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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
Ah yes...

That doesn't make me feel better about the situation.
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Well there is also the fact that Iron Age info transfer is utter shite, so it may be that they are not staying in their corners and are actually going out and talking to others who aren't us.
But that would be... incredibly weird since we produce a humongous amount of stuff and are rather prominent. I don't find it particularly likely outside of the Forhuch, which we know are doing trade stuff with the steppe tribes and haven't sent us a TM because Khans are Khans.


@Kiba, while our roads are no longer giving us Cent Tolerance, they are going to "bank" Centralization itself once we get past 50% road coverage. Which essentially means we can integrate provinces without losing any Cent, up until we run out the "bank".

Sup @Karugus long time no see! I'm pretty interested, in the event of war, with driving the Highlanders out of the Lowlands and consolidating that land under whatever remains of Txolla after/while we integrate some of Txolla in the north. We should also aim to grab the passes west and secure our south ways into the HK.

Beyond that though I don't think its honestly worth the effort. Taking their Core without Mass Levy would be horrifically painful if it is even possible, and then once we did there is essentially nothing we can do(there are one or two things we aren't willing to do which would fix it, but come with a slew of their own problems) to ensure that they don't become the most bitchy and rebellious vassals we've ever had. Their Xenophobia is to strong for that.

Its kinda like a Vampire trying to make a Thrall out of a Blessed Hunter. Its a right pain in the ass. I figure a better route to defusing them entirely is to bottle them up by taking the passes and Lowlands and then through diplomacy and intrigue slowly wear them down and open them up until we can just absorb them.

*scratches neck*
Really thinking about it, they are just kinda going to be a pain in the ass through sheer effort requirement any way we go about it.

Doing it with Mass Levy is much easier, but again runs into the issue of "They are a Terrible Vassal". As well as timings on when our forces can reach them.
 
I think that most people can agree that we are going to at the very least want the offensive policy active if we go to war with the HK. What I'm not sure about is how effective the mass levy policy will be at allowing us to overwhelm their forces.

I can imagine us managing to push through a few key passes, and maybe even sieging their capital city, but I don't think we'll be able to push through the mountains to their mediterranean holdings in a reasonable time frame. I doubt that a full vassalization is on the table.
 
BungieONI said:
Well there is also the fact that Iron Age info transfer is utter shite, so it may be that they are not staying in their corners and are actually going out and talking to others who aren't us.
But that would be... incredibly weird since we produce a humongous amount of stuff and are rather prominent. I don't find it particularly likely outside of the Forhuch, which we know are doing trade stuff with the steppe tribes and haven't sent us a TM because Khans are Khans.


@Kiba, while our roads are no longer giving us Cent Tolerance, they are going to "bank" Centralization itself once we get past 50% road coverage. Which essentially means we can integrate provinces without losing any Cent, up until we run out the "bank".

Sup @Karugus long time no see! I'm pretty interested, in the event of war, with driving the Highlanders out of the Lowlands and consolidating that land under whatever remains of Txolla after/while we integrate some of Txolla in the north. We should also aim to grab the passes west and secure our south ways into the HK.

Beyond that though I don't think its honestly worth the effort. Taking their Core without Mass Levy would be horrifically painful if it is even possible, and then once we did there is essentially nothing we can do(there are one or two things we aren't willing to do which would fix it, but come with a slew of their own problems) to ensure that they don't become the most bitchy and rebellious vassals we've ever had. Their Xenophobia is to strong for that.

Its kinda like a Vampire trying to make a Thrall out of a Blessed Hunter. Its a right pain in the ass. I figure a better route to defusing them entirely is to bottle them up by taking the passes and Lowlands and then through diplomacy and intrigue slowly wear them down and open them up until we can just absorb them.

*scratches neck*
Really thinking about it, they are just kinda going to be a pain in the ass through sheer effort requirement any way we go about it.

Doing it with Mass Levy is much easier, but again runs into the issue of "They are a Terrible Vassal". As well as timings on when our forces can reach them.
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Do we have confirmation that they're especially xenophobic? Order Above All might actually make them easier to administrate.
 
Rakuhn said:
I think that most people can agree that we are going to at the very least want the offensive policy active if we go to war with the HK. What I'm not sure about is how effective the mass levy policy will be at allowing us to overwhelm their forces.

I can imagine us managing to push through a few key passes, and maybe even sieging their capital city, but I don't think we'll be able to push through the mountains to their mediterranean holdings in a reasonable time frame. I doubt that a full vassalization is on the table.
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If we hit them hard enough, it seems almost certain that we won't have to hit their Mediterranean holdings, the expansionist ascending Great Power we're buds with will do that for us.
 
thatguy said:
Do we have confirmation that they're especially xenophobic? Order Above All might actually make them easier to administrate.
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Well we know their religion is pretty into the whole "One True God" thing in a much more aggressive way than our One God citizens. So that'd be a definite point of tension if we're not planning on converting our state religion.
 
Karugus said:
But can we really afford to let the HK go yet again? How many times have they pulled this shit? How many more times would it happen if we don't bring them to heel one way or another?

We're going to have to push them out of anything besides their hills as is- anything less is practically congratulating them. Is absorbing another province or two and dealing with the strain so much worse than simply letting them fuck with us yet again?
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Yes, we really can afford to let them go. Think about it, we've gone centuries since the last HK issue and worst case scenario we'll only be spending two turns at war with them. If we make them a vassal, we're not buying centuries of peace, we're buying centuries of increased admin issues, rebellions, and violent repression. Letting them go will cause us issues but it is by far the lesser evil.
 
Andres110 said:
Yes, we really can afford to let them go. Think about it, we've gone centuries since the last HK issue and worst case scenario we'll only be spending two turns at war with them. If we make them a vassal, we're not buying centuries of peace, we're buying centuries of increased admin issues, rebellions, and violent repression. Letting them go will cause us issues but it is by far the lesser evil.
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I want to walk away from this with at least some of their territory.
Lowland holdings, that pass, and maybe some of their northern hills as a buffer to prevent them from striking at the core.
Then we can situate a March in the conquered land, and pass some of the rest to the Txolla and our subordinates can be as oppressive as necessary without our involvement.
 
Rakuhn said:
I think that most people can agree that we are going to at the very least want the offensive policy active if we go to war with the HK. What I'm not sure about is how effective the mass levy policy will be at allowing us to overwhelm their forces.

I can imagine us managing to push through a few key passes, and maybe even sieging their capital city, but I don't think we'll be able to push through the mountains to their mediterranean holdings in a reasonable time frame. I doubt that a full vassalization is on the table.
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From what AN has said on the matter...

Academia Nut said:
1. Without Mass Levy if you get into a fight on their home territory it will be hard. Without all the Banner Companies, cracking their home territory will be impossible. As it is, while they can probably be kicked out of the lowlands with considerable effort if they start attacking the Harmurri, you will almost certainly need to go all in if you want to actually dig them out of their home territory
2. Away from their homes it will be of considerable use, but in their homes territory it will be far less useful
3. All three together can probably hold off any one of your significant neighbours. If the Forhuch, Storm People, and Freehills all decided all at once that they despised you, you would probably be overrun, unless you already had your levies up, in which case you might squeak out a stalemate and status quo ante bellum
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So fighting into their home without Mass Levy is possible. But it is hard, and presumably he is including us being on Offense while we do it. And to actually dig them out entirely would require Mass Levy.

In part this is probably caused by the cavalry issue, of actually fighting with those units in their hills.

And then the interesting part about how we can hold off three of our neighbors, potentially, if we have Mass Levy up already.

Thus I pretty much agree. Getting all the way through them and down into their far south holds is basically not happening in any remotely reasonable time frame.

thatguy said:
Do we have confirmation that they're especially xenophobic? Order Above All might actually make them easier to administrate.
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There is some I'm still looking for it... But this is something a little different and not really related which mentions that they may have serious religious issues with us being overlords of them, and thus influences their ease of administration.
Academia Nut said:
Their chief god is the One God, an elder king figure ala Zeus. The Black Eagle, if mentioned at all, is sort of a decoration along the lines of Odin's ravens. The Highlanders consider the People's opinion of Crow to not just be heathen worship but mildly blasphemous as it places a messenger figure above the divine form of Man.
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Does anyone know anything about the languages spoken in the region? I think it might be helpful to know say, how many languages are spoken in txolla.
 
thatguy said:
our subordinates can be as oppressive as necessary without our involvement.
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Dude, you are being way too callous. Remember, the thoughts of people in this thread are at least somewhat reflected in-game. When we took in refugees because of Econ rather than because of desire to be charitable, that had effects in the update. Don't try to game the system like this. If your motive is what drives our actions, the narrative effect is that our people will become greater assholes, just assholes who prefer not to get their own hands dirty.
 
Andres110 said:
Dude, you are being way too callous. Remember, the thoughts of people in this thread are at least somewhat reflected in-game. When we took in refugees because of Econ rather than because of desire to be charitable, that had effects in the update. Don't try to game the system like this. If your motive is what drives our actions, the narrative effect is that our people will become greater assholes, just assholes who prefer not to get their own hands dirty.
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Honestly most of my motivations are one flavor of pragmatism or another, that said a more optimistic take on my suggested course of action would be plopping down a Subordinate to influence the creation of a version of their culture we can coexist with.
I wasn't suggesting they be more oppressive than necessary, but people are kind of Aholes when working on a societal scale and there's no way to get around being oppressive here without Mysticism Hero characters.
 
Andres110 said:
Dude, you are being way too callous. Remember, the thoughts of people in this thread are at least somewhat reflected in-game. When we took in refugees because of Econ rather than because of desire to be charitable, that had effects in the update. Don't try to game the system like this. If your motive is what drives our actions, the narrative effect is that our people will become greater assholes, just assholes who prefer not to get their own hands dirty.
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...So? I think it's entirely fair for voters not to want the Ymaryn to be saintlike idealists despite living in the Iron Age. I mean, if that's your baggage, so be it, but I've been with this game since nearly the start and there IS more to the Ymaryn than hippy elves.

That said, territorial ambitions are problematic. If the Highlanders do push us too far, just burning their everything and letting them pick up the pieces is a viable option. They'd hate us, but they've hated us for millennia at this point.

#Phygrif Did Nothing Wrong
 
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Piren'e Colass said:
Does anyone know anything about the languages spoken in the region? I think it might be helpful to know say, how many languages are spoken in txolla.
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*blinks*

Well the Txolla are a confederation of river tribes from near where the Thunder Speakers were in the northern Lowlands. So they probably have a small handful of very similar dialects, being propped up and formed by our government. Being vassals of ours for a long time, they probably have some Ymaryn influences

Then of course you have the Ymaryn language, which is probably extremely prevalent as a trade language. It should share similarities with basically every other language on this list due to refugee intakes.

The HK should have their own language. Probably heavily related to what the Ymaryn speak.

The Harmurri likely speak some descendant of whatever the Xoh used to speak, being former vassals of them, and then whatever languages they developed on their own.

The Steppe tribes of Nomads will all pretty much have their own tongues and a smattering of trade tongues, some of them not from the region.

Whatever the Tin Tribes speak, there is probably a group of interrelated languages there.

What the Storm Ymaryn speak, which should be primarily Ymaryn but includes much Nomadic lexicon and Metal Worker, all being garishly mixed as they dissolve together.

The language of the Trelli, which probably still lives in Freehills.


Then what the Forhuch speak, some derivative of Nomad tongues.

And then finally what the Thunder Horse speak. Probably some what related to Ymaryn language now.


So somewhere in the realm of 25 to 30 different languages. And part of this, remember, is that Iron Age info transfer is shit so there is great difficulty in languages congealing together into a smaller number as happens in the modern time.
 
Umi-san said:
it won't help w/ road projects but damn if it might not make our baths cheaper
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Concrete does help with roads actually. Or rather the facilities to cook and produce lime helps with the next better road quality
Kiba said:
We are probably putting off roadbuilding projects until the government upgrade because we just found out that it won't have any impact on centralization tolerance.
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The whole point is that we need the roads even if they don't give more Cent tolerance...we don't need the Cent, we can use the tolerance, but its not the important part.
agumentic said:
That's just level 2, with new block housing they need another aqueduct and bath to keep being healthy. Passives probably will build them, if after Ironworks, but that's a progress they not spending on markets, which are what we want them to build.
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I figure the answer is probably to Reaction build the aqueduct first so they can't screw that up.
PrimalShadow said:


*We currently have NO way to get rid of Religious Authority, except taking the rare events that happen to reduce it. It would take next to nothing for our Priests to build a handful of level-one temples and bring our RA into the red, and there is just about nothing that we can do about it.
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Red RA is less a problem compared to the lowered Wealth caps really.
agumentic said:
Hm. If we can build libraries in academies, it actually works out pretty interestingly - we build a temple with RA gain, an academy to compensate for it and libraries in them to compensate for mysticism refund. Great for a good theology and philosophy.
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Higher level Temples unlock additional libraries. So do higher level cities

Think of it as the equivalent of the Bath and Aqueduct tax on block housing. Except cheaper on forests.
Umi-san said:
Yes, that is indeed an opinion held by some.


Ancient Harbors:
Cothon - Wikipedia
Relevant Article:
The Harbours of Carthage on JSTOR

Breakwaters, an Artificial Protective Surround:
Breakwater (structure) - Wikipedia

Jetties, which serve innumerable purposes.
Jetty - Wikipedia

Most of these use a negligible amount of concrete. Some forms of jetties use quite a bit of concrete, but even then the style using timber beams were and are more common. At least in modern times, however, such jetties tend to use steel-cored, concrete-wrapped pilings/pylons.

Historically, the use case that we would most likely prefer to use concrete for tended to use clay/rubble bases, according to wikipedia. That might have been a result of concrete being lost, however. And I don't know enough of roman harbors to say.
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Roman harbors made heavy use of concrete, especially their water resistant variant, which cut their maintenance demand as well. It was possible to build without concrete, but the difference between a Dock and a Harbor is that the harbor basically reshapes the sea area to make it conducive for ships. A dock is just the bit you linked.

So nobody's going to go to that effort without some values or a prior example.
BungieONI said:
Well there is also the fact that Iron Age info transfer is utter shite, so it may be that they are not staying in their corners and are actually going out and talking to others who aren't us.
But that would be... incredibly weird since we produce a humongous amount of stuff and are rather prominent. I don't find it particularly likely outside of the Forhuch, which we know are doing trade stuff with the steppe tribes and haven't sent us a TM because Khans are Khans.
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Already mentioned before. They don't NEED to talk to us specifically when we have the Games, which gives them passive rumor mill access from us.
Glassware said:
If we hit them hard enough, it seems almost certain that we won't have to hit their Mediterranean holdings, the expansionist ascending Great Power we're buds with will do that for us.
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On the other hand those holdings leaves us no longer hostage to Trell and makes the Canal possible again.
thatguy said:
I want to walk away from this with at least some of their territory.
Lowland holdings, that pass, and maybe some of their northern hills as a buffer to prevent them from striking at the core.
Then we can situate a March in the conquered land, and pass some of the rest to the Txolla and our subordinates can be as oppressive as necessary without our involvement.
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Lowland holdings ironically I don't care much about. It makes them less of a pain if they have a presence on the lowlands where they know they are exposed and xenophobic isolationism isn't physically possible

IMO, the priorities are:
-The pass next to Hatvalley.
-The formerly Khemetri Colony south of Gulvalley

Everything else wouldn't be a long term problem so much to let them keep..
 
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Kiba said:
We made the strategic mistake of not inviting the Highlanders to The Games all those years ago
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Okay, that was not a mistake with information we had at hand. We were going to conquer them next turn, which would be bad if they were Games participant, as we seen with Trelli. Meteor kinda messed up our plans there.
 
Karugus said:
But can we really afford to let the HK go yet again? How many times have they pulled this shit? How many more times would it happen if we don't bring them to heel one way or another?

We're going to have to push them out of anything besides their hills as is- anything less is practically congratulating them. Is absorbing another province or two and dealing with the strain so much worse than simply letting them fuck with us yet again?
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Clearly, that means we should elect the F nomad King to be our king.
Then proceed to fulfil fine tradition :D
 
agumentic said:
Okay, that was not a mistake with information we had at hand. We were going to conquer them next turn,
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please do not act like your position was the thread consensus, I was pushing the whole time to invite everyone we knew to make the Games an even bigger symbol of peace and international cooperation.
You know, like they're supposed to be.
 
veekie said:
Lowland holdings ironically I don't care much about. It makes them less of a pain if they have a presence on the lowlands where they know they are exposed and xenophobic isolationism isn't physically possible

IMO, the priorities are:
-The pass next to Hatvalley.
-The formerly Khemetri Colony south of Gulvalley
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We need to secure at least a portion of the lowlands. Currently, the Highland Kingdom's borders go right up to the Great River that cuts down the western side of the lowlands. We 100% want to secure both banks of the river for when we build the lowland canal. Having such a vital, major supply route be vulnerable to a chronic, backstabbing enemy is not an option.

Whenever we next face a crisis, the Highland Kingdom is going to stab us again. If they can turn that stab into disruptions along one of our major internal trade routes, that's going to cause a lot of problems. Imagine the crisis caused in Valleyhome, Lower Valleyhome and Valleyguard once food shipments start becoming disrupted. If those three cities become higher level cities (which is extremely likely) after gaining access to the lowland's bulk food, we will be in for a world of hurt. The Stab loss and urban panic rolls could likely do us a lot of harm, even if trade is only briefly disrupted, and that's likely to happen on the back of another crisis.

Personally, I want to seize all of the lowlands area they hold and then turn the area nestled into the fork of the Great River all the way up to the Core into a March so that the Highland Kingdom won't be able to stab us again. Txolla can have virtually everything else in the lowlands. Hopefully we'll be able to contain their crazy until they collapse or we get big enough that we can tank the hit caused by breaking out the bendy straw during the next major environmental disruption. Cutting them off from the lowlands would also make the Highland Kingdom more vulnerable to developing problems due to lack of room to expand or generate Econ. It might also force them to devolve to being a minor power over time.

Once the Highland Kingdom is finally done, we can propagate the March south to get closer to the Not!Indian ocean. While the Harmurri have dominated the area of the lowlands between the two rivers, I'm not sure that their reach extends into the hills along the edges.

As for taking the Khemetri's former colony on the Gul River, I only see that as a possibility after we finished the Gulvalley canal. The new colony would be too exposed if we didn't have the ability to ship bulk goods (and armies) to it. If the Khemetri come back, we won't be able to effective defend it before the canal is finished. If Free Hill starts to pick up Rule of Gold or emulate Trelli's need to maintain exclusive access to our trade Dominance, then they could sack the colony, too. Given the upcoming war with the Highland Kingdom and our pressing need to finish the Lowland canal as soon as the Dam is done, we may not have the opportunity to get the Khemetri's Gulvalley colony before someone else nabs it.
 
The best way to take care of the HK would be copious use of Intrigue missions.

One of, if not the first, users of intrigue or not, I doubt they have the entire economy we do to back it up. They probably do, however, have the values to constantly stamp it down.

Send an initial intrigue mission into their lands, see if we can't find a weakness to exploit, have this conversation again then.
 
DocMatoi said:
please do not act like your position was the thread consensus, I was pushing the whole time to invite everyone we knew to make the Games an even bigger symbol of peace and international cooperation.
You know, like they're supposed to be.
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While you may have been against it, a pretty overwhelming majority was going to. If not for meteor, we would've go to war, which illustrated nicely by the fact invitation lost.
 
agumentic said:
While you may have been against it, a pretty overwhelming majority was going to. If not for meteor, we would've go to war, which illustrated nicely by the fact invitation lost.
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@agumentic this is the tally from that vote. as you can see, half the thread wanted to invite the HK. 59/120, give or take. "Pretty overwhelming majority" my ass
Adhoc vote count started by DocMatoi on Nov 18, 2017 at 12:41 AM, finished with 802 posts and 126 votes.
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