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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
We definitely can unless the mechanics have changed or we for some reason don't get PSN.
Double main Expand Economy eats up 28 EE, and the overflow refund maxxes out at 4. We end up at EE 6. We can spend up to 4 Econ during the midturn and still be able to complete the quest (Since we need to be at EE 10 to trigger the cities)

It does lock up our reaction though. If something big comes up and we need to spend the reaction elsewhere, then we'll fail the and not get the cities.
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That is what makes it an open question. To reform cities, we either need an Econ-Expansion GA purchase (which is not particularly likely), OR we need to both spend <5 Econ midturn and use both our PSN and our Reaction on Expanding Economy. I don't think those are safe bets, so the outcome is up in the air.

ctulhuslp said:
And an irritating thing here: no markets.
Because no cities, sure, but it's still a concern.
I think 4.5 Infras is about right.
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Yeah, that is a bit annoying. I would have preferred for the policies to go Valleyguard Marketplace (3/3), Redshore Ironworks (6/9) and for Redshore to go Redshore Ironworks (9/9).
 
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PrimalShadow said:
I don't think those are safe bets, so the outcome is up in the air.
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I think it's a safe bet that we'll have the option to. Whether we take it or not is another question entirely, but I think it's fairly safe to say we'll be able to.

On a side note, I find it very unusual that Redshore went for a temple instead of starting an Aqueduct. They're a level 3 city operating on a level 2 Aqueduct, that can't be good.
 
veekie said:
In their case they got whatever defenses the Forhuch already built/inherited, they got a body of armsmen, they won't have the money to develop cavalry for a while and so a trade mission to make sure that the Nomads stay go, and also get the money to build cavalry is up there?

Also it occurs to me that the priests are planting textiles because they want paper and all the paper stock is textile.
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No, it is because priests need cash to build a temple.

AN said once, when the thread was planning how to build a lvl2 temple several turns ago, that priests will not build temple lvl2 after lvl1 because they need to get cash first; even said that they will do cash crops and something for econ IIRC.
 
notgreat said:
I think it's a safe bet that we'll have the option to. Whether we take it or not is another question entirely, but I think it's fairly safe to say we'll be able to.

On a side note, I find it very unusual that Redshore went for a temple instead of starting an Aqueduct. They're a level 3 city operating on a level 2 Aqueduct, that can't be good.
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I suspect it might be because the city requires temple services due to its large size, and that the lack is felt more strongly than the lack of an aqueduct.
ctulhuslp said:
No, it is because priests need cash to build a temple.

AN said once, when the thread was planning how to build a lvl2 temple several turns ago, that priests will not build temple lvl2 after lvl1 because they need to get cash first; even said that they will do cash crops and something for econ IIRC.
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If they just wanted cash they'd probably do drugs or luxuries(for the spice dominance)
 
notgreat said:
I think it's a safe bet that we'll have the option to. Whether we take it or not is another question entirely, but I think it's fairly safe to say we'll be able to.
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:rolleyes:

What does it matter if we have the option to do something, if it is an option we clearly won't take?
Maybe our reaction is needed to deal with the fallout of our over-levy Martial. Maybe we need it to get our new government working properly. Maybe we discover some other problem with Hunt Troublemakers that demands our attention. Point is, who cares that we could have double-expanded econ if we can't afford to spend our actions that way because the alternatives are too important?

Not to mention, it is not even certain that the Reaction will let us Expand Econ as one of the options; it is not always an option, after all.
 
notgreat said:
I think it's a safe bet that we'll have the option to. Whether we take it or not is another question entirely, but I think it's fairly safe to say we'll be able to.

On a side note, I find it very unusual that Redshore went for a temple instead of starting an Aqueduct. They're a level 3 city operating on a level 2 Aqueduct, that can't be good.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the city dedicated a Temple to Hyryn, God of Smiths and the Underworld.

This could be because of a combination of just completing the level 3 Ironworks, which is likely insane in size, and the fact that Axyl is considered to be forged by Hyryn himself as an instrument of War, and a ton of Urban Poor with military experience serving under Axyl just so happen to be returning home.
 
PrimalShadow said:
:rolleyes:

What does it matter if we have the option to do something, if it is an option we clearly won't take?
Maybe our reaction is needed to deal with the fallout of our over-levy Martial. Maybe we need it to get our new government working properly. Maybe we discover some other problem with Hunt Troublemakers that demands our attention. Point is, who cares that we could have double-expanded econ if we can't afford to spend our actions that way because the alternatives are too important?

Not to mention, it is not even certain that the Reaction will let us Expand Econ as one of the options; it is not always an option, after all.
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Eh. We can always Support UP. Feels like overusing it, but whatever.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the city dedicated a Temple to Hyryn, God of Smiths and the Underworld.

This could be because of a combination of just completing the level 3 Ironworks, which is likely insane in size, and the fact that Axyl is considered to be forged by Hyryn himself as an instrument of War, and a ton of Urban Poor with military experience serving under Axyl just so happen to be returning home.
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Wait a minute.
Doh.

Our temples are our hospitals.
We've been building cities with a lot of ways to keep clean, but nobody to provide psych and medical services if you do get sick other than a tiny shrine from long before.
That would indeed be more urgent than even the aqueduct.
 
I think it is a good thing that we are going from over levy to offensive. Going from over levy to peace likely would have made the crash harder. Now we can sort of ease back into peace.
 
veekie said:
Wait a minute.
Doh.

Our temples are our hospitals.
We've been building cities with a lot of ways to keep clean, but nobody to provide psych and medical services if you do get sick other than a tiny shrine from long before.
That would indeed be more urgent than even the aqueduct.
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That might not be as much the case anymore.

Remember that we have shaman doctors patrolling the Baths, as well as medical doctors being taught at the Academy, which currently only exists in Redshore.

If we had a lack of doctors, Redshore would have been wiped out by the Horsemans Plague.
 
Raichu1972 said:
That might not be as much the case anymore.

Remember that we have shaman doctors patrolling the Baths, as well as medical doctors being taught at the Academy, which currently only exists in Redshore.

If we had a lack of doctors, Redshore would have been wiped out by the Horsemans Plague.
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We had doctors, but I'd wager that at level 3 we actually need to expand the facility that PROVIDES doctoring to the city? Which is either Academy or Temple. We've been supporting it with shrine previously, but our policies typically fill holes. If the Health law didn't prioritize aqueducts over the temple theres a good reason, it's not the guilds doing it and the priests aren't powerful enough to be first in line for the policy use.
 
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Raichu1972 said:
That might not be as much the case anymore.

Remember that we have shaman doctors patrolling the Baths, as well as medical doctors being taught at the Academy, which currently only exists in Redshore.

If we had a lack of doctors, Redshore would have been wiped out by the Horsemans Plague.
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Back during the starpox plague (which is really far back) it was said the priests have assistants who at best have a rudimentary religious education, but have gotten the necessary training in medical skills. Skip a few centuries ahead and we probably do have doctors independent of temples... but that might still be where they are trained...
 
PrimalShadow said:
What does it matter if we have the option to do something, if it is an option we clearly won't take?
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PrimalShadow said:
we need to get to 10 EE for that to happen, and it is unclear whether we can do that.
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It is clear that we can. If we will or not remains to be seen, but we almost certainly can. And Expand Economy has been a reaction option every turn that we're not at max Econ, and I think even some where we were.

Heck some turns we get more than 2 Expand Economy opportunities on the midturn, where we can do that instead of diplomacy actions.

I don't think we've ever seen a point where a reaction action was incredibly unquestionably obvious. There were some where we knew what we wanted, but the penalties were never severe for choosing something else. Even the panic Aqueduct level 2 was only -1 Stability, which is valued at a bit over a secondary action, a loss but not a major one.
 
veekie said:
Wait a minute.
Doh.

Our temples are our hospitals.
We've been building cities with a lot of ways to keep clean, but nobody to provide psych and medical services if you do get sick other than a tiny shrine from long before.
That would indeed be more urgent than even the aqueduct.
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More important than that I would say is the fact that temples act as gates for building things like libraries, as well as priests having enough presence in the region to do things like recruit and train spiritual orders, or raise spirit touched people to fulfill their callings.
 
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Well, we do have a need for temples, and a temple in our biggest city is useful. RA might be a problem, but I'd bet it's kind of a problem we need to run into to fix. If priests get too unbearable, maybe Patricians will shut them down.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Nnnot really.
GA innovations can be extremely useful; "support a faction and make several free cities which we want anyway" is way lesser opportunity cost than, say, not getting Cultural Genius.
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I don't agree with very much of that at all. I don't think we want more free cities; urbanization is dangerous. I also think people overestimate the value of geniuses; they require extensive action support to give results and we often can't afford that action support.
 
I hope that one of our aggressive neighbor attack the highlanders. It would be nice for them to get ganged up on for a change.
 
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