Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
DocMatoi said:
what happened to 'everyone wanted to fight the HK thats why an overwhelming majority voted not to invite them'?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Some of those who wanted to fight HK voted to invite them anyway, that's what I meant. Still, actually checking back, I agree that majority wasn't as overwhelming as I remembered, if a majority nonetheless. Choosing to not invite HK with intention of conquering them later still wasn't a mistake and thread would've go for them, if not for a meteor.
 
Redium said:
We need to secure at least a portion of the lowlands. Currently, the Highland Kingdom's borders go right up to the Great River that cuts down the western side of the lowlands. We 100% want to secure both banks of the river for when we build the lowland canal. Having such a vital, major supply route be vulnerable to a chronic, backstabbing enemy is not an option.

Whenever we next face a crisis, the Highland Kingdom is going to stab us again. If they can turn that stab into disruptions along one of our major internal trade routes, that's going to cause a lot of problems. Imagine the crisis caused in Valleyhome, Lower Valleyhome and Valleyguard once food shipments start becoming disrupted. If those three cities become higher level cities (which is extremely likely) after gaining access to the lowland's bulk food, we will be in for a world of hurt. The Stab loss and urban panic rolls could likely do us a lot of harm, even if trade is only briefly disrupted, and that's likely to happen on the back of another crisis.

Personally, I want to seize all of the lowlands area they hold and then turn the area nestled into the fork of the Great River all the way up to the Core into a March so that the Highland Kingdom won't be able to stab us again. Txolla can have virtually everything else in the lowlands. Hopefully we'll be able to contain their crazy until they collapse or we get big enough that we can tank the hit caused by breaking out the bendy straw during the next major environmental disruption. Cutting them off from the lowlands would also make the Highland Kingdom more vulnerable to developing problems due to lack of room to expand or generate Econ. It might also force them to devolve to being a minor power over time.

Once the Highland Kingdom is finally done, we can propagate the March south to get closer to the Not!Indian ocean. While the Harmurri have dominated the area of the lowlands between the two rivers, I'm not sure that their reach extends into the hills along the edges.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Part of the whole thing of them not having any holdings not in the mountains is that they can't be threatened effectively. Even if you hold that bit of land it's indefensible vs their defensible hill holdings. So their holding that bit is GOOD, because theres somewhere we can stab them easily and the river makes a better defensive line for us. The passes in their backdoor and the river on their front are good places to hold.

...as for the lowland canal it's completely in the wrong direction to be affected. Only the Forhuch are likely to disrupt that.
As for taking the Khemetri's former colony on the Gul River, I only see that as a possibility after we finished the Gulvalley canal. The new colony would be too exposed if we didn't have the ability to ship bulk goods (and armies) to it. If the Khemetri come back, we won't be able to effective defend it before the canal is finished. If Free Hill starts to pick up Rule of Gold or emulate Trelli's need to maintain exclusive access to our trade Dominance, then they could sack the colony, too. Given the upcoming war with the Highland Kingdom and our pressing need to finish the Lowland canal as soon as the Dam is done, we may not have the opportunity to get the Khemetri's Gulvalley colony before someone else nabs it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wrong way round. We can't build the canal without taking the colony.
 
Can I not interest anyone in an intrigue mission to figure out what the HK are up to? Or even to figure out how intrigue missions work in general?

I don't expect to start a civil war or anything, but just getting a basic information web established among them would be huge.

Pwease?
 
bluefur87 said:
Can I not interest anyone in an intrigue mission to figure out what the HK are up to? Or even to figure out how intrigue missions work in general?

I don't expect to start a civil war or anything, but just getting a basic information web established among them would be huge.

Pwease?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm interested. I'll be straight up, I don't know if we can fit it in next turn, I'll need to actually see our stats and whatever decides to land on our plate. But, I agree completely that one of our few effective ways of dealings with the Highlanders is through intrigue. So, I am willing to try to fit it in.

The phrase "begin an intrigue event in the target location" almost sounds like it would run a sub phase that is super short and specialized. More than likely though it triggers a mid turn decision with the exact nature being determined by the quality of the roll and AN's whims.
 
I for one do not want to take the Highlands, but if we must take it for whatever reason there are ways around the headaches of integration, it's just that those means are... evil. Simply put we can use mass deportation to shatter their cultural identity, we have the administrative tools to handle it, the same we use to integrate refugees.
 
DragonParadox said:
I for one do not want to take the Highlands, but if we must take it for whatever reason there are ways around the headaches of integration, it's just that those means are... evil. Simply put we can use mass deportation to shatter their cultural identity, we have the administrative tools to handle it, the same we use to integrate refugees.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Though that approach comes with its own batch of issues which make me unsupportive of it... and its not even the worst thing we could do.
 
DragonParadox said:
I for one do not want to take the Highlands, but if we must take it for whatever reason there are ways around the headaches of integration, it's just that those means are... evil. Simply put we can use mass deportation to shatter their cultural identity, we have the administrative tools to handle it, the same we use to integrate refugees.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We could also just spam a shit ton of influence subordinates at once, which would effectively be cultural genocide as we basically settle a ton of Ymaryn in the area while displacing and isolating the locals, teaching their children in the ways of the Ymaryn, until after a few turns the People of the Highland Kingdom basically don't exist anymore.

It would be stupidly expensive, and one could argue pretty evil as well.
But we could do it.
 
Raichu1972 said:
It would be stupidly expensive, and one could argue pretty evil as well.
But we could do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Academia Nut said:
Influence Subordinate - By transferring specialists and teachers to subordinates they can be nudged into behaving more to the liking of the core provinces
*S: -2 Diplo, Transfer 2 Econ, Wealth, Culture, Tech, and Mysticism; influences subordinate culture
*M: -3 Diplo, Transfer 3 Econ, Wealth, Culture, Tech, and Mysticism; significantly influences subordinate culture, +1 Loyalty
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
hmm
@Academia Nut shouldn't the wealth cost be double for influence subordinate?
 
Raichu1972 said:
We could also just spam a shit ton of influence subordinates at once, which would effectively be cultural genocide as we basically settle a ton of Ymaryn in the area while displacing and isolating the locals, teaching their children in the ways of the Ymaryn, until after a few turns the People of the Highland Kingdom basically don't exist anymore.

It would be stupidly expensive, and one could argue pretty evil as well.
But we could do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

True, but that is not so much getting around the troubles of integration but straight through them.
 
I have to admit I'm a little confused about the location of the dam and proposed canal. I thought we were building them to bypass the cateracts around the headwaters the western river, the one that passes through the core, so that river becomes navigable from the core down into the Lowlands. That's the same river that the Highland Kingdom controls at least the west bank of.

Glassware said:
What happens when the Khemetri come back with a Reclamation CB? I don't want to get into another Great Power War and the canal is hardly worth that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't think they need cassus belli, so if they attack they're likely to attack anyway. They don't have a stewards value as far as we know, so lack the cultural drive that makes recapturing lost subordinates an imperative.
 
Last edited:
Alratan said:
I have to admit I'm a little confused about the location of the dam and proposed canal. I thought we were building them to bypass the cateracts around the headwaters the western river, the one that passes through the core, so that river becomes navigable from the core down into the Lowlands. That's the same river that the Highland Kingdom controls at least the west bank of.



I don't think they need cassus belli, so if they attack they're likely to attack anyway. They don't have a stewards value as far as we know, so lack the cultural drive that makes recapturing lost subordinates an imperative.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They have an even worse, in some ways, value which forces them to think of themselves as Divine rulers of everything which is a lot of the internal reason for the first Great War and why it was difficult for them to retreat without a Genius Diplo. You can see hints of it in the text of Reshem in the last parts of Epic Age.
 
Glassware said:
What happens when the Khemetri come back with a Reclamation CB? I don't want to get into another Great Power War and the canal is hardly worth that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's been more than 3 full turns since they lost contact and they've been conquered by xenophobe isolationists.
So Reclamation is likely busted. The reclaimation CBs and Revenge CBs we know of only last 3 turns before it becomes history or myth.
SpeckofStardust said:
hmm
@Academia Nut shouldn't the wealth cost be double for influence subordinate?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We checked. Wealth costs are doubled for production, development and purchase.

External costs are not doubled. So Influences, Salt gifts and Trade missions don't change
Alratan said:
I have to admit I'm a little confused about the location of the dam and proposed canal. I thought we were building them to bypass the cateracts around the headwaters the western river, the one that passes through the core, so that river becomes navigable from the core down into the Lowlands. That's the same river that the Highland Kingdom controls at least the west bank of.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wrong way round. We're building the dam at the cataracts, then extending the canal eastwards, which would incidentally turn all the shitty dry badlands of Txolla into prime agricultural land and give us a river route to the eastern river.
 
veekie said:
Wrong way round. We're building the dam at the cataracts, then extending the canal eastwards, which would incidentally turn all the shitty dry badlands of Txolla into prime agricultural land and give us a river route to the eastern river.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That doesn't seem to be what's being said here:

Academia Nut said:
"We need a canal to traverse the Great River Cataracts to promote further trade," the Admin Chief said, bringing forth the intentions of the king to the Chamber of the Survey in the Royal Archives.

Not even needing to look at the surveys, the clerk there said, "There are a number of spots in the badlands that could be redone into a series of short canals and pools if there was a stable reservoir above them. Because of seepage at that volume of water, if you want to divert enough water you're going to have to anchor on stone, which means building in the cataracts, which means damming the entire Great River."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It says we'll be following up the dam with a set of small canals to bypass the cataracts on the western river, not a canal to link the eastern and western rivers. We're basically canalising the Great River to make it naviagable from higher up in its course by the sound of te request.

I think the upper reaches of the Great River outside the core are in the badlands, from the description we saw of the lands beyond the Ymaryn's borders to the south east we saw from a refugee's journey.
 
Last edited:
Alratan said:
That doesn't seem to be what's being said here:



It says we'll be following up the dam with a set of small canals to bypass the cataracts on the western river, not a canal to link the eastern and western rivers. We're basically canalising the Great River to make it naviagable from higher up in its course by the sound of te request.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Link the east and western rivers...? Um. No.

That is not at all what the canal does. The canal literally extends eastwards into the Lowlands like a second river(in every discussion made by people which inspired this) before terminating somewere, and there are some navigational aids at the top in a series of locks like what that describes.
 
BungieONI said:
That is not at all what the canal does. The canal literally extends eastwards into the Lowlands like a second river(in every discussion made by people which inspired this) before terminating somewere, and there are some navigational aids at the top in a series of locks like what that describes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Huh, what? I don't think it extends anywhere. It's a canal to make Great River more navigable, like the Sacred Canal, no?
 
Last edited:
BungieONI said:
Link the east and western rivers...? Um. No.

That is not at all what the canal does. The canal literally extends eastwards into the Lowlands like a second river(in every discussion made by people which inspired this) before terminating somewere, and there are some navigational aids at the top in a series of locks like what that describes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Hmm, if it extends eastward and then terminate, we might be able to build a canal from the eastern river and connect it.
 
I forgot to mention this before, but I really like how AN incorporated the thread's Damned Dam meme.

"So, you think you have what it takes to become Chief Surveyor?"
"Yes, sir, it has been my dream since childhood."
"Alright then. Draw me a dam."
"..."
 
agumentic said:
Huh, what? I don't think it extends anywhere. It's a canal to make Great river more navigable, like the Sacred Canal, no?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Every discussion I have had with people about it, every speculation, all of it has given me that impression that it will extend east for a good ways.

Personally though I couldn't really give a fig, so long as it lets us water the Lowlands some and transport material much more easily.
 
Alratan said:
That doesn't seem to be what's being said here:



It says we'll be following up the dam with a set of small canals to bypass the cataracts on the western river, not a canal to link the eastern and western rivers. We're basically canalising the Great River to make it naviagable from higher up in its course by the sound of te request.

I think the upper reaches of the Great River outside the core are in the badlands, from the description we saw of the lands beyond the Ymaryn's borders to the south east we saw from a refugee's journey.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The whole basis of building it is that it'd be difficult to get bulk goods to and from Forhuch.
The canal you describe does nothing about that.

So first, a look at the dam:
-It's situated in the cataracts themselves made by damming some of the more problematic canyons and using one of the previously flash flood prone canyons for a watermill spillway.
-It makes the Cataracts inherently navigable. The problem was the white water, which is now going to be gone as a problem, and the flash floods that the canyons were prone to, which would also be gone.

From here you can consider:
-A canal to route due south makes no sense. It irrigates nothing, and you can replicate the same effect by either sailing through the spillway or using waterlocks to raise/lower ships via pumping. You don't need a dam to build this.
-A canal to route east would ease shipping goods to Forhuch, irrigate the dry, steppe like northern portion of Txolla and provide ease of shipping from lowlands and Redhill to Valleyhome. You would need a dam to build this, because otherwise you can't get the water there.
 
BungieONI said:
Every discussion I have had with people about it, every speculation, all of it has given me that impression that it will extend east for a good ways.

Personally though I couldn't really give a fig, so long as it lets us water the Lowlands some and transport material much more easily.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, why would it randomly extend eastwards? Just for irrigation purposes? To connect rivers there we would need to dig through entire Lowlands, like five times more than for Triangle Canal. More than that, from the description, it's more of series of a small canals between cataracts and natural reservoirs rather than one big canal.
 
Last edited:
agumentic said:
I mean, why would it randomly extend eastwards? Just for irrigation purposes? To connect rivers there we would need to dig through entire Lowlands, like five times more than for Triangle Canal. More than that, from the description, it's more of series of a small canals between cataracts and natural reservoirs rather than one big canal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The canal is supposed to make it easy for us to supply Xohyr if we had it done before the Horseman's Plague.

Either Xohyr is closer to the Great River than we think or that it really does extend eastward.
 
Oh, so that's why so many people think the canal after the dam will be a megaproject.

Will be interesting to see where that goes.
BungieONI said:
I'm interested. I'll be straight up, I don't know if we can fit it in next turn, I'll need to actually see our stats and whatever decides to land on our plate. But, I agree completely that one of our few effective ways of dealings with the Highlanders is through intrigue. So, I am willing to try to fit it in.

The phrase "begin an intrigue event in the target location" almost sounds like it would run a sub phase that is super short and specialized. More than likely though it triggers a mid turn decision with the exact nature being determined by the quality of the roll and AN's whims.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think it actually is something like a sub phase. The same way that war missions are phases rather than turns or half turns.

Also, since not enough people are talking about intrigue for my preference! People should think of it this way. Our goal here is to put a point of intrigue into the HK so that we can form a rumor mill there.

Are they moving troops towards the border? We will know then. Do they have someone trying to reform the HK into playing friendly with other people? We will know then. Do they have some secret that they think will help them win against us? We will know then.

Honestly, if this works out like I'm hoping, I'd like to see about getting this set up so we can get a proto-rumor mill set up in the Storm Ymaryn and northern Nomads too (not sure if that later one will work...)

Knowing what our less friendly and more militaristic neighbors are up to is just a good thing.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top