of extravagance or spiritual significance duo to it being the colour of bone and requiring great expense to make.
Green could also be seen as symbolic of war, since war refugees brought its technique. And it's made from ash which is dead treee and symbolic of destruction.
 
Oh, that reminds me. Ideally we study health at the same time as study metal.




Alright, while I understand the desire to discuss the pros and cons of political ideologies, and that this thread even has a very vested interest in it for the purposes of the game, both of you are shifting really heavily into real world politics over the concerns of politics and ideologies in the game. Please keep it focused on the game and how it would shape and evolve in our current environment so we don't get way off topic please.
Not quite.
Certain actions are location based. These will not double up when taken twice as secondary.
New Trails is not location based, so it will always double up.

Location based actions(can split up when taken for different locations, will be assigned to most appropriate site if unspecified):
-Build Wall
-Build Watchtowers
-Expand Forests
-Expand Holy Sites
-New Settlement
-Trade Mission
-War Mission

So for instance
[][Secondary] Build Wall - Stonepen
[][Secondary] Build Wall - Stonepen x2

Builds a Main wall in Stonepen

[][Secondary] Build Wall - Stonepen
[][Secondary] Build Wall - Northshore

Builds a Secondary wall in Stonepen and Northshore.

There's no confusion involved here.
If it's not a project for a site, double secondary action only gives you the Main result. You can't get extra Stability from a festival by making it bigger.
Hmmmm...

I wonder what would happen if we spawned another Diplo/Admin Hero after this crisis. Ridiculously unlikely but interesting thought.
 
Or perhaps white would a symbol of extravagance or spiritual significance duo to it being the colour of bone and requiring great expense to make.
Green could also be seen as symbolic of war, since war refugees brought its technique. And it's made from ash which is dead treee and symbolic of destruction.
I could see white being those things. Extravagance is rather likely due to tin not yet being known, and tin-glazed ware being about as expensive as copper. So it will end up like how dye is now.

Green might be but it could also be seen as symbolic of life. War refugees immigrated and set up new lives, and are using it as a tie to their family. It's made from ash, turning a dead thing into a new one, turning black into green.
 
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Keep trading with both (Large chance of one of the two declaring war, tiny chance of both declaring war)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
I just thought of a brilliant idea.
We don't to ever make watchtowers.
What if we, get this, expand our forests!
Treehouses for everyone! No need for expensive towers.

I know, I know, it's brilliant.
 
I could see white being those things. Extravagance is rather likely due to tin not yet being known, and tin-glazed ware being about as expensive as copper. So it will end up like how dye is now.

Green might be but it could also be seen as symbolic of life. War refugees immigrated and set up new lives, and are using it as a tie to their family. It's made from ash, turning a dead thing into a new one, turning black into green.
If I may step in?

Green seems to be a cyclical thing. Sort of a phoenix like cycle. They had their lives destroyed by war, they brought this to us as remnants, and then made a new life with us. The tree grows up, dies, is made ash and then new ones are born. Very People.

White? Sounds like a final ending. With it's association with bone I could see it being used as funerary urns. Hmmm...
 
I just thought of a brilliant idea.
We don't to ever make watchtowers.
What if we, get this, expand our forests!
Treehouses for everyone! No need for expensive towers.

I know, I know, it's brilliant.
?

Like, watchtowers provide a completely different benefit than expand forest. Expand forest provides an environmental obstacle, watchtowers provide a hardpoint and observation independent of the environmental conditions they're built in.

Both are good.

If I may step in?

Green seems to be a cyclical thing. Sort of a phoenix like cycle. They had their lives destroyed by war, they brought this to us as remnants, and then made a new life with us. The tree grows up, dies, is made ash and then new ones are born. Very People.

White? Sounds like a final ending. With it's association with bone I could see it being used as funerary urns. Hmmm...
I agree that green is very people, so it's nice that we have it.

White sounds like a final ending if one associates it with bone, but it also sounds like internal stability and order. It would make an excellent export, because it's widely appealing and people who aim for higher sensibilities - i.e. the people who are likely to afford luxury exports - would like the effort it takes to keep it clean and the fact that it's white and orderly.

I want us to get hellenic-y red-ish glaze, too.
 
?

Like, watchtowers provide a completely different benefit than expand forest. Expand forest provides an environmental obstacle, watchtowers provide a hardpoint and observation independent of the environmental conditions they're built in.

Both are good.


I agree that green is very people, so it's nice that we have it.

White sounds like a final ending if one associates it with bone, but it also sounds like internal stability and order. It would make an excellent export, because it's widely appealing and people who aim for higher sensibilities - i.e. the people who are likely to afford luxury exports - would like the effort it takes to keep it clean and the fact that it's white and orderly.

I want us to get hellenic-y red-ish glaze, too.
Well what would the red be associated with spiritually. Blood? Birth? War?

Strife? Fire?
 
Well what would the red be associated with spiritually. Blood? Birth? War?

Strife? Fire?


Blood is tricky Could be vigor, could be vitality, could be honor or even martial prowess. Ofcourse it could also be war or violence.


It's also associated with fire so might be warmth, industry, the great celestial spirit that brings light(sun) .

And ofcourse there's the rich reddish soil associated, so it could be symbolic of plenty and agriculture.
 
Well what would the red be associated with spiritually. Blood? Birth? War?

Strife? Fire?
The red in the greek three-phase firing approach is due to oxidizing the natural iron in the clay, and allows for achieving black in the same system by first firing to make red, and then firing in a vitreous (i.e. deoxidized) atmosphere.

Because rather delicate figures can be achieved somewhat reliably with good control, it would likely be associated culturally with blood, war, and heroism due to increased ease in achieving portrayals in addition to the red coloring.

Due to the extreme control required, it is unlikely to spiritually symbolize strife inherently, though the chaos surrounding birth, war, heroism, and blood in general is likely to edge in the direction of chaos.

Edit: tldr it's going to symbolize something more active and bloody than white and green.

Edit 2: @BungieONI Our people's personal preference for spirits is of the terrestrial kind, but since the fall of the ST and arrival of the comet we have started drifting as much toward celestial spirits.

I think that they probably do associate the sun w/ a giant fire in the sky, yeah. It's either that or one of Crow's two eyes, the other one being the moon.
 
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Blood is tricky Could be vigor, could be vitality, could be honor or even martial prowess. Ofcourse it could also be war or violence.


It's also associated with fire so might be warmth, industry, the great celestial spirit that brings light(sun) .

And ofcourse there's the rich reddish soil associated, so it could be symbolic of plenty and agriculture.
Well the sun is yellow. Do the People associate it with fire?

I dig the soil connection. That one makes sense.

A thing of note is that our People are very hmmm... physical... in their spirits. Spirits of Earth and Tree and The Land especially. These are all things they can touch and feel and reach down and grab when talking about metaphysics. Very physicalist in their spirituality. This is helped through our focus on hard work too.

So any such discussion like this would have to keep those in mind. Hmmm...

Perhaps we can put this fascinating discussion of pots(being full serious here. This kinda thing is why I visit the thread) and try to codify our Ymrri Spirituality a little bit?

Make a kinda collective lore post?
 
The red in the greek three-phase firing approach is due to oxidizing the natural iron in the clay, and allows for achieving black in the same system by first firing to make red, and then firing in a vitreous (i.e. deoxidized) atmosphere.

Because rather delicate figures can be achieved somewhat reliably with good control, it would likely be associated culturally with blood, war, and heroism due to increased ease in achieving portrayals in addition to the red coloring.

Due to the extreme control required, it is unlikely to spiritually symbolize strife inherently, though the chaos surrounding birth, war, heroism, and blood in general is likely to edge in the direction of chaos.

Edit: tldr it's going to symbolize something more active and bloody than white and green.

Edit 2: @BungieONI Our people's personal preference for spirits is of the terrestrial kind, but since the fall of the ST and arrival of the comet we have started drifting as much toward celestial spirits.

I think that they probably do associate the sun w/ a giant fire in the sky, yeah. It's either that or one of Crow's two eyes, the other one being the moon.
Huh cool.

I like that image of one of Crow's two eyes. Very Protective Justice and it fits with that bit you describe as us starting to look toward the stars.
(clerical note tagging someone in an edit doesn't actually alert them. One of SV's quirks.)

Personally I see looking to the Terrestrial spirits promotes thinking of the practical and concrete. I look at our amazing progress in the Ecological and Farming fields as an example of this.
While Celestial looks towards the more abstract thoughts. It spawned a writing advance because of the complexity of the unfamiliar kinds of thought involved. It requires a different kind of thinking than the Terrestrial, which can be equally complex. I mean the ties of water and earth and tree are tough to all tie together and we've started to figure it out.
 
Well the sun is yellow. Do the People associate it with fire?

I dig the soil connection. That one makes sense.

A thing of note is that our People are very hmmm... physical... in their spirits. Spirits of Earth and Tree and The Land especially. These are all things they can touch and feel and reach down and grab when talking about metaphysics. Very physicalist in their spirituality. This is helped through our focus on hard work too.

So any such discussion like this would have to keep those in mind. Hmmm...

Perhaps we can put this fascinating discussion of pots(being full serious here. This kinda thing is why I visit the thread) and try to codify our Ymrri Spirituality a little bit?

Make a kinda collective lore post?


That would be very interesting indeed.
 
Make a kinda collective lore post?
K so like low-effort starter summary:
Types of Spirits​
Terrestrial:
Terrestrial spirits are spirits of the land and world. They are characterized by complex internal and shifting ties, a closer relationship with humanity, and effects that are largely at an individual or small scale level. They can be appeased through labor that pursues the general health and harmony of the land. They are believed to be mortal, but arise from and multiply within themselves.
Example groupings: Forest spirits; Plains spirits; River spirits; Ocean spirits; Animal spirits; Material spirits; Elemental spirits.
Example specifics: The spirit of wheat, which dies to feed people and in turn gains protection for the next generation. The spirits of poisonous herbs which, if their ways are known and relationships to the spirits of rock and fire properly utilized, can have their negative aspects heightened against a target and averted from the wielder, or even turned into a positive.

Celestial:
Celestial spirits are spirits of the heavens, both stars and storms. They are characterized by a mix of complex internal order (stars) and occasional unpredictability (storms, drought, comet). Their effects are always on a wide scale and often severe in nature. It is unknown what can appease them, though some speculate that a human sacrifice might be one worthy of their attention. They are believed to be immortal.
Example groupings: Star spirits; Storm spirits; Comet spirits?; ???; see Chthonic heresy, ST internal schism.
Example specifics: The comet was either a star spirit or an emissary of a previously unknown classification of comet spirits. It's relatively significant malignity can mean either that it was corrupted by the demonic spirits, is part of a natural malice in this kind of spirit, or was part of an unpredictable nature.

Demonic:
Demonic spirits are the enemy of humanity and likely of spirits. More specifically, they are spirits of disorder, disease, illness, accident, and untimely death. They possess no internal order and rarely act in a concerted fashion, for all that the spells they cast upon humanity can be understood and managed. Their spells can be targeted at individuals, or made to affect populations. Because their effects are often severe, the scope of their spells is the main factor in determining how dangerous a particular spell is. It is unknown how many demons exist, where they come from, and the status of their mortality and immortality. The last is of particular note: even if new demons cannot arise, the continued opportunity to develop and refine their spells is a significant threat against the People. If they are immortal and new demons CAN arise, demons will likely eventually outnumber the terrestrial and celestial spirits.
Example Specifics: The demon of disease. The demon of accident.
Example Spells: Spell of Starpox - currently combated by a ritual invented by the Wisdom Bynwyn; possible future developments unknown. Spell of Mischance: possible cause of misread messages, broken legs, and from these, of war.

Other:
These spirits are a miscellaneous grouping of spirits unusual in power and characteristics.
Example groupings: Ascended humans; Humanized terrestrial spirits; Gods; Virtues.
Example specifics:

Crow: The Trickster, Devourer, Sage.
From a notable source on this entity:
Crow the Teacher - the outwardly friendliest of the aspects, this is Crow as the teacher of knowledge, which is related to the ideas of teaching Gwygoytha back in the day and how that story got passed on and morphed. The thing with Crow the Teacher is that this version is by far the hardest to understand, so can in fact be the least helpful
Crow the Trickster - fairly standard trickster archetype, this aspect is considered the best for humanity if not for humans. He's the guy who will wreck a rival, elevate a poor man to power, and then let his hubris have it all come crashing down on his head so that the community learns an important lesson. Dangerous but curiously benevolent, the stories about Crow the Trickster emphasise that while you simultaneously need to be cautious around him and assume he's made you a part of a trick he's playing and thus you shouldn't take things at face value, you also shouldn't actively defy him lest he play a worse prank on you.
Crow the Devourer - this is perhaps the most sophisticated piece of theology among the People, in that the use of Crow as a culture hero ran into problems with the introduction of strong taboos against the handling of corpses. Not just the fact that the actual birds are carrion eaters, but Gwygoytha also introduced the idea that the crows eating the dead could learn their secrets and tell them to those who could listen. Crow the Devourer is Crow at his most transgressive and yet is also strangely benevolent, a sort of psychopomp character that takes the souls of the dead away from the living. Crow the Devourer knows great and terrible secrets.

Gwygo: The spirit of joyful chaos; mischance; possible progenitor both of Demons and of Man.

Heroes of Ages: Potential ascended humans. Refer to other texts.
 
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I 100% know this and have been told it repeatedly. I continue doing it because I'm trying to cut down the number of posts I make. I'm already like 300 ahead of the next person.
Ahh okay. Have a hug.

K so like low-effort starter summary:
Types of Spirits​
Terrestrial:
Terrestrial spirits are spirits of the land and world. They are characterized by complex internal and shifting ties, a closer relationship with humanity, and effects that are largely at an individual or small scale level. They can be appeased through labor that pursues the general health and harmony of the land. They are believed to be mortal, but arise from and multiply within themselves.
Example groupings: Forest spirits; Plains spirits; River spirits; Ocean spirits; Animal spirits; Material spirits; Elemental spirits.
Example specifics: The spirit of wheat, which dies to feed people and in turn gains protection for the next generation. The spirits of poisonous herbs which, if their ways are known and relationships to the spirits of rock and fire properly utilized, can have their negative aspects heightened against a target and averted from the wielder, or even turned into a positive.
Celestial:
Celestial spirits are spirits of the heavens, both stars and storms. They are characterized by a mix of complex internal order (stars) and occasional unpredictability (storms, drought, comet). Their effects are always on a wide scale and often severe in nature. It is unknown what can appease them, though some speculate that a human sacrifice might be one worthy of their attention. They are believed to be immortal.
Example groupings: Star spirits; Storm spirits.
Example specifics: The comet was either a star spirit or an emissary of a previously unknown classification of comet spirits. It's relatively significant malignity can mean either that it was corrupted by the demonic spirits, is part of a natural malice in this kind of spirit, or was part of an unpredictable nature.
Demonic:
Demonic spirits are the enemy of humanity and likely of spirits. More specifically, they are spirits of disorder, disease, illness, accident, and untimely death. They possess no internal order and rarely act in a concerted fashion, for all that the spells they cast upon humanity can be understood and managed. Their spells can be targeted at individuals, or made to affect populations. Because their effects are often severe, the scope of their spells is the main factor in determining how dangerous a particular spell is. It is unknown how many demons exist, where they come from, and the status of their mortality and immortality. The last is of particular note: even if new demons cannot arise, the continued opportunity to develop and refine their spells is a significant threat against the People. If they are immortal and new demons CAN arise, demons will likely eventually outnumber the terrestrial and celestial spirits.
Example Specifics: The demon of disease. The spell of starpox - currently combated by a ritual invented by the Wisdom Bynwyn; possible future developments unknown. The demon of accident. Spells unknown; possible cause of misread messages, broken legs, or, indeed, of war.
Other:
These spirits are a miscellaneous grouping of spirits unusual in power and characteristics.
Example groupings: Ascended humans; Humanized terrestrial spirits; Gods; Virtues.
Example specifics:
Crow: The Trickster, Devourer, Sage.
From a notable source on this entity:
Crow the Teacher - the outwardly friendliest of the aspects, this is Crow as the teacher of knowledge, which is related to the ideas of teaching Gwygoytha back in the day and how that story got passed on and morphed. The thing with Crow the Teacher is that this version is by far the hardest to understand, so can in fact be the least helpful
Crow the Trickster - fairly standard trickster archetype, this aspect is considered the best for humanity if not for humans. He's the guy who will wreck a rival, elevate a poor man to power, and then let his hubris have it all come crashing down on his head so that the community learns an important lesson. Dangerous but curiously benevolent, the stories about Crow the Trickster emphasise that while you simultaneously need to be cautious around him and assume he's made you a part of a trick he's playing and thus you shouldn't take things at face value, you also shouldn't actively defy him lest he play a worse prank on you.
Crow the Devourer - this is perhaps the most sophisticated piece of theology among the People, in that the use of Crow as a culture hero ran into problems with the introduction of strong taboos against the handling of corpses. Not just the fact that the actual birds are carrion eaters, but Gwygoytha also introduced the idea that the crows eating the dead could learn their secrets and tell them to those who could listen. Crow the Devourer is Crow at his most transgressive and yet is also strangely benevolent, a sort of psychopomp character that takes the souls of the dead away from the living. Crow the Devourer knows great and terrible secrets.

Gwygo: The spirit of joyful chaos; mischance; possible progenitor both of Demons and of Man.

Heroes of Ages: Potential ascended humans. Refer to other texts.
Gah. MAH EYES!

Noice summary. I'll poke at it some.
 
Stop: Fiat Iustitia Ruat Caelum
fiat iustitia ruat caelum First of all, I shall be awarding a one-day threadban to all of you; I hope you will not be repeating this behaviour in the future, and I am warning you that repeated instances of such behaviour will not be looked kindly on.

Then unto the huddled masses:

@Chrestomanci, for your multiple breaches of Rule 3 and incredibly hostile tone, I have seen fit to award you with 25 points and a severe warning to not indulge in such behaviour again.

@DkArthas, to you I shall award 25 points for a violation of Rule 4 as well as a minor violation of Rule 3. Please refrain from such behaviour in the future.

@Powerofmind, for ignoring a moderator warning, several breaches of Rule 3 and disruptive behaviour, I have decided to infract you for 50 points and a threadban of three days rather than the previously stated threadban of a single day.

I invite you all to have a good day and keep your tone constructive and civil.
 
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