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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
Or rather the facilities to cook and produce lime helps with the next better road quality
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Sure, lime is great. Additionally, concrete is at least somewhat useful for making gutters to redirect water. But neither of these are miracles.
veekie said:
A dock is just the bit you linked.
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Which of the four bits I linked?
Cothons are a particular style of harbor & port.
Jetties can be docks, but are also seawalls and breakwaters;
Breakwaters are never docks unless you're desperate or in a kayak;
Seawalls are very rarely docks. Maybe for cruise ships. I guess if they're directly lining the harbor they'd work, but those are afaik called quays due to their differing function despite being materially indistinguishable.

While I can see how concrete would be useful for seawalls, making a smooth face for jetties, and creating pylons - i.e., how it would be useful for replacing fine stonework - it being the gate to the Harbor megaproject is, in my opinion, unrealistic. There are simply far too many harbors that don't use it. Concrete will make everything cheaper, but it's the labor needed to dredge the harbor, to build the breakwaters that stands in the way. Or at least should stand in the way, in my opinion.
 
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CeBrudras said:
Significant->Walls lvl1
Massive->Walls lvl2
Colossal->Walls lvl3 or Walls EX(tended project)
Walls upgraded with some value or Legacy (Like the Highlanders probably have)-> Walls Arcade Edition:p
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We're up to something a bit higher than that.
Initial Walls: Lvl 1
Current Standard Walls: Lvl 2
Significant Walls: Lvl 3
Massive Walls: Lvl 4
Colossal Walls: Lvl ??

I wonder if we can unlock a new wall type by double maining some walls...

Can anyone think of an appropriate target to try that on?
Umi-san said:
While I can see how concrete would be useful for seawalls, making a smooth face for jetties, and creating pylons - i.e., how it would be useful for replacing fine stonework - it being the gate to the Harbor megaproject is, in my opinion, unrealistic. There are simply far too many harbors that don't use it. Concrete will make everything cheaper, but it's the labor needed to dredge the harbor, to build the breakwaters that stands in the way. Or at least should stand in the way, in my opinion.
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*Jumping into the middle of this conversation.*

If this is true, the likely gateway is ironworks and docks in some number. I don't think we'd need a value for the idea of 'a bigger port'...
 
CeBrudras said:
Significant->Walls lvl1
Massive->Walls lvl2
Colossal->Walls lvl3 or Walls EX(tended project)
Walls upgraded with some value or Legacy (Like the Highlanders probably have)-> Walls Arcade Edition:p
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Actually...

Minor - Level 1. Every settlement has one of those since we upgraded our government way back then.

Then it increases from there.

Colossal Walls are probably nine significant walls, since our defense policy spent one on those. Though I am told it's really nine massive walls.
 
bluefur87 said:
We're up to something a bit higher than that.
Initial Walls: Lvl 1
Current Standard Walls: Lvl 2
Significant Walls: Lvl 3
Massive Walls: Lvl 4
Colossal Walls: Lvl ??

I wonder if we can unlock a new wall type by double maining some walls...

Can anyone think of an appropriate target to try that on?
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Colossal Wall enough cities and do a lot of cement to git gud at walling, I bet.
 
Kiba said:
We were in a governmental MP spam back then. It required us finishing the Law reform, which we had done in time for the Epic Age.

You could say it's the dawn of the classical era and the end of the Bronze Age.
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Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it happened before that too... or maybe afterwards.

Sigh, I really don't want to go back and check...
 
bluefur87 said:
If this is true, the likely gateway is ironworks and docks in some number. I don't think we'd need a value for the idea of 'a bigger port'...
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My stance is pretty much that we need cranes. I'll likely change it later.

I think a value is unnecessary to lead to the idea of a bigger port, but increased trade to increase the demand for a bigger harbor is. A trade value would help with that. Docks would do the opposite, by providing alternative outlets.

Aside:
For breakwalls, moles, seawalls & etc. to be more conceivable, salterns and docks.
Moles and seawalls are basically just columns of stone rubble piled up. The rubble has to get into place somehow, and cranes make it much more feasible.

Tbh, I don't think seawalls are something we're likely to invest in significantly, anywhere other than on a canal or a river port. Soft walls, e.g. kelp build-up, serve to protect against erosion about as well. Less compact, though.
 
Umi-san said:
My stance is pretty much that we need cranes. I'll likely change it later.

I think a value is unnecessary to lead to the idea of a bigger port, but increased trade to increase the demand for a bigger harbor is. A trade value would help with that. Docks would do the opposite, by providing alternative outlets.

Aside:
For breakwalls, moles, seawalls & etc. to be more conceivable, salterns and docks.
Moles and seawalls are basically just columns of stone rubble piled up. The rubble has to get into place somehow, and cranes make it much more feasible.

Tbh, I don't think seawalls are something we're likely to invest in significantly, anywhere other than on a canal or a river port. Soft walls, e.g. kelp build-up, serve to protect against erosion about as well. Less compact, though.
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Crane are a long way from us i think, Ancient Greece invented them on 6 century BCE.

EDIT: Typo
 
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bluefur87 said:
We're up to something a bit higher than that.
Initial Walls: Lvl 1
Current Standard Walls: Lvl 2
Significant Walls: Lvl 3
Massive Walls: Lvl 4
Colossal Walls: Lvl ??

I wonder if we can unlock a new wall type by double maining some walls...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What was the last time our old walls were actually relevant though? This new system doesnt need backwards compatibility, it would just be there to make talking about our current stuff easier.
 
Malevolo said:
Crane are a long way from us i think, Ancient Greece invented them on 6 BCE.
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a) Stop comparing everything to what happened irl. >.<
b) Was ancient Greece a specialist in megaprojects with a lack of slavery (and a significant population of urban poor)? Kinda no, ish.
c) Our math doth be kewl.
 
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Umi-san said:
a) Stop comparing everything to what happened irl. >.<
b) Was ancient Greece a specialist in megaprojects with a lack of slavery (and a significant population of urban poor)? Kinda no, ish.
c) Our math doth be kewl.
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Eh, it has been stated time and time again that we actually kind of have slaves under a different name in the half-exiles. Where we are really different from iron age civs is how we handle children, orphans, those different from society, and those with physical disabilities.

@Academia Nut how do our priests handle those naturally born blind, deaf, or mute? Are they taken into the priesthood, or treated as if they are no different from everybody else?
 
Marlin said:
This is something that has been confusing me. We have far less land, but we can't control all our periphery states. Worse, there are players that don't ever want to absorb all our periphery states. Yet, there are civs with far more land, but they don't seem to need the ridiculous amount of administrative reach we have. They can become incredibly huge, but no periphery state of theirs rises in rebellion for them to deal with.
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Well, firstly, we've also never had a periphery state actively rebel, secondly Admin strain is rarely visible from the outside, and thirdly there are other social tools to control that kind of setup, mostly relating to shared religion, family honor codes, and those negative Centralization governments we never discovered.
 
Marlin said:
Eh, it has been stated time and time again that we actually kind of have slaves under a different name in the half-exiles. Where we are really different from iron age civs is how we handle children, orphans, those different from society, and those with physical disabilities.
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We certainly don't have a slave caste now, much to our pocketbooks dismay.

Which was Umi's point, I believe. Not having slaves means our civ is going to be strongly incentivized to find cheaper and quicker methods of doing a lot of things.
 
Marlin said:
Eh, it has been stated time and time again that we actually kind of have slaves under a different name in the half-exiles. Where we are really different from iron age civs is how we handle children, orphans, those different from society, and those with physical disabilities.

@Academia Nut how do our priests handle those naturally born blind, deaf, or mute? Are they taken into the priesthood, or treated as if they are no different from everybody else?
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I prefer the term Unfree labor, for those who are kinda not slaves but kinda are slaves.

Also, remember that AN stated that the Artisan Games were possible because we did not have slaves and have a combination of traits permit that sort of things.
 
Sivantic said:
Everyone else has to deal with 1 progress per Secondary.
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Everyone else who hasn't picked up a legacy or relevent Trait has a base value of 1 per secondary, 2 if they've gotten a sufficient government upgrade.

I'd bet on the Highlanders having a trait that boosts their fortifications, though, and it's quite possible they've the government upgrade - we actually got it pretty late, as I recall, though we get the full upgrade all at once because we'd picked up all the secondary requirements before building the keystone Palace.

We can be pretty sure they've the Palace, and the Highlanders had a habit of stealing the other shit from us.

So I'd expect at least some massive walls.

How loyal those populations will be, behind those walls - less sure. But they're not likely to be happy with us if we end up starving out the Highlander garrisons.
 
Candesce said:
Everyone else who hasn't picked up a legacy or relevent Trait has a base value of 1 per secondary, 2 if they've gotten a sufficient government upgrade.

I'd bet on the Highlanders having a trait that boosts their fortifications, though, and it's quite possible they've the government upgrade - we actually got it pretty late, as I recall, though we get the full upgrade all at once because we'd picked up all the secondary requirements before building the keystone Palace.

We can be pretty sure they've the Palace, and the Highlanders had a habit of stealing the other shit from us.

So I'd expect at least some massive walls.

How loyal those populations will be, behind those walls - less sure. But they're not likely to be happy with us if we end up starving out the Highlander garrisons.
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The loyalty of the population is irrelevant. It's the loyalty of the garrison that maters since they are the ones that can realistically surrender (or get subverted).
 
Citino said:
We certainly don't have a slave caste now, much to our pocketbooks dismay.

Which was Umi's point, I believe. Not having slaves means our civ is going to be strongly incentivized to find cheaper and quicker methods of doing a lot of things.
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But are we smart enough?
You see, avoiding slavery doesn't get economical until you've got steam engines, and I have no idea how to rush for those.
I could tell you what actions to take to rush for gunpowder (a whole lot of surveys, charcoal, and black soil coupled with simultanious study alchemy, then a long period of repeated study alchemy's after discovering that sulfur and saltpeter exist and are alchemically interesting(though we might need distillation before saltpeter is possible)), but to figure out steam we'd just have to rely on getting a natural 100 during a golden age or something.(after understanding valves, pumps, and vacuums)
 
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Wow, just read this and apparently the corruption in the people slipped into the thread. So many chances to reduce patrician power were skipped :(

Still great read even if I don't understand half the decisions made.
 
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