- Location
- Austria
We live in the hills and have some mountains within our borders, so I feel pretty hopeful about the potential ores to be found - more optimistic than if we lived on the plains, certainly.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
We live in the hills and have some mountains within our borders, so I feel pretty hopeful about the potential ores to be found - more optimistic than if we lived on the plains, certainly.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
A friendship with the HK will, ideally, strengthen their political and thus actual position, allowing them to keep the DP from attacking us for a period of time. Assuming this succeeds, it is a wiser investment than a ~3 turn extension, especially if either Expand Warriors or Expand Forest succeeds in reducing the likelihood of an attack.
I concur that the HK are likely to be more urgent, but want to note that the trade imbalance will do our economic situation no favors.
It might send us negative, I do not know. It depends on our econ at the start of the turn. I would maybe support Expand Warriors because it's more reliable. On the other hand, we'd be able to expand the forest more easily if we were assured that we wouldn't be attacked.
I don't know why you assume pre-shaped and smelted copper will let us know what ore looks like.
- Location
- Hell
Don't downplay the price of medicine either. Having actual working cure for scouring demons is a godsend, not to mention knowledge of how germs work. We could potentially have what happened to the Spirit Talkers happen to us, namely that people would come to us for our Mysticism.
I'd rather affirm our partnership with the Metal Workers first since we have a Heroic Diplomat as High Chief right now. That sounds like all sorts of yum.
- Location
- Sweden
Gwygoytha bribed her way into the warrior training.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Those who destroy the lie promote Ma'at;
those who promote the good will erase the evil.
As fullness casts out appetite,
as clothes cover the nude and
as heaven clears up after a storm.
- Location
- United States
Our settlements aren't sticking out into the lowlands though..so there's no immediate threat of DP incursion. The deal we have with the nomads is ending after next turn, so I think that's a more pressing issue.
I'm just gonna assume that we won't get an econ boost from the govt change. If we do, then it'll be a pleasant surprise and i'll back expanding forests.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
- Location
- Australia
But aren't we already getting them? It's one of the things we're voting on this turn, whether to build boats to open up a permanent trade route with them so we get metal tools.
This plan is a bad one. It assumes that giving the HK dyed clothes will help the people listen to the new king. It assumes that the lowland polities would care about us giving the HK dyed clothes. It assumed that the DP will attack us within a turn or two, and that dyed clothes will enable the HK militarily and economically to put enough pressure on the DP to keep them off our backs.
Your plan assumes a lot of far-fetched and nonsensical things. The nomad plan, on the other hand, has far less points of failure (it only has one: a single diplomacy roll). We also KNOW the nomads are going to attack with enough intensity as to warrant a Secondary, whereas it is uncertain when it comes to the DP, who seem to care only about the Western Remnants and the HK, not us.
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- Location
- Hell
So?
The question you asked was whether we had full time warriors or not and I gave you an example of one. How she got it is irrelevant.
That's why he said "ideally"
Still, promoting better relations between us is hardly a bad thing.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
While *our* settlements are not sticking out into the lowlands, the HK's are. Assisting them now is assisting our future selves. It is also a wiser investment as the imperialistic DP are a more significant concern than nomad raids in pursuit of loot. This is especially when one notes that part of the hope behind Expand Warriors is that more warriors will lead to a decreased likelihood of nomad raids. As contrast, the hope behind Expand Warriors is that we will be less outmatched by the DP.
I agree that we are unlikely to get an econ boost from the govt change. I would note two factors, however. First, that we will be getting a free, AN-chosen secondary action to be done by individual leaders from now on. Second, we do not yet know what establishing the permanent trade route will cost, for all that we can assume it will be -2 Econ.
To repeat myself, diplomancy works as follows:
Luxury implies wealth, wealth implies security. People desire security, especially if they're a small polity considering whether or not to try to stay independent and risk war with the nation that the emissary sent to them represents. Furthermore, the knowledge that this particular color can only comes from us creates an awareness that we support these people. If they kneel, their people will be as wealthy as the people they see and exist in a society affirmed by a more powerful and notably well-fed nation. Therefore, it is likely that they either will kneel or grasp too tightly to power. If people kneel, the HK do not waste warriors on getting people to join them. If they grasp too tightly to power, an opening for sabotage is likely to open within their government, which can be exploited through bribes and support.
What in the above is far-fetched and nonsense?
Admittedly, this will require more rolls on the HK's behalf than a single roll to negotiate with the TH and expect that they will desire and be able to continue preventing raids will require - though imo not that many more.
Considering only the near future and not the sheer strength and expansionary vision of the DP is a short-sighted choice.
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- Location
- Australia
It is when we have to pay for it with nomad attacks.
Do you not see how complex your own idea is? How it requires a full paragraph to explain and thus how open to failure it is? There are many ways for things to go wrong there, ways I fully trust you can come up with yourself.
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- Location
- United States
We're setting up a permanent trade route, yeah, but everyone wants to dive straight in with our new diplo hero and try to get metal working now.
Ehh, dyed cloth is an important luxury in this time, so having all these luxuries will add a form of legitimacy to their rule. Remember when our diplo hit 2 and our own citizens were unhappy because we had too little luxuries? The HK citizens (and lowland minors...whatever remains of them) would look at the influx of luxuries and think "wow, those look really impressive" and will be more likely to back the HK rule.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Explain how the nomad negotiation works.
- Location
- United States
We won't be giving them any military assistance though, only trading luxuries.
Considering the DP aren't yet directly threatening us and the nomads are, I'm not really convinced by your arguments for HK first rather than extending the nomads peace agreement 2-3 turns. If we wait another turn, we lose the opportunity for negotiating longer peace...and the nomads would just attack any trade mission we send.
- Location
- Australia
Our hero will offer them trade and if they accept they must not raid us. That's it. They then either accept or decline, which is where the one point of failure is located.
- Location
- Hell
Correlation is not causation.
Being on better terms with the Highland Kingdom does not cause Nomad attacks.
I'd rather work with the group we can actually form long term relations with than the one that would require constant bandages.
- Location
- Australia
Getting on better terms with the Highland Kingdom means not working on getting better relations with the nomads, and without those better relations with the nomads we'll get raided by the nomads. It's not that complex.
EDIT: I'm saying this because we won't be sending two Trade Missions out this coming turn, which is the only way to get on better terms with the HK without suffering nomad attacks.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
The comparison was to note the disparity between the threat posed by eventual DP raids and the threat posed by presumably-near-future nomadic raids. As well as to note that, if we go through with Expand Warriors, we are already working to prevent the nomads from attacking us.
Again, the difference is between a significant long term threat and a modest short term one. Also, as previously noted, if Expand Forest and Expand Warriors work to reduce nomad raids and do so consistently over the course of their existence, a -2 combo pack of those actions is a sounder economic investment than a trade mission that might provide a protection which will last for 2-3 turns.
To bring up a new point, I would like to note that we received the previous 2-generation protection at the cost of many of our shamans, most of our blackbirds, and a number of our warriors.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Which nomad group are we sending the trade mission to, and where are they?
What prevents them from forcibly seizing the goods we offer?
Upon an agreement, why must they then proceed to keep their word?
How does this guarantee that other nomad groups will not attack us?
Do we get anything in return other than a cessation of raids?
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- Location
- United States
Yes, if we are able to expand warriors and plant forests in the north, the nomad raids will be much less difficult to deal with. However, if we can't do both then securing a 2-3 turn peace will give us plenty of time to build our military and econ, rather than be locked into a defensive war mission (assuming only 1 isn't enough to defend our settlement).
The DP won't be going away any time soon. Nor will the HK unless they get a cluster fuck of shitty rolls...but in order to adequately prepare for the DP, we'll need that peace in order to properly stomp them down.
I'm confused as to how that could be relevant...we got that 2 turn peace in spite of the many failed rolls we got. If we hadn't gotten shit on by the dice, we'd likely have gotten anywhere from 3-5 turns of peace from them.
- Location
- Australia
Thunder Horses, which is one of the listed possible Target Options for Trade Mission.
The peace agreement we have. It's why it's important to do it this coming turn and not the turn after, or else it's Patrikwos all over again.
Their honour. In all the generations we've known each other, while they have often raided us, they've never broken their word.
The Thunder Horses are dominant, to the point where Nomads isn't a possible Target Option in both Trade Mission and War Mission.
Of course. It's a trade mission, not a tribute mission.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I do not know why you assume we would have gotten 3-5 turns of peace from them, especially since, ultimately, it was our actions that let the Nomads break into the ST core. It's equally likely that we would have gotten a share of the spoils and a look inside the ST's sacred cave. My opinion is that we received a cessation of attacks out of pity from the nomads and necessity from AN.
If people end up being truly set on a diplomatic mission to go bribe the nomads to leave us alone, I would vote to instead spend not spend the econ on a trade mission and just do the forest and expand warriors. It's simply a better choice.
The DP won't be going away any time soon, yes. Especially since they're most likely mopping up WC remnants faster than the HK can, thus beating them in population as well as in military and economic prowess.
Actually, she was a Martial Genius, so she copied the training off the trainees who told her, and was STILL better than the boys, so she could pass initiation just fine
1) Thunder Horse, they are the nearest Nomad group to us with a long history of trade with our people, and two bonuses to Legitimacy(meaning they have a much higher chance of winning leadership than clans who lack legitimacy artifacts)
2 & 3) Cultural traits. Their Word of Honor trait means that if you get their agreement FIRST, then bring the goods, they will adhere to the deal. The mistake made the first time was bringing a show of wealth before getting their agreement, because they took a look at our Martial rating and gambled on just seizing it.
4) Nomad prestige is based on their leaders' personal possession of bling. As we have a sea route for metal trade now, and bright dyes, we will increase the prestige of the clans trading with us, which again, boosts their leadership qualities.
5) Technological transfers and opened long distance trade routes with Nomad guides/traders. Nomads are in contact with many communities, some by war and some by trade. They would possess more new ideas than the HK at present, as we've been in long time contact with the Kingdom's ancestors(and so we don't really have any ideas to transfer). This means that in turn, LoO would have better trait options than the present via trade connections to new factions:
--Nomad
---Honor traits
----Martial Glory
----Blood ties above all
----Protect your weak
----Our word is our bond
--Spirit Talker(Historical)
---Spiritual Traits
----Omen Reading - Study World trait allows for accelerated tech development, but causes superstition proliferation.
----
----
--Western Confederacy(Historical)/Kingdom
---Social Traits
----Pioneering Spirit - Burn Centralization for Economy on Stability drops.
----
----
While a lasting peace is unlikely(because even with their legitimacy boosts, the Thunder Horse probably won't be in power for more than 3 generations in a row), building ties with the Thunder Horse increases the probability of friendly or neutral nomad turns compared to hostile nomad turns.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Your assumptions are as follows:
We know or will find out where the Thunder Horse tribe is, despite the fact that to all appearances they rode off into the sunset.
They will still hold to their peace agreement and will be able to have other tribes on the way to them obey it.
They will maintain power/dominance in an area near us long enough for this treaty to be worthwhile.
They are inclined to continue expending influence in order to protect us.
They are inclined to do so while still giving us enough goods in exchange for the ones we're trading them that there is no loss on our end, i.e. in exchange for no return other than continued amity.
Their hidden rolls for influence are somehow different than the ones the HK would do.
Edit: @veekie, so pretty much the same arguments that apply to the HK. If you exchange "sense of honor" for "rational self-interest."
The nomad pool is likely to have interesting contacts, but whether or not the TH will - despite having been in contact with us for such a long time - is doubtful.
LoO trait options are a bad argument, considering that we've been in contact with the Nomads for long enough to pick their traits if we want them.
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