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Paths of Civilization

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A) Essentially the whole point people arguing against the lowland settlement was that "oh, it won't be a problem if we don't go down there lol. The DP won't attack us cus we're the villages hidden in the leaves haha" and now y'all are being "We NEED warriors in case we're attacked!!" Like??
B) Make Expand Forest to the north now, so we're not getting attacked when we do it later. This is the last turn of the protection from nomad raids, make it count.
C) Do a Trade Mission to HK to take advantage of our diplo and set up a long term ally. The Nomads are a dumb effort - they change too much. The Metal Miners are a dumb effort - the exact same Hero already did a Trade Mission to them. The HK are necessary to *prevent* attacks on us because having the HK strong means that the DP have an enemy about 1/2 the distance away from their city. It's basically the same idea as the Expand Forest, except that unlike Expand Forest it won't provide Econ a turn or two later.
D) Do Restore Harmony, idc. Do New Trails, idc. Do Expand Warriors, idc. Do a Blue Quarry Settlement so that New Trails will actually lay trails there too, idc. Whatever you do for this option, make sure that it doesn't bust our Econ score all to heck.
 
Eri said:
I'm curious. Why do you think we don't have writing? It's listed in the tech list and have been for ages. It's been referenced several times in the text. Just this turn people were going through old records. What did you think that was if not writing?

Is it just that you've mentally equated writing with an alphabetic system? I mean, logographic writing may demand a bit more of your memory, but it's still writing and it has its own advantages over alphabetic (or abjad or abugida) writing.
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I guess what I meant was that proper records of observations and studies by shamans and warriors would help in case we loose a majority of our intellectuals, like in the previous update. Our mysticism plummeted because we lost the knowledge of our dead shamans. Proper educational materials would have helped prevent or at least mitigate such losses.
 
Umi-san said:
A) Essentially the whole point people arguing against the lowland settlement was that "oh, it won't be a problem if we don't go down there lol. The DP won't attack us cus we're the villages hidden in the leaves haha" and now y'all are being "We NEED warriors in case we're attacked!!" Like??
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No we need warriors because our military is getting lopsided into a tiny elite only force, and we cannot absorb any kind of damage without defense bonuses.

Umi-san said:
B) Make Expand Forest to the north now, so we're not getting attacked when we do it later. This is the last turn of the protection from nomad raids, make it count.
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There's also using a Trade Mission to buy another couple turns of peace while they're still peaceable.

But personally dubious that Expand Forest will add significantly to defense in a short timespan. Not without finding some other place to put the pastures that are there(pastures specifically build to the limit of the open space available, which growing forests on would destroy)
Umi-san said:
C) Do a Trade Mission to HK to take advantage of our diplo and set up a long term ally. The Nomads are a dumb effort - they change too much. The Metal Miners are a dumb effort - the exact same Hero already did a Trade Mission to them. The HK are necessary to *prevent* attacks on us because having the HK strong means that the DP have an enemy about 1/2 the distance away from their city. It's basically the same idea as the Expand Forest, except that unlike Expand Forest it won't provide Econ a turn or two later.
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FYI, this is wrong. According to AN we only sent a Trade Mission to their neighbors. We've never actually sent a mission to THEM, we just know their location now so we have no chance of sending a mission in the wrong direction.
Umi-san said:
D) Do Restore Harmony, idc. Do New Trails, idc. Do Expand Warriors, idc. Do a Blue Quarry Settlement so that New Trails will actually lay trails there too, idc. Whatever you do for this option, make sure that it doesn't bust our Econ score all to heck.
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Hopefully people pay attention then. New Trails cost 1 Econ and so does Expand Warriors(potentially costs more). Restore Harmony is free though.
 
veekie said:
It has major drawbacks in language mastery time investment however.
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It has drawbacks in language mastery time investment due to having a larger amount of logographs, but provides faster reading and denser texts. Widespread public education starting young would solve the problems in language mastery time to a certain degree and once the basic kanji are learned it's less troublesome in regards to spelling than some alphabet-based languages.

ctulhuslp said:
As a person who tries to learn Japanese and is hurt by kanji: spirits please no. Rote learning of 5000 of those asshole pictures who change their reading and meaning depending on the phase of the moon* is a paaain. I have no idea how people can learn Chinese.
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The obvious answer is that the pronunciation differs almost entirely by whether a word is native or not. Chinese people don't have to deal with this issue because they're not adapting foreign logographs to their language *and* adding foreign words at the same time.
The root meaning doesn't change, really, it's just that the combined meaning of more than one kanji can vary to a certain extent, and modern words have to either a) string a bunch of basic kanji together to accurately portray a more scientific process or gist it with basic kanji that somewhat portray the truth and trust that people will figure it out, or b) just be made as a joke or based on a joke, but then become a real word. Which is more or less how english scientific and modern words work, too.
 
Umi-san said:
A) Essentially the whole point people arguing against the lowland settlement was that "oh, it won't be a problem if we don't go down there lol. The DP won't attack us cus we're the villages hidden in the leaves haha" and now y'all are being "We NEED warriors in case we're attacked!!" Like??
B) Make Expand Forest to the north now, so we're not getting attacked when we do it later. This is the last turn of the protection from nomad raids, make it count.
C) Do a Trade Mission to HK to take advantage of our diplo and set up a long term ally. The Nomads are a dumb effort - they change too much. The Metal Miners are a dumb effort - the exact same Hero already did a Trade Mission to them. The HK are necessary to *prevent* attacks on us because having the HK strong means that the DP have an enemy about 1/2 the distance away from their city. It's basically the same idea as the Expand Forest, except that unlike Expand Forest it won't provide Econ a turn or two later.
D) Do Restore Harmony, idc. Do New Trails, idc. Do Expand Warriors, idc. Do a Blue Quarry Settlement so that New Trails will actually lay trails there too, idc. Whatever you do for this option, make sure that it doesn't bust our Econ score all to heck.
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A. AN has finally assured people that they can totally lose if the DP decide to do a full invasion effort, which has made them so much more terrified now. In addition, AN has also clarified that we can't build in the lowlands without inviting the possible ire of "please waste one secondary action for all eternity because the DP are attacking it."
B. Just because we aren't guaranteed doesn't mean we're totally going to be attacked 1000%.
C. Trade mission eats 2 economy. We're just about to blow between 1-2 more of our 4 economy solidifying the metal trade route. Trade also doesn't give them useful things? Trade in this era is basically "I'll give you this pretty rock for this fancy wooden carving." At best, you could argue we'd trade them high-quality wood, but they live in the forested hills, too.
D. Considering your C both blows all of our remaining economy and does nothing... Maybe you should reconsider Trails/Restore and an expand warriors.
 
veekie said:
FYI, this is wrong. According to AN we only sent a Trade Mission to their neighbors. We've never actually sent a mission to THEM, we just know their location now so we have no chance of sending a mission in the wrong direction.
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Academia Nut said:
There has been a proposal to build more boats
[] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
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No... I'm pretty sure we've got a trade route with the metal workers.
 
veekie said:
No we need warriors because our military is getting lopsided into a tiny elite only force, and we cannot absorb any kind of damage without defense bonuses.
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Sauce on how our warriors is a "tiny elite only force"? Sure it's underexpanded, compared to the DP, but it's hardly at the level the ST's warriors are. The Blackbirds are this "tiny elite only force," so the warriors must perforce be larger and more generalized.

veekie said:
There's also using a Trade Mission to buy another couple turns of peace while they're still peaceable.

But personally dubious that Expand Forest will add significantly to defense in a short timespan. Not without finding some other place to put the pastures that are there(pastures specifically build to the limit of the open space available, which growing forests on would destroy)
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The entire point of "Expand Forest" is the word "Expand." Aka, pushing the forest *past* its current limits, not filling in holes. A forest that is thicker in the distance it covers provides more protection and doesn't limit pastures, at least in the short term.
We could send a Trade Mission to buy another couple turns of peace, but that depends on the TH still having enough strength to forbid attacks. It also doesn't help prop up the HK so that they can function as an even longer term ally who prevents attacks by the DP out of self-interest. That self-interest being motivated by a) the fact that these attacks would largely be passing by land that they will one day claim and b) regular trade with us propping up their status due to our supplies of dye, metal, and eventually lapis.
veekie said:
FYI, this is wrong. According to AN we only sent a Trade Mission to their neighbors. We've never actually sent a mission to THEM, we just know their location now so we have no chance of sending a mission in the wrong direction.
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Great. So if we send a Trade Mission it's likely that we might one day be able to achieve smelting. But if we send a Trade Mission to the HK we might be able to achieve not being attacked from the south. Sincerely, which is more urgent, in your opinion?
veekie said:
Hopefully people pay attention then. New Trails cost 1 Econ and so does Expand Warriors(potentially costs more). Restore Harmony is free though.
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I think people are just iffy about RH because if we do get a stability bonus (unlikely imo) we won't necessarily need it. I'd still support doing it, though, because stability is always nice.
 
Yosh, this thread MOVES when you leave it alone for a day! Bet that's news, eh? :p

Glad to see our government is finally upgrading though, this will help solve our action economy issues to some extent at least!

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My suggestion is to go for main Expand Warriors, secondary actions going to Build Wall and Trade Mission, but only if our econ allows it. Otherwise Main stays the same while we survey and do another econ as secondary actions.
Reasoning: We desperately need to improve our martial base and get some defenses going but it's also a good idea to get some use for our great diplomacy. But no need to rush it since he will probably have a 2 turn lifespan according to AN.
Academia Nut said:
[] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
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Due to this we can focus on upgrading our military and getting our defenses up this turn, while next time we can focus on diplomacy.
On the subject on trade mission costing two econ can you confirm @Academia Nut. It might have been confirmed earlier but i have not seen it.
 
Powerofmind said:
A. AN has finally assured people that they can totally lose if the DP decide to do a full invasion effort, which has made them so much more terrified now. In addition, AN has also clarified that we can't build in the lowlands without inviting the possible ire of "please waste one secondary action for all eternity because the DP are attacking it."
B. Just because we aren't guaranteed doesn't mean we're totally going to be attacked 1000%.
C. Trade mission eats 2 economy. We're just about to blow between 1-2 more of our 4 economy solidifying the metal trade route. Trade also doesn't give them useful things? Trade in this era is basically "I'll give you this pretty rock for this fancy wooden carving." At best, you could argue we'd trade them high-quality wood, but they live in the forested hills, too.
D. Considering your C both blows all of our remaining economy and does nothing... Maybe you should reconsider Trails/Restore and an expand warriors.
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A) All of these were obvious.
B) Just because we aren't guaranteed doesn't mean we're totally not going to be attacked 1000%, resulting in us dedicating a secondary action to rebutting the attack. Also, do you really think nomads are just going to be like "wow, those people right near us are planting trees, but whatever"?
C) Sauce?
D) So... support a plan that costs 1-3 Econ because my plan avowedly costs 1-2? lol.

ctulhuslp said:
What does 'Won't need stability' even mean? Like, our LoO always could use more stability, just for example.
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*shrug* if LoO triggers and we only take the -2 option we go down to -1 and can buffer it out with RH or festivals later. It's not necessarily sensible, but people like PoM are worried about a +3 stability hurting our innovation and etc.
 
Powerofmind said:
No... I'm pretty sure we've got a trade route with the metal workers.
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No, whatshisnut the new heir took a bunch of boats to the MW's neighbors, and now we know where they are and CAN build a trade route with them, because we know where they are.
Reading is the gift of knowledge.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
No were far superior, we have the wood, the population and the advancements
They have the tactics due to nomads but that's it.
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They have pretty decent population, much larger fraction of which is warriors (because slaves do actual work), who have much more experience at the whole 'war' thing and...well, about 'advancements': last time we fought them, we stole armor, shields and, IIRC, spears from them. They are absolutely on par or beyond us in military tech.
 
Ghostdevil said:
No were far superior, we have the wood, the population and the advancements
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They have generations worth of fighting experience, massed warfare tactics and a warlike population. If the entirety of out two peoples warriors meet on the field they would outnumber us by the virtue of having a higher percentage of their people fighting. They having carts takes away one of our main advantages against them.
 
So this thread is what the Parliament or Senate looks like on budget day. Everyone arguing about different approach and different topics.

Also, more warriors now if and when we need them! Thr DP, HK, and Nomads aren't going to stop expanding their military as there are plenty to gain.
 
DocMatoi said:
No, whatshisnut the new heir took a bunch of boats to the MW's neighbors, and now we know where they are and CAN build a trade route with them, because we know where they are.
Reading is the gift of knowledge.
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The more boats option IS establishing a permanent trade route to them. Reading, it's the gift of knowledge.
 
ctulhuslp said:
They have pretty decent population, much larger fraction of which is warriors (because slaves do actual work), who have much more experience at the whole 'war' thing and...well, about 'advancements': last time we fought them, we stole armor, shields and, IIRC, spears from them. They are absolutely on par or beyond us in military tech.
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Athanor said:
They have generations worth of fighting experience, massed warfare tactics and a warlike population. If the entirety of out two peoples warriors meet on the field they would outnumber us by the virtue of having a higher percentage of their people fighting. They having carts takes away one of our main advantages against them.
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Realistically a significant portion of it would HAVE to be staying home because they have Slaves, not just any slaves but Poorly treated slaves, no better than cattle.
 
Ghostdevil said:
No were far superior, we have the wood, the population and the advancements
They have the tactics due to nomads but that's it.
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In the future, they will have settlements closer to us. The only reason we can match them at the moment is our terrain defensive bonuses, but even then it's only a match. They have better weapons, better armor, hardened vets, more dedicated troops, better tactics, and a culture that gains economy from raiding. When they get close to us, our only advantage is that we'd be on defense, and those bonuses can be overcome.
 
tryrar said:
The more boats option IS establishing a permanent trade route to them. Reading, it's the gift of knowledge.
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Right. That option which we haven't selected yet, and hasn't gone into effect yet. SO we DON'T have a trade route with them yet.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
Realistically a significant portion of it would HAVE to be staying home because they have Slaves, not just any slaves but Poorly treated slaves, no better than cattle.
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Like cattle they have been tamed to be docile. Fear and blood sacrifices are powerful tools to suppress any will. As is caste system. Slave uprising are terriblely easy to put down when slaves are under fed and maimed.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Realistically a significant portion of it would HAVE to be staying home because they have Slaves, not just any slaves but Poorly treated slaves, no better than cattle.
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Yeah, no, if that were the case, Romans would have to leave majority of their armies behind. They didn't, because that's not how slave revolts work, outliers like Spartacus aside.
Dead Priests are basically more obviously evil Romans: massed warfare, backbone of infantry with elite cavalry units, heavy usage of shields, armor and javelins by infantry, slavery, engineering...huh.

Yep, that Dead Priests' Nega-SV is playing 'let's mix Aztecs and Romans together'. So consider them Romans to our Native Americans and then weigh our chances if they make and actual effort to kill us.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Yeah, no, if that were the case, Romans would have to leave majority of their armies behind. They didn't, because that's not how slave revolts work, outliers like Spartacus aside.
Dead Priests are basically more obviously evil Romans: massed warfare, backbone of infantry with elite cavalry units, heavy usage of shields, armor and javelins by infantry, slavery, engineering...huh.

Yep, that Dead Priests' Nega-SV were playing 'let's mix Aztecs and Romans together'.
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Except for the most part the Romans had a good system for literally the majority of its life time.
They weren't literally taking slaves for Human Sacrifice, they weren't taking mass female harems, they weren't obviously belligerent towards everyone and everything and Rome's army is literally God compared to the fucking DPs.

NotAlwaysFanfic said:
In the future, they will have settlements closer to us. The only reason we can match them at the moment is our terrain defensive bonuses, but even then it's only a match. They have better weapons, better armor, hardened vets, more dedicated troops, better tactics, and a culture that gains economy from raiding. When they get close to us, our only advantage is that we'd be on defense, and those bonuses can be overcome.
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Well that's in the future, they still have things around them and the Highland kingdom, their not invading next turn, even if they do their biggest factor now - The Cavalry would be pretty useless,
Plus Again their Population should be pretty big in unrest and a significant portion of their warriors should be at home making sure their stable.
So realistically their army would be about the size of ours (if they full on invade next turn) and if were about even in tech so we'd handily win inleast we crit fail hard.
 
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