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Paths of Civilization

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Alratan said:
The point is previously we could suppress them if they asked for something outrageous.

Considering that this happened because the Patricians were unhappy about losing their de facto slaves, once we've demonstrated we'll cave now, why wouldn't their next but one quest be to legalise slavery or else civil war?
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Not to be too pessimistic, but we basically seem to have reached the fail state of our civ. I agree with all the arguments that DL now is just kicking the can down the road for a future civil war. The reason it still seems like a decent idea is because it A) eases the failure transition, B) Hopefully gives us another couple hundred years to squeeze out as much advancements as we can for the successor state to make use of.

Now if it turns out there's some light at the end of the tunnel for us that'll be great, but it seems unlikely.
 
Glassware said:
We basically need to be doing an Enforce Justice + Build Roads main every turn from this point. The Roads we can use a repeated action for.
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Roads will run out of Centralisation room. Enforce Justice stops working as we get more walls, and guess who we've just incentivised to spend their Administrative Infrastructure policies on Collosal Walls.

PrimalShadow said:
Well, it would get blocked by Distribution of Power, which works on normal quests.
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Not only Spite quests can be unsuppressible.

Basically, we've lost here. The inevitable slide to a negative Centralisation state means that before too long we probably won't even have central laws, or a king with executive power.

DragonParadox said:
They would probably have to be pissed to ask for that.
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Or rational, seeing as they've seen that they can get anything they want, including thugs that have been taboo for thousands of years by threatening civil war. Now they have that lever, why wouldn't they use it on everything that gets in the way of their ambitions.

I'd expect environmental laws to go pretty soon as well.
 
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People really are making a mistake here. If we allow this through we'll have at the least low level civil wars every other turn or so, or even major nobles' uprisings. We're giving Patricians noble fiefs here. Fiefs they can use to raise their own armies. In a generation or two, they will use that.

So it's quite funny how everyone desperately wants to avoid civil war now...
 
I want to talk about: Shunmyn Dragonson. He is Alexander the Great, not Alyxunmyn.

As we all know, Alexander the Great is known as the world greatest conqueror, but Shunmyn is a Ymaryn. They don't value conquest.

So it will be interesting to see how Alexander the Great manifest as a Ymaryn.
 
veekie said:
Faction actions and Faction policies should be at Crown strength
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Could you link a source?

Alratan said:
Not only Spite quests can be unsuppressible.
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Fair enough. Point is, DoP works on most quests, so most of the time we can afford to disagree with the patricians, even if they ask for something unreasonable.

It is only when they ask for something unsupressable that we have a problem - and, I should note, without DoP it would have been a problem normally as well.
 
Susano said:
People really are making a mistake here. If we allow this through we'll have at the least low level civil wars every other turn or so, or even major nobles' uprisings. We're giving Patricians noble fiefs here. Fiefs they can use to raise their own armies. In a generation or two, they will use that.

So it's quite funny how everyone desperately wants to avoid civil war now...
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Eh... I was basically anticipating social collapse as soon as we took the half-exile reform. Hopefully our successor state will be better equipped to deal with feudalism and serfdom.
 
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Stallion Pen
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Sacred Forest
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Sacred Shore
[X] [Secondary] Art Patronage
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] More Warships x2

New and improved anti-DL approval vote.
 
Just out of interest, but why do people want to found three rather than two Free Cities?

As a side note, we can't really afford to integrate Txolla. It lowers our Centralisation and raises our caps too much.
 
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And I mean... if this had been a Nomad Chief making demands, or a foreign king - "Do this or feel my wrath!" - how many would have called that unacceptable?

And yet, because it is presented as quest mechanic, somehow it's the anti-DL group that's now presented as if wanted to somehow start the civil war?

But in-universe, that's the same!
 
Susano said:
People really are making a mistake here. If we allow this through we'll have at the least low level civil wars every other turn or so, or even major nobles' uprisings. We're giving Patricians noble fiefs here. Fiefs they can use to raise their own armies. In a generation or two, they will use that.

So it's quite funny how everyone desperately wants to avoid civil war now...
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Because our Genius Martials just said:

Academia Nut said:
Many prominent families had brought a change to the law before parliament, to better ensure that future generations would be guaranteed land to farm. It had broad support in the assembly, and Alyxunmyn was generally for accepting it, but the assembly representatives for the priests were rather opposed.
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Academia Nut said:
There was of course the yelling about laws and land distribution and the like, but Shunmyn honestly had no time for all that. He could tolerate the boring bits of war if he could do what his father had done, but the rest? Bah, that was what advisors and attendants were for.
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We won't have the two Genius Martials on the "never distribute" side of the civil war.
This changes the context of the civil war a lot.

The purpose of avoiding Distribute Land is to avoid a giant pain in the ass later. A civil war is a spiked buttplug here. It will be by definition a giant pain in the ass.

Ergo, the solution is to try to guide it to something more reasonable by combining it with Enforce Justice, Find Troublemakers and Proclaim Glory to make sure its done properly.
 
veekie said:
We won't have the two Genius Martials on the "never distribute" side of the civil war.
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There won't be a "never distribute" side of the civil war. If the Patricians start a civil war about that, there will be a rebel side and a loyalist side, and the loyalist side will have two Martial Geniuses, one of which is also a PR prodigy.

Ergo, the solution is to try to guide it to something more reasonable by combining it with Enforce Justice, Find Troublemakers and Proclaim Glory to make sure its done properly.
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That doesn't change the long term problem that this is a path to allow nobles to start civil wars later. Nothing can change that fact.
 
Susano said:
And I mean... if this had been a Nomad Chief making demands, or a foreign king - "Do this or feel my wrath!" - how many would have called that unacceptable?

And yet, because it is presented as quest mechanic, somehow it's the anti-DL group that's now presented as if wanted to somehow start the civil war?

But in-universe, that's the same!
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Not really. Fighting one's fellow Ymaryn damages Symphony, fighting nomads does not.
 
Susano said:
And I mean... if this had been a Nomad Chief making demands, or a foreign king - "Do this or feel my wrath!" - how many would have called that unacceptable?

And yet, because it is presented as quest mechanic, somehow it's the anti-DL group that's now presented as if wanted to somehow start the civil war?

But in-universe, that's the same!
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Not only civil wars and foreign invasions are really different, not only in-universe no one was threatened with civil war for now, but DL is a thing we need to take anyway, because neither I nor most of the thread are willing to butt our heads here with our elite every couple of turns.
 
Susano said:
And I mean... if this had been a Nomad Chief making demands, or a foreign king - "Do this or feel my wrath!" - how many would have called that unacceptable?

And yet, because it is presented as quest mechanic, somehow it's the anti-DL group that's now presented as if wanted to somehow start the civil war?

But in-universe, that's the same!
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If a nomad group on the scale of the Pure demanded that we distribute land, I would probably have done it. We could not fight the pure without taking significant losses and risking critical ones; and if Distributing Land saves us from that, I would probably bite the bullet. Especially with a Plague going on.
 
veekie said:
Ergo, the solution is to try to guide it to something more reasonable by combining it with Enforce Justice, Find Troublemakers and Proclaim Glory to make sure its done properly.
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The thing is, there isn't a done properly version of Distribute Land. The problem is unlocking it for the Patricians, as their incentives are to spam it enough to keep our Centralisation negative and reduce Min Centralisation, and then build GPs to lower Min Centralisation even further. And their personal incentives will always be to distribute land, as they'll keep having extra sons to give it to.

They can then force transition to a negative Centralisation form of government.

It's a self-reinforcing spiral, as Centralisation goes down the central state's ability to resist goes down with it, until we end up with the Ymaryn being the Polish Commonwealth.
 
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I'm honestly considering taking a break from the thread until the inevitable social collapse, reading about the decline of a great civilization while desperately trying to prop it up sounds depressing.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Legion0047 on Dec 4, 2017 at 3:23 AM, finished with 138896 posts and 43 votes.
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Alratan said:
The thing is, there isn't a done properly version of Distribute Land. The problem is unlocking it for the Patricians, as their incentives are to spam it enough to keep our Centralisation negative and reduce Min Centralisation, and then build GPs to lower Min Centralisation even further.

They can then force transition to a negative Centralisation form of government.
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Except the reason why the Patricians can't use DL is because the King needs to take the first action, because he needs to set the example. So how we first do it does actually affect how it turns out.

And I trust AN to balance this game more than 'oops, this means you die after doing it once. You can't stop your NPCs now, and you are doomed to fall apart'.
 
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