wait what

so what is it just approval voting of the highest options

Welcome to PoC where you have literally convince people votes until you reach the option most desirable for you, and where you have to come back now and again and flip flop votes until you are at least unhappy over being furious!

Its !!!FUN!!!

And remember, everything you say on the thread, even the more wild thought will probably be rolled by the QM and some crazy guy will talk about it to the king if it's feasible at the time.
 
Yeah, the highest options get put in, which is why there is so much approval voting in this quest.
AN has forbidden plan voting and moratoriums, so if you really wanted to you could just read the update, drop a vote, and then leave until the next update.

Okay. How well does that function with this many options at a time, though? Not all votes are that complicated but it still looks like it'd basically be a haphazard mess to coordinate any kind of coherent direction or plan.
 
Okay. How well does that function with this many options at a time, though? Not all votes are that complicated but it still looks like it'd basically be a haphazard mess to coordinate any kind of coherent direction or plan.
A lot of people make unofficial plans, and attempt to convince others that their plan is good.

Or some people try to convince others that a specific action is better than another one.
And yeah, it's pretty terrible to coordinate, and can cause a lot of salt when people vote for one thing after someone has been campaigning hard for another thing.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't fucked up moreso than we already have, considering what we have to work with.
 
Welcome to PoC where you have literally convince people votes until you reach the option most desirable for you, and where you have to come back now and again and flip flop votes until you are at least unhappy over being furious!

Its !!!FUN!!!

And remember, everything you say on the thread, even the more wild thought will probably be rolled by the QM and some crazy guy will talk about it to the king if it's feasible at the time.
I mean. You're not exactly wrong.
Okay. How well does that function with this many options at a time, though? Not all votes are that complicated but it still looks like it'd basically be a haphazard mess to coordinate any kind of coherent direction or plan.
"Haphazard mess" basically sums up voting.

It's... a ride. Various people have developed methodologies for dealing with it. It certainly helps that everything is on fire constantly, despite us not liking things constantly being on fire, and thus we are actually very limited to how we respond.

Of course only the frequent participants are actually aware of that...
 
We are insane, man, insane, every time i have to re-read Fey Mood too remember why i do this over and over again.
And i still feel the damn thrill every update.
 
Okay. How well does that function with this many options at a time, though? Not all votes are that complicated but it still looks like it'd basically be a haphazard mess to coordinate any kind of coherent direction or plan.


But even then, you pretty much nailed how it goes, but it functions by a minority of voters who do figure how how to work the system and then having a majority of voters who trust those people not to screw them over and voted for them by proxy. For example, I will vote for Abby Normal's vote or Veekie's vote or PrimalShadow's vote because they know what is going on because they put the effort into it and I trust them enough to not lie to me. Also, I can just double check what they are telling me to tell if they are lying to me or not.

You also have to account for the fact that you are jumping in late-game. A lot of people have been here from the start and have been able to learn the system as new things piecemail rather having to learn it all at once and that makes it easier.

I think of PoC as being like other complicated game such as Dwarf Fortress or Crusader Kings II. Sure you don't know anything at the start, but if you keep at it, you will pick things up over time until you got a natural feel for how things work and you know all of these little tidbits of information from experience.

But yes, you have described it rather well.
a haphazard mess to coordinate any kind of coherent direction or plan.
 
I think of PoC as being like other complicated game such as Dwarf Fortress or Crusader Kings II. Sure you don't know anything at the start, but if you keep at it, you will pick things up over time until you got a natural feel for how things work and you know all of these little tidbits of information from experience.

That's fair. I have some more appreciation for the system and the quest now, so that was helpful.
 
I think it was intended as a feature, not a bug.

Yup. AN wanted to similar the randomness of RL governance so we would get weird things like building that road to a settlement that never got built until centuries latter if we didn't get some semblance of agreement and planning amongst the voters.
 
Well, you don't need to do that because @Kiba has already done that.
His herculean job among others has all the information compiled on the wiki Paths of Civilization Wiki
It is great for mechanics and things beyond that as well. But even that doesn't have a repository of all the WoGs sorted by topic, meaning that new people will always miss information if they aren't willing to go through the whole 5k+. But I understand that compiling such a thing would be too much to ask from anyone.

I'm pretty sure a lot of the information issues come from the fact that every update has an immensely unreliable narrator.
I have to admit that this part can be kind of grating when there isn't also a more objective source of knowledge going along with it. I mean, we supposedly play the civilization and not any individual character or group. That means that with our blindness to the rural areas we essentially have no up to date accurate description of 90% of our "body". Especially now with the factions one would expect that we'd get semi-frequent posts from the viewpoint of some yeomen, among others.
But maybe the appeal of this quest is supposed to be that we work with very incomplete information of just what exactly it is we are shaping with our votes. In which case we should get less upset at our "failure" of even approaching utopia and instead just enjoy the ride. Monstrous empires can be enjoyable to observe (in fiction), especially if they are monstrous in novel and interesting ways.
 
I'll be frank, the voting mechanisms are a big cause of trouble. They encourage trying to game the system to maximize "stats" to try all kinds of complicated schemes to move the abstract numbers at the expense of a coherent narrative. AN has been good about trying to keep some coherence, though in part that is through keeping implications and problems in the background unless they are actively necessary to address by the King. You're missing out on a lot of how Ymaryn society works, which is a bit of a shame because seeing the broader perspective and day-to-day life in an imagined community of this complexity would be quite appealing. I've encouraged him to do more stories to provide that perspective to you all, and to change the voting to be purely narrative with all the numbers (if he has to keep them) moved behind the scenes to remove the illusion that you're omniscient and can puppeteer society at a whim.

That said I also think voter ambitions are a problem, including the way Ymaryn has been min-maxed to promote technological advancement at basically all cost. Multiple times the core Ymaryn society has escaped total collapse through sheer luck, and frankly through the mercy of AN. You ought to consider simpler and more durable institutions and "survival values," look to ways to reinforce social stability at the bedrock level; the whole "question everything" ethos is a time bomb under Ymaryn society that is going to go off sooner or later. In part that's due to the basically irreconcilable tension between meritocracy and collectivism, though the way so much of Ymaryn agricultural practices are tied in completely to a religion that has been set up to destroy itself over time is another major issue. If you think SCIENCE! is going to replace the Ymaryn cult, you've got another think coming...

Also since I'm in a loquacious mood, maybe also consider the broader picture. You're all aghast at the idea of Ymaryn Alexander the Great launching a spree of conquest across the Known World. But consider the role of the Hellenistic culture the real Alexander created and spread all over the Near East. You're not going to make a pacifist run, and war is not something you will ever get rid of. The spread of Ymaryn culture across the globe, and the forced interaction of Ymaryns with other peoples, especially under a leader as keenly interested in culture as not-Alexander, could produce an incredible flowering of art, economics, science, literature, and every other field of human life. And frankly you lost any claim to being "hippy forest elves" a long time ago, and have (oh so innocently) aggregated the largest empire in the known world already. You can guess at the costs of spreading out in a wave like the Greeks, and lament the lives lost; but is that worth forgoing the chance to to write a bold new narrative on the pages of history? Is it worth forgoing the opportunity to spread the best of Ymaryn ideas to other cultures, who can make them their own and synthesize them with ideas the Ymaryn would never have alone?
 
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Is it worth forgoing the opportunity to spread the best of Ymaryn ideas to other cultures, who can make them their own and synthesize them with ideas the Ymaryn would never have alone?

But i kinda like to keep our existing values and stuff since painting the map in our color will trigger negative stability feedback loop when we failed even 1 small bit of land or vassal. The ensuing breakup of the empire would be epic in scale and damge too.
 
But i kinda like to keep our existing values and stuff since painting the map in our color will trigger negative stability feedback loop when we failed even 1 small bit of land or vassal. The ensuing breakup of the empire would be epic in scale and damge too.

Your values and institutions and structures would be under such flux that change would be inevitable. You might very well get any number of synthesis values to buttress stability from the Khemetri, or republican values from the Free Hills, or religious values from the Highlanders, or brand new values made possible by a genius ruler highly invested in culture interacting with all of the above and more. I mean it's a roll of the dice, to be sure, but what a roll!
 
What would it take to invent the Mandate of Heaven/Gods?
Contacting Khemetri and the Highlanders, both of them have the necessary traits for that concoction.
That's one of the few reasons that i want to snuff out the highlanders and destroy their culture, because every time they think the "gods" have spoken to strike at the Obsidian Dragon called the Ymarin.

And people still call us "demons of the hills"
 
You ought to consider simpler and more durable institutions and "survival values," look to ways to reinforce social stability at the bedrock level;
As has already been pointed out our existing survival values are the ones people hate most and try to get rid of...to no effect thankfully.

The last one we got rid of was In Service to Order.
We're working on Purity.
 
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Contacting Khemetri and the Highlanders, both of them have the necessary traits for that concoction.
That's one of the few reasons that i want to snuff out the highlanders and destroy their culture, because every time they think the "gods" have spoken to strike at the Obsidian Dragon called the Ymarin.

And people still call us "demons of the hills"

See this is the kind of uh... wishful thinking and willful refusal to look at the other perspective I was talking about. I mean the Highlanders are clearly irritating, but when have they ever attacked Ymaryn in a completely irrational and illogical fervor?

Oh they struck you when your back was turned! They... attacked a third party while Ymaryn were busy dealing with Horde doomstacks. They're hostile as you've systematically choked them off from any expansion for generation after generation after generation while obviously looking for a good opportunity to destroy them.

Yeah, what a bunch of crazy paranoid loons who do irrational things for no discernible reasons.
 
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See this is the kind of uh... wishful thinking and willful refusal to look at the other perspective I was talking about. I mean the Highlanders are clearly irritating, but when have they ever attacked Ymaryn in a completely irrational and illogical fervor?

Oh they struck you when your back was turned! They... attacked a third party while Ymaryn were busy dealing with Horde doomstacks. They're hostile as you've systematically choked them off from any expansion for generation after generation after generation while obviously looking for a good opportunity to destroy them.

Yeah, what a bunch of crazy paranoid loons who do irrational things for no discernible reasons.

To be completely fair, we were their stated next target, but that was mostly due to religious fervor.

And their attack on us during the Khemetri war was unjustified, but I don't think anyone actually blamed them.

And I think they can still expand south? It was mostly because we were stealing stability, econ, and border cities any time they had a stability hit.
 
See this is the kind of uh... wishful thinking and willful refusal to look at the other perspective I was talking about. I mean the Highlanders are clearly irritating, but when have they ever attacked Ymaryn in a completely irrational and illogical fervor?

Oh they struck you when your back was turned! They... attacked a third party while Ymaryn were busy dealing with Horde doomstacks. They're hostile as you've systematically choked them off from any expansion for generation after generation after generation while obviously looking for a good opportunity to destroy them.

Yeah, what a bunch of crazy paranoid loons who do irrational things for no discernible reasons.

We are pretty happy to let them expand on the direction of the Khemetri.
 
Your values and institutions and structures would be under such flux that change would be inevitable. You might very well get any number of synthesis values to buttress stability from the Khemetri, or republican values from the Free Hills, or religious values from the Highlanders, or brand new values made possible by a genius ruler highly invested in culture interacting with all of the above and more. I mean it's a roll of the dice, to be sure, but what a roll!

*being tempted to roll dice.

I mean when you put it that way, we do have that nifty frozen backup somewhere with tall forests so the grand experiment is recoverable. :V
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On topic of HK, their existence is a necessary reminder of convenient threat too keep our faith and ambition in check. The sheer grind to actually harm them would make sure our core land remain armed and guarded.

Their mono-god is also a good sounding board for our many god system, in the sense of what not to do.
 
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