It would make it possible to sail from Valleyhome down to Harmurri, where traders can move their boats to Tocholli and sail upstream. To do what you're proposing, the canal needs to be gigantic, unless there's a series of lakes really close to each other through most of the northern Lowlands.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
There's certainly rivers that aren't on the map.
Yep. Shitloads of them. We formed the Stone Age Canal out of those.
The thing is, you don't need a large reservoir to back a canal's flow in any direction other than east or southeast. And it had been noted that initially Txolla was good soil but too dry. A canal helps a lot.
I can't exactly discuss anything about Schrödinger's rivers that may or may not be here or there. But if northern Txolla would be so full of them, it wouldn't need irrigation.
Why wouldn't we need a reservoir to fill the canals and pools that go around the cataracts?
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I recalled it as WoAN, but so far I hadn't nailed down a quote by him.
The reason I asked was because I searched for everything he's said about canals and dams in the thread and couldn't see anything that specified this.
I am opposed.
First, our Intrigue score isn't in the right place to be doing missions at all. Judging by other stats, it is reasonably likely that the effectiveness of any intrigue action depends on an intrigue score - and our current intrigue is rather flimsy. And taking a Mission actually compounds the problem, because it makes our Intrigue score lower.
Second, the Highlanders are a terrible target for our first Intrigue mission. If we want to send an intrigue mission against someone, can we NOT send it against the nation that practically invented Intrigue?
Because going around the cataracts would be flowing in the direction of gravity, its where the water already wants to go. You only need a reservoir to 'back' a canal flow if you want to go uphill or down a long distance with few or no inlets
Oh hell yes. Though I'd argue that we'd have a shot if our Intrigue is at least two digits, right now it's just plain suicide. We've our hands full just DEFENDING.
Infiltrating a xenophobic theocracy is hard.
These are the closest things to WoG I could fimd on the issue of whether the canal would go around the cataracts or if it would go into the lowland heartlands.
That's not the only reason you'd need a dam. You need a reservoir to regulate the flow downhill if you have naturally strongly seasonal flow rates. Otherwise the water level goes up and down too much. That's a particular problem if you canalise a river, as by straightening its path and removing the cataracts and pools between them you make it drain much faster. You use the dam to retain water in the rainy season and then release it in the dry.
You probably also need locks, and a lot of reservoirs to refill the locks as you descend or ascend given the elevation difference between Valleyhome and the Lowlands.
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But that was explained in the update, no? There's too much seepage, the river becomes too shallow without Dam reservoir backing up the flow.
Or, maybe the stat that can't be overflowed into, is a more focused form of another stat, and costs said stat to build, is like the other stats we have seen in this area.
You know, the ones that matter at numbers as low as 4 or 5 at the moment?
If only they had recently gone through a major religious upheaval, rewriting vast parts of their society, and then attacked every single one of their neighbors they could and then proceeded to completely oppress any sign of rebellion among said neighbors.
If something like that happened, then the complete and utter turmoil caused by such an unfortunate chain of events would make infiltrating them so much easier! We can't be that fortunate however.
I mean, the only way it could be better if one of those neighbors bordered us, knew us for being genuinely chill, and had terrain that we were both intimately familiar with and many paths of travel that would require a significant border guard to cover completely.
Well, even if all of that was true, it would probably still be better if we had some sort of stealth specialist with centuries, preferably millennia of experience that could safely travel throughout the area.
Unfortunately not a single one of these things is true!
Oh, wait.
You want to avoid war with the Highlanders? Start by setting up a rumor mill to figure out when we can pressure them to become more open minded.
You want to prepare for the inevitable war with the Highlanders? Start by setting up a rumor mill to figure out what they're up to and their troop movements.
You want to get better at infiltrating foreign polities? Actually start infiltrating foreign polities, preferably ones that are close and that you aren't worried too much about pissing off if you get caught.
This isn't some sound and safe strategic plan. This is the player in a strategy game refusing to scout their enemy and thus able to get caught with their pants completely down. This isn't a super risk adverse strategy. This is a handful of stats that are inconsequential in the end compared to what they would gain if they succeeded, and will only be slightly missed if they fail.
To be so completely and utterly adverse to trying to practice and leverage a tool as strong as intrigue is to completely and totally invite all surprises and disasters that could befall us when we could have seen them coming a mile away.
Trying is not the height of arrogance. Not trying when the costs are so low and their attitude towards us pretty much already determined is the height of arrogance. We have barely anything to lose, and the ability to avert or dominate an upcoming war to gain.
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- Location
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Thing is, they are still inventors of Intrigue in the region.You shouldn't attack opponent like this on their home field half-assed. A 10 or so turns of intrigue buildup is needed.
Domestic Intrigue Web action would be nice to take too, but when and how....
Look, they aren't really the inventors of intrigue. That sort of spontaneously happened to varying degrees throughout the region. They were just the first to unlock the stat. And it took a dedicated hero to do it as far as we can tell.
We and the Harm were the first to make scouts, which is a part of intrigue. We were one of the first groups that had a communications network, we just didn't get that person voted in as king. We were and continue to be one of the groups that leverages diplomacy, the stat intrigue is born from, the most in our area.
Us unlocking the wealth stat before the Trelli and Dead Priests did not make us better than either one of them at leveraging it. They both had markets way, waaay before us as far as we can figure.
And even if they are the best intrigue specialists in the area by virtue of unlocking it? We need to confirm just how wide that gap is. Because if it is strong enough then we need to step up our own internal intrigue network by a significant amount. And again, this action is relatively cheap, and we I at least hope we aren't going to try and do something major like try and start a revolt. I just want a rumor mill from the area. That alone would pay dividends and the cost would be low enough that we could afford to do it. It's also the perfect time to do it, while they're distracted try to put down other internal fires from conquering the land and going around building things as fast as possible.
Scouts are meant to be used to figure out what the enemy is doing, them failing is an acceptable risk because even the smallest amount of information being brought back could be major. We have someone that has effectively declared us their enemy and is building up an absurd amount of defenses in preparation for a war. We should at least make a token effort to get a rumor mill going. Especially when one of our biggest strengths is out maneuvering them on the field.
The Highland Kingdom has based their entire society around repressing their people and resisting Ymaryn influence. They have had centuries to build up their intrigue networks (and significant experience in leveraging said networks). I wouldn't be surprised if our first few missions there would either end up with all of our agents either dead or turned.
If your goal is to get experience with intrigue networks, you should be trying to infiltrate the SY. Their cosmopolitan acceptance trait should make infiltration much easier.
If your goal is to get experience with intrigue networks, you should be trying to infiltrate the SY. Their cosmopolitan acceptance trait should make infiltration much easier.
It is barely a jump in logic to take our Blackbirds and start using them as actual ninjas.
They didn't resist us by being intrigue specialists, they did it by shutting down all trade and becoming isolationists.
Intrigue also favors the offense. A defender needs to cover their entire area in order to catch spies. The offense just needs to find the hole and sneak in.
If you are so terrified of them that you refuse to even attempt an intrigue mission out of some belief that it would fail so spectacularly, and believe it to such a degree that it is a forgone conclusion, then you must, and I mean must expand our own intrigue network manually in addition to through passives once a turn. Keep in mind that passives can trigger symphony, so we're actually likely to have that trigger as a result of expanding intrigue on both directions. (again, we don't know how exactly, but it was said to be a possibility when I asked about art).
If the Highlanders are such bosses at intrigue that we can't even attempt to fight them in it, when they are openly hostile to us, then we are on a time bomb, because they should be able to start assassination missions or to start bribing our patricians or vassals to work for them.
This is not something you can just toss to the side and say 'eh, we can still beat them in a fight,' intrigue is a huge deal.
Why would they let them in?
Because they accepted our diplomatic mission instead of attacking us.
I think you are under a misapprehension about what I mean when I say that the Highland Kingdom's entire build revolves around repression and resisting Ymaryn influence. It isn't as simple as just shutting off contact and raising their intrigue score. It includes their values, their infrastructure, their religion, and their government. All of which should are likely built around raising their defensive capabilities.
I agree that the Highland Kingdom is a ticking time bomb. It is why I heavily pushed for a punitive war after the great war, and why I pushed for having a passive intrigue policy. It is why I'll push to weaken them as much as possible in the peace settlement of the coming war.
I agree that more intrigue is essential if we want to protect ourselves against the Highlanders. An occasional expand intrigue network action would not be amiss. I absolutely refuse to back an offensive intrigue mission against them though.
If we want to develop the full potential of the Lowlands, we're going to need to hold both of the major rivers that water it. Holding the territory of the Highland Kingdom would also mean that we're much more secure from attacks from the west, meaning we have to sorry less about fortifying or being pincered.
In exchange, we'd introduce a nasty source of internal disruption that'd do damage to most of our valuable traits.
And as it happens, we've historically been a lot more likely to break from internal problems than external enemies.
Conquering HK right now would probably be too much - even after braving the walls, we'd still need to deal with population with xenophobic religion. Before we could just devastate their high classes, but that changed the equation. Pushing them to the passes and from the lowlands, on the other hand, should be much easier, still destroys them as a military threat and would not cause as much problems with the population. Still, we shouldn't start this war - let HK or maybe Hamurri do it, then join, fully or just Banners, depending on situation,