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Paths of Civilization

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George said:
I don't agree with very much of that at all. I don't think we want more free cities; urbanization is dangerous. I also think people overestimate the value of geniuses; they require extensive action support to give results and we often can't afford that action support.
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Mate, genius just pulverized 20 000 horsemen; for any other country it would be a death sentence, and for us without a Genius it would, hm, cost Thunder Horse at least.

Genius Mystic gave us first organized religion in the world.
Genius Martial Yenyna fucked up 3 different enemies, one of them easily peer power, during war with Khemetri.

Another Genius Mystic, Torm-whoever, was, uh, with a meteor event; the lowest possible way of interpreting her feats means she singlehandledly invented stellar mechanics, algebra and underpinnings of geometry.

Yshuyn, well. Poor sod was thrown into ruling kingdom in the pointless was, so his Genius was wasted; but at least we got Cynicism out of it approximately a thousand years ahead of time.


Each of Geniuses we had was a massive gamechanger whose name will be remembered by history books.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Nnnot really.
GA innovations can be extremely useful; "support a faction and make several free cities which we want anyway" is way lesser opportunity cost than, say, not getting Cultural Genius.
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Or even something like, say, an opportunity to start the Great Library on a separate mega project track. A social project that takes no actions is kind of a no brainer, because it will be refunded by Reformers and likely give us some ridiculous bonuses to mysticism, technology, or culture. And if not that, almost certainly something that douses the fires left by Mass Levy.
 
Titus Stargazer said:
Or even something like, say, an opportunity to start the Great Library on a separate mega project track. A social project that takes no actions is kind of a no brainer, because it will be refunded by Reformers and likely give us some ridiculous bonuses to mysticism, technology, or culture. And if not that, almost certainly something that douses the fires left by Mass Levy.
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Yes; opportunity cost of not picking other GA innovations is bound to be higher than opportunity cost of Supporting Urban Poor.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Nnnot really.
GA innovations can be extremely useful; "support a faction and make several free cities which we want anyway" is way lesser opportunity cost than, say, not getting Cultural Genius.
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If I remember correctly, on of the Golden Age options was "invite khem to games and get them back to Post Epic Age relations", so yeah, GA options are super duper good.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Mate, genius just pulverized 20 000 horsemen; for any other country it would be a death sentence, and for us without a Genius it would, hm, cost Thunder Horse at least.

Genius Mystic gave us first organized religion in the world.
Genius Martial Yenyna fucked up 3 different enemies, one of them easily peer power, during war with Khemetri.

Another Genius Mystic, Torm-whoever, was, uh, with a meteor event; the lowest possible way of interpreting her feats means she singlehandledly invented stellar mechanics, algebra and underpinnings of geometry.

Yshuyn, well. Poor sod was thrown into ruling kingdom in the pointless was, so his Genius was wasted; but at least we got Cynicism out of it approximately a thousand years ahead of time.


Each of Geniuses we had was a massive gamechanger whose name will be remembered by history books.
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Yes, with massive action/policy support a Genius got amazing results; that's completely irrelevant to what they do with zero action support. You even point it out with Yshuyn! Cynicism is not some huge boon far more valuable than other GA options.

Raichu1972 said:
If I remember correctly, on of the Golden Age options was "invite khem to games and get them back to Post Epic Age relations", so yeah, GA options are super duper good.
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Okay, but if Social Value Slots can't compete with that, then they might not be worth throwing the entirety of our mid turn vote options at getting them. An independent argument for their worth is needed, not just 'but other GA stuff is good...'
 
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George said:
Yes, with massive action/policy support a Genius got amazing results; that's completely irrelevant to what they do with zero action support. You even point it out with Yshuyn! Cynicism is not some huge boon far more valuable than other GA options.
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Ah yes, that massive support we've given to Qurbkyn and Tormulynna. Really, if you want to argue against geniuses, mention that Artisan guy no one remembers. But geniuses have achieved a lot with little support from us.
 
Titus Stargazer said:
Yeah, but you have to remember we entered the Classical Era early, partially due to the development of cynicism.
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so it's a thousand years before its time, just like our era, but at the same time it's perfectly suited to its era

Still, geniuses are one of the best investments possible IF WE HAVE THE ACTIONS TO USE THEM. Otherwise they're kind of meh, and we're better off directly buying material/whatever innovations.
 
agumentic said:
Ah yes, that massive support we've given to Qurbkyn and Tormulynna. Really, if you want to argue against geniuses, mention that Artisan guy no one remembers. But geniuses have achieved a lot with little support from us.
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I think Qybrkyn was able to produce results without actions because we didn't start with control of those results. If he'd been part of our government, then we would've seen far lesser innovations that didn't have the potential to evolve outside our control. I believe he simulated action support by essentially rebelling and commanding people on his own in the same way a King would.

And again, you give an example that supports my point that Geniuses sometimes don't do much.

Also it'd be way easier to discuss this if you'd use Academia Nut's spelling of the people you're discussing. I don't recall when Tormulynna was so I can't research him/her to refute your point since you misspelled it.
 
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Umi-san said:
you mean the one who married the heroic martial daddy? And sucked at talking and etc.? I'm guessing so, considering how bad she was at everything else.
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It wasn't actually marriage, but an affair for reasons that heroic martial daddy was never able to truly discern. Because she just did it without even implying it as thanks for him funding her research.
 
George said:
I think Qybrkyn was able to produce results without actions because we didn't start with control of those results. If he'd been part of our government, then we would've seen far lesser innovations that didn't have the potential to evolve outside our control. I believe he simulated action support by essentially rebelling and commanding people on his own in the same way a King would.

And again, you give an example that supports my point that Geniuses sometimes don't do much.
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Well, you can think that, but your previous "geniuses always need support to achieve cool things" point is clearly incorrect.

And while geniuses may not do much, the chances of such look pretty low right now.

Plus, just the presence of a genius is a good argument to throw an action to support them, which is taken into account.
 
Salt People: You got conquered by who?
Forhuch: The other Salt People.
Salt People: The other who? And you're ex-nomads, with horse archers. How did you get conquered?
Forhuch: Um, we...attacked them?
Salt People: Were they former nomads?
Forhuch: No? They got less way horses than us, and they wiped us out with a crossbow army like hundred thousand strong.
Salt People: Sounds unbelievable.
Forhuch: No! They really did wiped out our entire army! 20,000 cavalry!
Salt People: Maybe they're the same people who went apeshit against the nomads all these ages ago...
Forhuch: Uh, what?
Salt People: Right. Nomads have zero long term memory.
 
bluefur87 said:
It wasn't actually marriage, but an affair for reasons that heroic martial daddy was never able to truly discern. Because she just did it without even implying it as thanks for him funding her research.
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even otakus like heroic martial daddy ;)

While it was never quite clear if she was doing it for the funding there there was definitely a lot of accusations that she was, or that he was leveraging his position to get her to do it, and so forth.
 
bluefur87 said:
It wasn't actually marriage, but an affair for reasons that heroic martial daddy was never able to truly discern. Because she just did it without even implying it as thanks for him funding her research.
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Maybe she peered into the future through the Warp and saw the Greatness and Glory Rulwyna and the Red Banner Company would achieve, and thus decided to have the affair for the future of the Ymaryn? :V
 
We are probably going to lose a few trade dominances, but I think that we'll be okay so long as we don't end up in another King of the Hill war.
 
notgreat said:
It is clear that we can. If we will or not remains to be seen, but we almost certainly can. And Expand Economy has been a reaction option every turn that we're not at max Econ, and I think even some where we were.
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Factually false. Here are some counterexamples:

Academia Nut said:
Reaction (Note: Build Aqueduct - Redshore will prevent Stability loss. Any other options allow 1 Stability damage to occur, and 2 Econ to head off to the Western Ymaryn)
[] [React] Build Aqueduct - Redshore (2x-3 Econ)
[] [React] Main Raise Army
[] [React] Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Raise Army
[] [React] Sec More Warships + Sec Raise Army
[] [React] Main Build Mills
[] [React] Main Build Docks
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At the time, were were under max econ (source).

Academia Nut said:
[] [React] Main Plant Cotton
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[] [React] Build Temple for Observatory
-[] [React] Horse Valley
-[] [React] Moonwell
[] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
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At the time, were were ALSO under max econ, albeit barely so (source).

notgreat said:
I don't think we've ever seen a point where a reaction action was incredibly unquestionably obvious. There were some where we knew what we wanted, but the penalties were never severe for choosing something else. Even the panic Aqueduct level 2 was only -1 Stability, which is valued at a bit over a secondary action, a loss but not a major one.
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Academia Nut said:
[] [React] Main Proclaim Glory
[] [React] Main Hunt Troublemakers (-1 Intrigue, -2 Wealth, 0 to +1 Stability, information on problems)
[] [React] Main More Warships
[] [React] Support Ironworks (3/5-8? actions complete)
[] [React] Main Study Metal
[] [React] Main Plant Cotton
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Distribute Land
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And here is a third example, for good measure. We were at all of six Econ here.



So no; we absolutely don't get Expand Economy reactions all of the time.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Maybe she peered into the future through the Warp and saw the Greatness and Glory Rulwyna and the Red Banner Company would achieve, and thus decided to have the affair for the future of the Ymaryn? :V
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Considering that Ymaryn would literally have collapsed without Rulwyna being just bullshit...
*scribbles that down as notes for deification legend of Rulwyna*
 
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