I don't know what different sources cite different speed. This one said 320 kilometers, or nearly 200 miles a day, which is a bit insane.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Low balling it is probably a good bet. Humans may be endurance runners but somethings are just "Wha?
" inducing.
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- Germany
Which would give an action silly buns.
Which is stupid/being greedy, people who suggest this are just asking for a three front war
We have already opened our defenses to the HK with the new Southshore village that is currently being build, so if we were then to settle in the eastern hill and integrate the march we would open ourselves up to the TH and the nomads, which means there would be three possible targets we would have to reinforce/protect, which is an huge action & economy dump and does not equal the gain we would have from this
Quite honestly, for the time being I'm fine with just holding influence over them and get some the internal stuff done
I mean as long as they are there we won't be invaded by the nomads and given the the shit that is currently happening in the lowlands I think that is much more worth then the potential of another action slot, especially if it means we have to open up ourself to our potential enemies even more
Therefore I suggest that after the crisis is resolved we
1. build up some Stability
then depending on how quick the war escalates either build up some defenses
2.1. which would translate to a walled settlement in the badlands with towers
or do some domestic stuff until the kilns-tech-upgrade is finished
2.2 which could either be Built more Boats, Art Patronage or the expansion of either Black soil or snail farming
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Low balling it is probably a good bet. Humans may be endurance runners but somethings are just "Wha?
Another side effect is runner speed is necessarily communicable disease speed. So we'll also need to build quarantine sites as well.....
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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You know what that is completely valid reasoning which I agree with.
I see these other two provinces as a source we can take because the HK and TH don't really care about us now. And will less when we stop trading, maybe.
They seem pretty set on each other.
It'd be good to grab them but I'm okay with not. As to the March, I'm okay with leaving it as is, though a PSA is that we might be requested to send army to them occasionally. Mostly speculation but I think it could happen.
Why would the HK attack us? They've never started a war, they're busy claiming the lowlands instead of the shores.
The TH might do some raids on Eastern Hills, but that's unlikely since they've undoubtedly heard what happened to the other nomads and they're busy with the HK.
There are the pirates sailing around the Southern Shores, but we're gonna have to deal with those guys anyway pretty soon considering how frequently it's being mentioned and they don't sound like they're organized in the slightest.
I'm not planning on integrating the March too soon. They're even more valuable as a side group since they get 4 actions/turn instead of 0.5. I'd actually prefer to keep them separate as long as possible because of that, so long as we ensure they remain highly favorable to us and keep enough of our traits that it's likely to stay that way.
BungieONI
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To you both I'd let it go if I were you *looks at Hammer of God that got dropped recently*
Both sides seem valid to me.
It seems healthy and sane to expect the HK to poke us eventually. Seems unlikely to me but this world is full of militants while we just wanna farm in peace.
Eh, we're arguing mechanics much more than we're claiming the other people are poopyheads who don't read and urgently need brain surgery. As long as we don't move into claiming that the other people are acting in bad faith and stay on topic we should be fine.
Sure, eventually. While they're busy trying to claim the lowlands and fight of the TH, possibly dealing with a few remnants of the DP, and still trying to advance their own civilization? That doesn't seem likely to me.
edit: just looked back at the argument... Everyone realizes the 2nd province site is Southern Shores, yes? It seems like a lot of people have missed that, so I just wanted to repeat it again.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Which is why I said it seemed unlikely to me.
I'd advise caution about expanding south. Badlands makes an eminent amount of sense to me. That's basically forting up our most hot border besides the north, which just got neatly handled by the North March(God whenever I hear that I think of Shadowmarch. Damn good book that.)
So to folks who wanna be safe from the lowlands I suggest throwing a Main at the Badlands(Only way we can actually get it, and sadly it only returns as a secondary.). I also know this hurts your action costing but it is a useful action no?
Even if they aren't fighting us it pays to make sure we don't get caught in the blowback of the children fighting.
On that note, query: How old are the HK and TH?
I figured them at about 200 for the HK and 100 for the TH. Is that about right?
I really don't see the point of the Badlands site. We're not planning on fighting in the Lowlands, and the DP aren't a think anymore. Why bother? We can wait until one side is closer to winning at the very least. Throwing away an action (2 actions in, 1 econ out) for marginal benefits?
Unless we're planning on launching attacks at the lowlands in the near term it's wasteful, and it opens up that settlement to those same attacks anyway. It was useful back when the DPs were a threat, but now? They'd have to go out of their way to fight us, which they won't unless they see some advantage (or are insulted by us helping their enemies)
BungieONI
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That is a point but do you acknowledge that those human cockroaches the DP will come surging back soonish? Edit: Or if not soonish then eventually?
The war has to be enticing to them, "strike your enemy in their moment of weakness" amirite?
If they do come back it makes sense to have that fort there as a first line of defense already prepared. The Badlands in my view already provide a good defense in depth as nasty geography but a fort settlement would be helpful. I also like the slight WTF? that can be induced in anyone that visits it as they think "How the heck did these elf buggers find a way to live here?" though that is not a big concern.
I'm going to have to disagree on this to an extent. While I don't feel it's critical, I do feel it is an increasing priority, because it is much better to have the site established beforehand than it is to just wait until it looks like trouble is actually brewing. We've seen just now that we can have a huge number of actions sucked up as a result of unexpected scenarios, and taking actions to secure an entire border is very important.
I'd like to wait until after metal working and the new provinces, mind, but I think it should be rather up there for things we need to consider doing sooner rather than latter.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
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Lets just focus on completing the crisis before we worry about expanding south
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- Germany
Simple, because of our drop in Diplomacy
Our Diplomacy stat is a measure how well everybody likes us and we are currently cutting it down by half
This creates a fallout, especially for the parties involved
The HK & the TH will both feel slighted by our trading stop and while they may not outright declare war on us it won't stop them from taking an oppurtunity
For the TH an oppurtunity would an less then well defended village (cough*eastern hills*cough), while for the HK an oppurtunity would be an weakened party that could be taken advantage of (which would we be if the HK notices us drawing manpower from the flank due us being locked in a defense war mission for another front)
Other facts to consider
The HK would be especially eager to raid us and gain our coastal villages if they find out that it is them that produces their highly desired dyes
While a war with the TH has a high chance of losing influence with the March leading to a loss of military support and might even trigger a civil war with the March
- Location
- Australia
I'm confused about this here. It's saying that expanding forests won't be good for defence because of all the pastures?
Forests, useful as they are, also competes with pasture grounds.
BungieONI
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There is no indication of that in the wording for the stop trading with both option but that logic does make sense.
Hrmmmmmm....
Well since I'm not voting I feel more free to just off the cuff this stuff so here is my wants list.
Bungie's list of things they'd like to see Ymrri develop soonish(not rated by any priority except when I thought of it and put it down):
1) Kilns. Getting this automatically in 1 or 2 turns.
2) Metal. Research needed.
3) Solve the crisis and have our civ be a severe anomaly in this era because a lot of our folks are literate and we have codified laws.
4) Build the Saltern and or the Place to the Stars.
5) Build the Garden. Hanging Gardens yo.
6) Get our Holy sites as libraries.
7) Find all the nice things we can do when you heat stuff in a kiln.
8) More boats. Get navy. Think of shipgirls.
etc
Also @Kiba I really like that Primitive Technology channel you sent. That is some cool shit. Think we use Termite clay?
Have a playlist of Ymrri-ish music. Also please let me know if the link doesn't work.
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- Location
- Germany
It's a strategic place that is highly defensable & that allows us to project better into the lowlands, which probably can be tranlated to faster action-reaction a.k.a. mid turn action instead of waiting for the next full turn
Dude, we don't get a choice in this matter, we will be involved in some form in the fallout that result from another war in the lowlands, either by being drwan into the war by one side or another, by being raided by them for econ once they run into a stalement and get desperate enough for an advantage in the war or by being bullied by the winner who takes all once everything is settled
The Badlands settlement at least will ensure that when we are drawn into this shit it won't spill over into our country,
It's not about action economy or stat gain/return actions, it's about establishing a proper border that we can easily defend
We'll be able to also get a lot more immigrants, and trade would be a lot easier as well.
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- Australia
Umm...fuck the pastures? The only good thing pastures give us is Econ, and forests do that too with the added bonus of increased defensibility.
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- Germany
It's simple past experience, back when we were at Diplo 3 everybody treated us like shit simple because we didn't want to play ball and considering that the drop of Diplo we suffer here comes specific from us refusing to play ball we can assume that it will end with similar results
I would place both the Garden & the Saltern as an high priority project, but not done during times of strife such as now
Preferable I would like to build both once the conflict in the lowlands is finshed and we have absorbed what refugees came from it, as it would not only mean a time of peace for us as the nomands wouldn't be a problem for us, but also mean we would have the econ and thus the stability to finish these via kicking
We need more art for that, you need to consider that as well
I dunno about that, but at least we would greatly reduce the death rate of those trying to flee to us
Only into the lowlands, both the HK & the TH have their own seperate trade routes
Pasture give us horses, which we need if we want to retaliate against the nomads.
That isn't a problem if you have bocages, though, which would make invading even our pasture a fricking nightmare.
BungieONI
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Query: What is your level of least involvement in the lowlands clusterfuck mk I-don't-even-remember?
What is your level of highest involvement without war?
That is a weirdly worded option I do agree. I'd let it flutter off until they(@Kiba @bluefur87) maybe fix it or clarify?
Edit: And this is a bocage.
Diplomacy 5 is not low.... we've been sitting at around that or lower for a long time (until we got our Diplo king). Just because we are less active with them doesn't mean they'll suddenly hate us. The HK have never attacked without good cause, same as us. They'll feel somewhat slighted, but we're not helping their enemy so why would they bother? The TH probably will since they've still got a raiding economic model, (once they have spare actions from ending the war with the HK) but the HK has given no indication of doing that in the medium term.
If we were dropping to 0-2 diplomacy I'd be much more worried, and negative diplomacy is obviously horrible, but we've still got plenty to spare. The HK won't declare war without any options unless they have a good reason.
Can you provide examples? We mostly just kept to ourselves those turns, so...
In that case we just want to stay as far away from them as possible (unless it looks like the TH/HK might start losing).
Not really? Look at the map, the badlands are right where the mountain is. The southern province would be an expansion along the shore. It doesn't protect from the HK much at all, and it obviously doesn't help against the pirates.
But we're planning on staying out of the lowlands as much as possible, no? We don't need them since our farming is amazing for getting resources out of low-quality land. Let everyone else fight for the high-quality farmland while we just turn the hills into our step farms.
What's the purpose of establishing a border? So that we don't waste actions/stats when they attack us. The ST died because their martial hit 0 and they were fighting us and the nomads. The DPs died because their economy went to shit trying to keep up the fighting, then causing the stability to drop. It all comes down to actions and stats in the end, though the raw numbers on the stats are separate from their actual importance due to the hidden scaling multiplier.
Now, you could certainly argue that getting into a war will eat more actions than not expanding. I'm seeking to convince you that that is very unlikely since they will be unlikely to start a war, at least within the next several turns. And if they do, it will still only cost us as much as it has gained (we gain a secondary from the provinces, lose a secondary in fighting)
That's a fair argument, but we're not trading with either of them until one is close enough to winning (and then we'll want to establish the settlement then, possibly, so that we can attack their undefended lowlands in retaliation)
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