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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
I strongly disagree. Next turn we might still be at war, but the original Epic Age didn't even last a full turn. Similarly, I suspected the war will either be mostly or completely over within a turn and a half. Even though the Forhuch are more mobile, we can siege their villages and cities until they capitulate or die. Xohyr fell in a turn, having 2 turns is plenty.
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Even if we somehow manage to instantly beat the Forhuch, we have to go at the HK after. Then the nomads. Then deal with the fallout. Assuming we'll do all of that and still have time to freely More Warships with no downsides is overconfidence.

Six martial is a 7% increase to our current total. I seriously doubt this will be more significant than massively increased innovation rolls.

notgreat said:
Stronger quests have stronger demands. We don't need to worry about failing the current quest because it has no failure penalty. A new quest might have one- heck it might not even have a success bonus. Being happy doesn't prevent the faction from throwing bad quests at us: see the Guild current quest, we got that when they were happy with us. About the only thing we can say about stronger quests is that they're harder- the patricians wanted 4 actions and 16 stats, the guilds want 5 actions and 30 stats, the ponies the patricians wanted weren't exactly cheap either. Stronger factions usually demand more, and the benefit is sometimes worth it.
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Even on the off chance that the quest rolls very poorly, we ignore it and go a bunch of turns with one less faction quest to worry about, which is value in its own right. We then use the saved actions to do whatever the hell we want. This isn't a concern.

If the reward for the current quest were completely amazing or we actually needed naval at the moment, then sure. But that's not the case. Straining ourselves for 1 naval during a landlocked war is folly.
 
8bitBob said:
Even if we somehow manage to instantly beat the Forhuch, we have to go at the HK after. Then the nomads. Then deal with the fallout. Assuming we'll do all of that and still have time to freely More Warships with no downsides is overconfidence.

Six martial is a 7% increase to our current total. I seriously doubt this will be more significant than massively increased innovation rolls.


Even on the off chance that the quest rolls very poorly, we ignore it and go a bunch of turns with one less faction quest to worry about, which is value in its own right. We then use the saved actions to do whatever the hell we want. This isn't a concern.

If the reward for the current quest were completely amazing or we actually needed naval at the moment, then sure. But that's not the case. Straining ourselves for 1 naval during a landlocked war is folly.
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Free naval.
We must have some naval presence, because Freehills, while ally, are not 100% trustworthy and not guaranteed to survive. Plus having navy worth a name will encourage trade with colonies and maritime connectivity due to securing trade routes and flying the metaphoric (and literal) flag saying "Don't mess with Ymaryn".
Granted, with Mass Levy people will probably be a bit careful about poking us, but still.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Free naval.
We must have some naval presence, because Freehills, while ally, are not 100% trustworthy and not guaranteed to survive. Plus having navy worth a name will encourage trade with colonies and maritime connectivity due to securing trade routes and flying the metaphoric (and literal) flag saying "Don't mess with Ymaryn".
Granted, with Mass Levy people will probably be a bit careful about poking us, but still.
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Not getting 1 free naval does not prevent us from taking More Warships in a few turns anyway.
 
Okay people.

While the vote for how to respond to the traders is certainly important, and will absolutely have effects on how things play out, trying to convince everyone else that your vote is the best vote isn't really doing anyone any favors here. There are advantages to each option and each side makes good points, but many people are ignoring the other side's good points for reasoning I shall not speculate on.

It's... Yeah, I'd like to think we can all agree this isn't a hill worth fighting over. Express your points, acknowledge that other people's speculation may have some merit unless it is way out there, and, unless you feel like we are making a critical error, don't resort to the passive aggressive behavior of calling out the logic of everyone who disagrees with you every two pages. If someone is curious, try to explain to them. If you don't feel you can properly express the other side's stance, say so. This is quickly stopping being an actually conductive argument though.
 
8bitBob said:
Even if we somehow manage to instantly beat the Forhuch, we have to go at the HK after. Then the nomads. Then deal with the fallout. Assuming we'll do all of that and still have time to freely More Warships with no downsides is overconfidence.
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The last Epic Age also involved a 3-way war, and it ended a turn after it started.

8bitBob said:
If the reward for the current quest were completely amazing or we actually needed naval at the moment, then sure. But that's not the case. Straining ourselves for 1 naval during a landlocked war is folly.
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We need naval eventually. 1 Naval is not sustainable. 2 turns from now the war will almost certainly be over, at least mostly. Nomads might still be around but we don't need Mass Levy for them alone. Thus, it will not be straining ourselves during a land war.

And yes, +1 Naval is a very good quest reward. It's along the lines of 2 or 3 secondaries. (1 More Warships, 1.5ish in stats) That's better than average for a quest reward.

More importantly, skipping ahead in no way means we can ignore the quest anymore than we can now. In fact, it is less so. If we go turn extension we've got 2 turns before the next quest, but this one fails woth no penalty. Then, we have another couple turns for that quest to fail before we need to worry about punishments. Skipping the first two turns certainly doesn't help there.
 
notgreat said:
The last Epic Age also involved a 3-way war, and it ended a turn after it started.


We need naval eventually. 1 Naval is not sustainable. 2 turns from now the war will almost certainly be over, at least mostly. Nomads might still be around but we don't need Mass Levy for them alone. Thus, it will not be straining ourselves during a land war.

And yes, +1 Naval is a very good quest reward. It's along the lines of 2 or 3 secondaries. (1 More Warships, 1.5ish in stats) That's better than average for a quest reward.

More importantly, skipping ahead in no way means we can ignore the quest anymore than we can now. In fact, it is less so. If we go turn extension we've got 2 turns before the next quest, but this one fails woth no penalty. Then, we have another couple turns for that quest to fail before we need to worry about punishments. Skipping the first two turns certainly doesn't help there.
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Yeah, taking Warships this turn means that "freed up" secondary of ships + secondary or two of generating stats for it can go to anything else, like cement or whatever.
It's not like Guild actions are all that useful for war-related things.
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
 
You know, with Genius being "at least" semi-stable in admin and diplo, I wonder how bullshit he is if they are actually good. Can you imagine, Genius Military and Heroic Admin?
 
agumentic said:
You know, with Genius being "at least" semi-stable in admin and diplo, I wonder how bullshit he is if they are actually good. Can you imagine, Genius Military and Heroic Admin?
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That is a good point. @Academia Nut , are we rolling for our governor if we go this route? If so, I'll make my vote for that.

[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)

[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads

[X] [Target] Split focus between the Forhuch and Highlanders, hold against the nomads

[X] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)

[X] [React] Sec Support Sacred Orders

[X] [Kick] No further kick
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick
 
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[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick
 
*sigh*

I know it's overused a lot, but the new faction quest really is pursuing a shiny. It's a mystery box, but one with a top-end only moderately above our current quest and a bottom-end far below. The current trader quest is excellent- it's moderately hard to complete but something we need to get done anyway, and the reward is significant.

Now if we could get a new Guild quest or Yeomen quest or something that'd be great. A new trader quest just isn't something we want right now.
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick
 
Assuming that we have one more update before the next turn-
-This update: Kick the Forhuch's teeth in
-Next update: Declare war against the Highlanders, send our cavalry against the nomads
-Main turn: Switch to balanced policy
-Following update: Peace out the highlanders

I figure that we do not want to be at peace until we've managed to demobilize our levies. That might mean that we'll need to drag the highland war out past the point where we can secure our wargoals.
 
Wait, why people are going for new Trader quest?
Do they want to get caught with insufficient navy?

No, seriously, how do you see a new quest benefiting us more than some free navy, folks?
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick
 
[X] [Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X] [Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)
 
ctulhuslp said:
Wait, why people are going for new Trader quest?
Do they want to get caught with insufficient navy?

No, seriously, how do you see a new quest benefiting us more than some free navy, folks?
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Because of all the reasons I listed and probably more. An extra point of navy is nice, but is not something we can't live without. The quest rewards are only one factor in many.
 
8bitBob said:
Because of all the reasons I listed and probably more. An extra point of navy is nice, but is not something we can't live without. The quest rewards are only one factor in many.
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Uhh.
What does the other option even do? What's to say another quest will be any good? It would be one thing if you were buying some clear benefit. Now you are, hm, buying cat in the bag and giving away actually decent (quite good with new wealth prices) reward.

Besides, Guild actions are going to be, hm. Either we are still going to be at war come main turn, in which case Mass Levy precludes us from taking Econ- or Wealth-gaining actions, which leaves a few alternatives to taking warships anyway. Oor we are done with war, in which case "we are at landlocked war" argument does not apply anymore.

So we are likely to take Warships either way, barring taking some super-expensive in Wealth option at midturn.
 
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