Carrnage
Human
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- New Zealand
Unless they died.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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From what AN said, everyone pools all of their innovation rolls for everyone to benefit from.
Also, of the two we are inviting to the Artisan Games(Freehills and Storm Ymaryn, I think), one of them basically definitively does not have Intrigue while we do which means tech is easier for us to grab from them and harder for them to steal from us. Plus this from the update:
That infrastructure bit means that some of our tech is advanced enough that just looking at it is not enough to replicate it. Also as this bit says the weapons innovations will be very useful to us going forward.
Also there was the bit about how the People on the ground are pretty confident that we can nick more than they can. The confluence of this has basically made the thread consider it an okay trade. Also you forgot your artisan vote.
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The People on the ground are probably wrong, as they won't be able to see how their technology can be used by cultures that don't hobble themselves with anachronistic morals. This is particularly true with regards to infrastructure. They're prisoners of their own cultural prejudices.
They also probably don't realise how rare and unusual innovations are for everyone else. Other people probably go centuries between innovations, given how we've massively optimised our build to produce them, and no one else has, and how rare innovations are for us. There's probably not going to be anything for us to steal the vast majority of the time.
We also don't have the Sharingan. We have nothing even vaguely resembling it.
They also probably don't realise how rare and unusual innovations are for everyone else. Other people probably go centuries between innovations, given how we've massively optimised our build to produce them, and no one else has, and how rare innovations are for us. There's probably not going to be anything for us to steal the vast majority of the time.
We also don't have the Sharingan. We have nothing even vaguely resembling it.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Also it gives us a chance to discover heroic artisans from other countries and poach them.
- Location
- Austria
I did not forget it, I just don't know what to vote for.
Thing is. This renders our Artisan Games' bonus kind of meaningless - we are doubling our innovation rolls...and then sharing them with everyone who do not have to contend with those goddamn skyrocketing action costs?
It means that all the shitty action costs were pointless waste of time and now every neighbour gets free access to concrete, advanced ironworking (inb4 they net steel out of our ironworking experience), embroidery, catamaran tech, biremes, advanced gold purifying thing via mercury and basically we are ceding the comparative advantage from PK.
The argument for it is maxing our profit from PiA techstealing and whatnot, but I am, frankly, not convinced it's the best trade - especially since we, sadly, cannot walk back that stupid choice of reward from Artisan Games.
BungieONI
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Your two statements in the beginning are actually contradictory. If they do not have anachronistic morals, then obviously one of the things they will be more likely to do is war. And doing more war and preparing to do war, and speccing your civ for more war than we do is that you advance militarily rather quickly. Thus your claim that they will not have anything for us to steal the vast majority of the time is unsupported.
Now, you may say "They won't show military stuff to us". I shall say this: The games are a warrior's game. This is the Iron Age, there's not much else it would be. That was the point when we made them, and why they give bonus martial cap. It is simply the case that they expanded beyond that during their creation. Further, the people on the ground expect to see such things, and I assume would be rather put out with people if they did not and given our relative power people actually have to pay attention to not pissing us off too much.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Ha, morals are a cultural adaptation that help survival like any other, needing casus belli by word of God has been a driving force for why none of our subordinates have tried to use force to rebel.
greater justice and life of arete ensures that the extreme cronyism and corruption of the era is much less in the people.
Pride in Acceptance has made us much better at handling divergent subordinates than other nations.
Philosopher Kings has created a rich and useful tradition of lessons on governance that ensures all of our kings are better than the median.
Well, if you look at it as an 'us vs them' mentality, then yes, there is no way you can actually justify this.
The purpose of diplomacy though is to constantly make everyone either indebted to you or eager to do stuff to get on your good side. It isn't something that is going to directly pay off with tech incredibly well (though I wouldn't be surprised if we got a few choice advances), but it is something that makes others think and act more as a lose alliance, with the Ymaryn being the center of it.
It isn't big now, and I wouldn't be surprised if we lost tech more than gained tech, but this just further amplifies the bullshit diplomatic advantage The International Games is giving us. More people will travel to our lands, take on aspects of our culture, and see the Ymaryn as the city on the hill that they should aspire to be and defend when the heathens attack.
Also, we stand a good chance to teach people how to farm gud this way. We must spread the holy word on proper farming methods! It what makes the Ymaryn the Ymaryn before all else!
The purpose of diplomacy though is to constantly make everyone either indebted to you or eager to do stuff to get on your good side. It isn't something that is going to directly pay off with tech incredibly well (though I wouldn't be surprised if we got a few choice advances), but it is something that makes others think and act more as a lose alliance, with the Ymaryn being the center of it.
It isn't big now, and I wouldn't be surprised if we lost tech more than gained tech, but this just further amplifies the bullshit diplomatic advantage The International Games is giving us. More people will travel to our lands, take on aspects of our culture, and see the Ymaryn as the city on the hill that they should aspire to be and defend when the heathens attack.
Also, we stand a good chance to teach people how to farm gud this way. We must spread the holy word on proper farming methods! It what makes the Ymaryn the Ymaryn before all else!
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In the ancient world, no it doesn't. The ymaryn have very, very, very heavily optimised themselves to generate and pass innovation rolls. Our neighbours will go to war, but they won't learn from it. They'll fight as their grandfathers and great grandfathers did, who'll themselves fought as their own grandfathers and great grandfathers did.
I don't believe that's possible at this level of cultural development. States that aren't the Ymaryn shouldn't have the cultural continuity to even remember this kind of thing. Dynasties will rise and fall, and the inevitable human tendency to discount the status quo as natural and automatic will kick in.
The Olympic Games didn't even stop the Greeks from warring with each other, and they at least spoke and wrote the same language and shared the same basic cultural assumptions.
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Except we're currently doing exactly that.
Full blown alliance? No, but we're expanding our definition of civilized to create a culture of those who attend the games and the culture that doesn't.
Those that threaten our fellow attendees will inevitably get more into the shit book than other people. Especially if the games are providing huge benefits to everyone around.
BungieONI
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Well, something to talk about here. This is about sharing innovation rolls and not as much innovations we already have. There will be some of sharing already present innovations, that's the nature of what they are really and the old descriptions from the last time this was up for grabs. So since innovation rolls are the main focus, the playing field is more level in that we all benefit. This is actually good for a reason I'll get into in a moment.
However, given that the Guilds are getting their hackles up about sharing, how open to questions do you think our contestants are gonna be? I would assume some, but this is something to ask AN about really since its below our normal level of awareness by a pretty ridiculous amount.
Finally, there is the fact that the people who want in feel like they have been snubbed for the long term. That is not good, since it gives them more reason to think more thoughts of "Hmmm... Why am I not attacking these guys?". By holding them in the International Games and Artisan Games we basically hold them in something a little bit like a Prisoners Dilemma. Given past experience we are very unlikely to attack another participant, but considering the social development of the other participants then it is possible they may attack us or another participant as well. As such if such a thing happened the other participants have carte blanche to attack the instigator since they flagrantly broke the compact represented by the Games. And more than likely, everyone knows this is a thing, or will once they are in it.
I don't believe this will meaningfully effect the non-Ymaryn. Yes, we will get pulled into more foreign wars and develop a concept of the Ymaryn-man's burden based on past history, but I don't see anything that will cause a real deterrent to Games participants fighting (as we've already eliminated that taboo). The opportunity cost of potential innovation gains are something that the participants rulers won't have the cultural perspective to understand.
The forces that cause conflict are just too big for something like the Games to prevent. Sure, they may push it back a few years, but long range travel is simply too expensive for something this small.
Sharing our innovation rolls like this should actually make it less likely that we'll be able to build up consistent partners, as the continual outflow of innovations should be continually destabilising trade patterns and societies.
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BungieONI
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*blinks*
Okay I am sorry you must have missed the memo, but there are several instances where our enemies were not only more advanced in war fighting technologies than us due to doing war more than us but they also had more tactical acumen and stored experience and tradition. The HK and Xohyr back during the Lowland wars, discovered mass group tactics long long before we did. Also, take a look at the Forhuch! Or the Trelli! Or Freehills who developed a phalanx. In some places we beat out others, but the inherent assumption in this statement that "we learn from war, but they don't" is incredibly wrong.
Like, if what you said is true then none of these could have happened.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Actually the games are already solving our recurring diplomatic problem that we do not consistently send trade missions to other nations to maintain ties and thus our alliances and friendships are forgotten.
BungieONI
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Well, cultural continuity is kind of not a problem if constant contact is maintained. And that is exactly what the games do.
For example the Harmurri. We were fighting them after the Burning of Xohyr, because they didn't know who we even were. But then we invited them to the games and they have never, ever made hostile moves towards us since over the course of at least 3 centuries.
We don't know that yet. This will be the test of fire. Will the Storm Ymaryn and Freehills hold off from attacking us while distracted? I'm mildly optimistic but it is by no means a sure thing.
This could all turn into a feeding frenzy that heralds the end of the Ymarym empire, which would be a definitive proof that the games failed.
That matches with them getting an innovation once every few centuries. We should also already be getting the benefits of military and tactical advances from the normal games, as that's what they're all about. The Artisan games won't show us how to command a Phalanx.
How does that prevent dynastic turnover and social change in our neighbors?
I see the International part of the games as what makes them our third most powerful megaproject, with the leaders being the insanity that is the Sacred Heard and our bs farming wonder that is The Greater Sacred Forest. Making that diplo advantage stronger is definitely a benefit not to be taken likely
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Compare that to the Highland kingdom that were willing to wed their ruler with our ruler then a few generations later were hostile to us because the relationship was forgotten.
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There is a hard cap to how much diplomatic relations can actually do. It's basically 100% certain that we'll eventually be attacked by one or more of the games participants. And we'll have made them even more dangerous by letting them outsource their R&D for a pittance while they optimize for warring. Now maybe there will be a reduction in the amount of times we're attacked by them that's enough to make it worth it. I think that's a pretty thin reed to grasp though.
It is rather arrogant of you to say "they are so backwards they won't understand they will lose innovation rolls if they attack us". Especially since AN controls other nations like they are negaverses at least a bit.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Because we'd be making friends and allies in their top warriors and top craftsmen and inevitable political entourage they send.
Why would they think they'll lose them? They'll think they'll conquer us and have our cities producing the innovations for them directly.
I don't think the Games are relevant to this decision. If they were strong enough to attack us, I think they would. As they haven't, they haven't considered themselves strong enough. They also get rich acting as a middle men for our goods to the Indian Ocean trade routes, which is another disincentive
I don't think that whether they send a few people to compete in the games is relevant at the level of a civilization. It's just much to small to matter. What will matter is the reduction or end in the wealth and power disparity that those few people coming back with most of our technological advantage
It all comes down to a question of local optimisation. Will they profit (by their definition of profit, which will be short run), by attacking us. I don't think the Games changes that value judgement.
Look at the Storm Ymaryn sitting on the sidelines waiting for us to weaken enough so thet can conquer our western colonies. They clearly don't care about the Games.
The mere concept of there being such thing as endogenous innovation based on the structure or character of a society is pretty radical.
Too few of them to be meaningful or relevant on a societal scale. Travel is also far too dangerous to send their best. They're also just as or more likely to come away filled with envy or desire to take the riches of the Ymaryn for themselves rather than pledging friendship.
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