Paths of Civilization

Rakuhn · Nov 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
Trelli had a shit ton of money tho
And basically had to keep half of their mercs constantly farming cash through slave raids and such to keep their income up.

We want to treat them as elite military units, not just bodies to throw around.

I would say we should have five companies max, and only if we have a huuuuuhe excess in wealth.

We should also only create companies through double main raise army from now on.
Just to get that professional army vibe going strong.

A full lvl 1 free city produces -1 econ, +1 culture, +1 wealth. A full lvl 2 free city (like Redshore) produces -2 econ, +2 culture, +3 wealth. I definitely don't want more mercenaries than free cities with marketplaces (not free city levels, free cities period), but I'm not convinced that once we get the marketplaces built that we are going to have to worry about mercenary pay. Obviously getting to 5 mercenary companies isn't an immediate priority, but I'd like to get there before the colossal walls are finished (8 turns).

ctulhuslp said:
That's the problem: market comes and goes, so any excess is going to be temporary.

Wait, really? I know that we've lost the marketplace bonus from Valleyhome when it was no longer a true city, but have we ever seen a free city pop?

edit:
Ninja'd

DakkaMania · Nov 7, 2017

I expect Troubles to be something like the riots in Constantinople that nearly unseated Justinian.

That and similar things. Panem apparently reduces troubles. So to turn it around, falling living standards for the Urban Poor increase the chance of troubles.

ctulhuslp · Nov 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
You mean the market extended project?

That's basically permenant so long as we have them in Free Cities.

If we complete the Urban Poor quest, and the Grand Bazzar acts as some have speculated (internal trading) then we should have at least enough wealth at all times to pay for all all our merc companies

Unless we have another civilization ending plague, at which point most standard situations and options don't really matter.

I'm not saying to immediately jump to five companies, though it will likely give us a legacy, I'm saying that should be our max for the forseeeable future.

No, I mean international market.
Or internal, for that matter.
Like, such plagues are going to happen time to time, we must plan for them - in fact, I'd go as far as argue that surviving them is more important than having biggest Martial Dick in neighbourhood.

Rakuhn said:
Wait, really? I know that we've lost the marketplace bonus from Valleyhome when it was no longer a true city, but have we ever seen a free city pop?

No, I mean "market" as in "trade in general". There will be quarantines and raids and periods of heightened banditry because {reasons} paralyzing or disrupting trade.

And such periods tend to be the ones we are weakest at, so adding one more weakness - fuckton of armed men who are used to getting money for the business of war - is not really the best idea.

Raichu1972 · Nov 7, 2017

DakkaMania said:
I expect Troubles to be something like the riots in Constantinople that nearly unseated Justinian.

That and similar things. Panem apparently reduces troubles. So to turn it around, falling living standards for the Urban Poor increase the chance of troubles.

I imagine that with the Ymaryn setup focused on community health, we are less likely to get a quick buildup of trouble because of how much effort we put into making people actually want to live in cities.

It also makes them a huge resource sink, but I say that that's a decent trade off.

I imagine that if we had ignored the need for level 2 baths in Redshore, we would have had an increase in Trouble there.

Raichu1972 · Nov 7, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
No, I mean international market.
Or internal, for that matter.
Like, such plagues are going to happen time to time, we must plan for them - in fact, I'd go as far as argue that surviving them is more important than having biggest Martial Dick in neighbourhood.

No, I mean "market" as in "trade in general". There will be quarantines and raids and periods of heightened banditry because {reasons} paralyzing or disrupting trade.

And such periods tend to be the ones we are weakest at, so adding one more weakness - fuckton of armed men who are used to getting money for the business of war - is not really the best idea.

I agree that surviving plagues is super important, but I also think having more easily deployable martial is also important.

As an example, we have survived the Horsemans Plague, but without our merc companies to hold the line and spread the plague to the Nomads, they would have slaughtered their way throughout the Lowlands and pushed into the Core.

I'm not saying every plague will involve a Nomad invasion, but keeping a standing martial score is really important.

DakkaMania · Nov 7, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
No, I mean "market" as in "trade in general". There will be quarantines and raids and periods of heightened banditry because {reasons} paralyzing or disrupting trade.

And such periods tend to be the ones we are weakest at, so adding one more weakness - fuckton of armed men who are used to getting money for the business of war - is not really the best idea.

OTOH, we want a healthy mix of troops.

General Martial is great. Until they wander off on their own initiative.

Yeomen are great. Until we are low on Econ (and/or they wander off as well)

Cavalry and Warships I expect to cause us issues as well at some point.

Mercenaries are nice in the regard that if the Patricians/Yeomen get uppity (and we happen to still have money) we can force them into compliance. Although if we fuck up that badly we have different problems.

But ultimately, geography dooms us to be a highly militarized society. The Steppes alone demand it. And until we get some really defensible borders*, we have to compensate with a fuckload of troops.

*The mountain horse territory AFAIK borders mountains, the former Thunder Speakers only have the Spirit Channel which can be fortified. But the south has the Harmurri (which isn't that bad compared to nomads) and the HK would have made a beautiful south-western border.

ctulhuslp · Nov 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
I agree that surviving plagues is super important, but I also think having more easily deployable martial is also important.

As an example, we have survived the Horsemans Plague, but without our merc companies to hold the line and spread the plague to the Nomads, they would have slaughtered their way throughout the Lowlands and pushed into the Core.

I'm not saying every plague will involve a Nomad invasion, but keeping a standing martial score is really important.

Yes, but not 6 companies. That's, like...30? 50? military.
Having more mercenaries than our "regular" Mil cap is unwise IMO: means that mercs can, in theory, squish our normal army if they want to. And knowing that they can is by itself going to be too tempting.

...which means that our current number of mercenary companies is quite big already.

DakkaMania said:
OTOH, we want a healthy mix of troops.

General Martial is great. Until they wander off on their own initiative.

Yeomen are great. Until we are low on Econ (and/or they wander off as well)

Cavalry and Warships I expect to cause us issues as well at some point.

Mercenaries are nice in the regard that if the Patricians/Yeomen get uppity (and we happen to still have money) we can force them into compliance. Although if we fuck up that badly we have different problems.

But ultimately, geography dooms us to be a highly militarized society. The Steppes alone demand it. And until we get some really defensible borders*, we have to compensate with a fuckload of troops.

*The mountain horse territory AFAIK borders mountains, the former Thunder Speakers only have the Spirit Channel which can be fortified. But the south has the Harmurri (which isn't that bad compared to nomads) and the HK would have made a beautiful south-western border.

True, but, like, overreliance on them is a weakness too.
@Academia Nut , have mercenary company commanders tried using their control over salaries (I presume they have it) to instill personal loyalty in troops?

Citino · Nov 7, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Having more mercenaries than our "regular" Mil cap is unwise IMO: means that mercs can, in theory, squish our normal army if they want to. And knowing that they can is by itself going to be too tempting.

Well, we do have the 50+ Martial from levies, and possible the extra martial from our yeomen Econ as well, in combination with our regular army, so the mercs would need way more than 30 Martial to beat our kingdom, unless they got lucky.

Raichu1972 · Nov 7, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Yes, but not 6 companies. That's, like...30? 50? military.
Having more mercenaries than our "regular" Mil cap is unwise IMO: means that mercs can, in theory, squish our normal army if they want to. And knowing that they can is by itself going to be too tempting.

...which means that our current number of mercenary companies is quite big already.

True, but, like, overreliance on them is a weakness too.
@Academia Nut , have mercenary company commanders tried using their control over salaries (I presume they have it) to instill personal loyalty in troops?

Five merc companies would be between ;9 and 50 martial worth of troops.

The only way they would all revolt at once would be if we couldn't pay for all of them and they might even give us a turn to pay them if they are all at max loyalty.

We can pull up over 50 martial using mass levy, even when we have basically no domestic martial.

We can still bring up more martial than the companies combined, so in the unlikely chance of them all revolting at once we would be able to put them down.

I would also say that we don't have an over reliance. We use them companies as quick response units and massed martial to use as a rally for our other units. They are an elite core that can crush numerically superior foes, and when used with the rest of the army become a powerful force.

But they are not invincible, and we can beat them if they ever try to revolt from their current prestigious positions for some reason.

BungieONI · Nov 7, 2017

@DakkaMania & @Raichu1972 I basically agree with @ctulhuslp's point of caution though I might be coming at it from a different direction.

I'm pretty happy with the number of mercs we have at the moment because we can sustain them even if our wealth income is shite by absorbing them into our main martial if we are low in base martial. As shown by Horseman's Plague. Getting more would make that very very tricky to do if needed.

Beyond that the though my main desire is to maintain sustainability, in the sense of civ longevity which by its nature requires military forces, whilst minimizing the problems we generate trying to fix other ones.

George · Nov 7, 2017

Yeah I can't get behind going to 5 Mercenary Companies any time soon. We should support & expand our Holy Orders first in my opinion. We can also build roads, watchtowers, and walls to enhance the effectiveness of our military.

Now, if people want more Mercenaries enough to build Salterns to pay their cost, then that would be possible, though expensive.

Raichu1972 · Nov 7, 2017

BungieONI said:
@DakkaMania & @Raichu1972 I basically agree with @ctulhuslp's point of caution though I might be coming at it from a different direction.

I'm pretty happy with the number of mercs we have at the moment because we can sustain them even if our wealth income is shite by absorbing them into our main martial if we are low in base martial. As shown by Horseman's Plague. Getting more would make that very very tricky to do if needed.

Beyond that the though my main desire is to maintain sustainability, in the sense of civ longevity which by its nature requires military forces, whilst minimizing the problems we generate trying to fix other ones.

As I keep saying, getting more companies is something to think about in the future.
Perhaps once we have integrated some lf the Lowlands, or when we finally take some gymnasiums and increase our safe martial cap.

I just don't agree with the sentiment that Cthulhulp has that merc companies are inherently bad and having them will lead to inevitable problems.

Our mercs have always been loyal, even when we constantly throw them into the grinder over and over.

BungieONI · Nov 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
I just don't agree with the sentiment that Cthulhulp has that merc companies are inherently bad and having them will lead to inevitable problems.

Oh, well.

I don't think that's his point at all.

It's not mine, for sure. Them being inherently bad just sounds silly, they just are, like a lot of things in this game.

George · Nov 7, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
As I keep saying, getting more companies is something to think about in the future.
Perhaps once we have integrated some lf the Lowlands, or when we finally take some gymnasiums and increase our safe martial cap.

I just don't agree with the sentiment that Cthulhulp has that merc companies are inherently bad and having them will lead to inevitable problems.

Our mercs have always been loyal, even when we constantly throw them into the grinder over and over.

One thing to watch here is how long it takes the Blood Rain Banner Company to build back up, and how long it takes our two 3 Loyalty companies to tick up to 4 Loyalty. If they're sluggish about that, then a fourth Mercenary Company could be wise for military readiness, even if we have to build Salterns to pay for it (Salterns because they don't shut off due to disease or high EE, and so actually account for the cost even in a crisis)

Rakuhn · Nov 7, 2017

Heavens Hawk+Amber Road+Western Wall+Greenshore+Tinshore+Txolla+Thunder Horse+New March >= 64 martial cap (what they'd have if they each only had one province). I think that everyone can agree that we are currently overextended on that front.

39 (max temp martial, currently ~14) + 24 (mercenaries) = 63 martial cap.

We are going to need some combination of a fourth mercenary company, unlocking 10 strength mercenaries, gaining several provinces through integration (it is unlikely that we'll fully integrate any of our subordinates in the near future), more governor's palaces, and more gymnasiums.

George · Nov 7, 2017

Rakuhn said:
Heavens Hawk+Amber Road+Western Wall+Greenshore+Tinshore+Txolla+Thunder Horse+New March >= 64 martial cap (what they'd have if they each only had one province). I think that everyone can agree that we are currently overextended on that front.

39 (max temp martial, currently ~14) + 24 (mercenaries) = 63 martial cap.

We are going to need some combination of a fourth mercenary company, unlocking 10 strength mercenaries, gaining several provinces through integration (it is unlikely that we'll fully integrate any of our subordinates in the near future), more governor's palaces, and more gymnasiums.

?? Why do you think we need more Martial than all of our Vassals/Colonies combined? And why are you ignoring our Spiritbonded and the lack of coordination and logistical reach for the colonies?

maximillian · Nov 7, 2017

Citino said:
'So we're all agreed?'
'Aye.'
'Yes.'
'The god's desires are clear.'
'Alright then, now we must prepare to--'
'I OBJECT!'
'Oh gods, not you...'

*Obviously drunk patrician stumbles to the front*
'I DEMAND WE KILL THEM ALL! NO MERCY FOR THE HORSEF*CKERS!'
King: 'Dammit, who let him in. I thought I told the guards to lure him to the taverns if he showed up...'
'And how do you propose we do that?'
'IT'S OBVIOUS! THEY HAVE HORSES, BUT WE HAVE SOMETHING BETTER!'
'What? We do?'
'SHEEP! WE SHALL RIDE OUR FLOCKS INTO BATTLE!'
'...Right, we'll do that then. Hey, you know, I heard there was a tavern that was giving out free beer.'
*Patrician surreptitiously hands coins to guard, guard leaves to find tavern*
'I KNOW WHERE I AN NEEDED!'
'...Gods dammit, being king sucks.'

cant believe I missed this one.
anyhow, this man has obviously seen the light, and should be declared a saint of the flock!
sheep make excellent war mounts, and can even be used for chariots!

Rakuhn · Nov 7, 2017

George said:
?? Why do you think we need more Martial than all of our Vassals/Colonies combined? And why are you ignoring our Spiritbonded and the lack of coordination and logistical reach for the colonies?

The general sentiment seems to be that we cannot trust our mercenaries to have a higher combined martial score than our central polity. The logical conclusion of that sentiment is that we cannot trust our landed subordinates if they have a higher combined martial score than our central polity, doubly so if they have a higher martial score than our central polity and all of our mercenaries combined.

I did not include the cavalry score as it was not a consideration when we were discussing whether the mercenary companies could be trusted to have a higher martial score than our own.

I consider the difficulty of our subordinates coordinating against us, the logistical difficulty for us to attempt suppress our subordinates, and our stability loss from subordinates declaring independence to mostly cancel each other out.

George · Nov 7, 2017

Rakuhn said:
The general sentiment seems to be that we cannot trust our mercenaries to have a higher combined martial score than our central polity. The logical conclusion of that sentiment is that we cannot trust our landed subordinates if they have a higher combined martial score than our central polity, doubly so if they have a higher martial score than our central polity and all of our mercenaries combined.

I did not include the cavalry score as it was not a consideration when we were discussing whether the mercenary companies could be trusted to have a higher martial score than our own.

I consider the difficulty of our subordinates coordinating against us, the logistical difficulty for us to attempt suppress our subordinates, and our stability loss from subordinates declaring independence to mostly cancel each other out.

The Mercenary Companies are vastly more coordinated, unified, and mobile than levies from our subordinates would be, and I don't think people were right to ignore Spiritbonded there either.

If we have enough Stability we ought to have the option to just let them defect if needed. Though, I don't think we'd lose the stability if we contest them splitting off by going to war - or not as much anyway. Further, Txolla, Thunder Horse, and Heaven's Hawk are all at cap or overcap loyalty. They'd side with us in a civil war so we should be counting their martial on the other side in trying to determine if we'd win a civil war.

Also, be careful about assuming that a few people discussing something a while after a vote is locked represent general thread sentiment.

Manget · Nov 7, 2017

All this talk of the 5 Mercenary Companies idea has me thinking.

In my opinion we ether need 5 Mercenary Companies or we need to spend our next baby boom on Defence Policy.

If the nomads rolled just a little batter on Disease then all our Mercenary Companies would have die in the next war turn. We need to ether have to be able to always win in the field with more Mercenary Companies or be able to take the lost of all of our Mercenary Companies with a lot more Defence Infrastructure

I will vote for ether of those plans but I think we need to do one of them.

VoidZero · Nov 7, 2017

Citino said:
Well, we do have the 50+ Martial from levies, and possible the extra martial from our yeomen Econ as well, in combination with our regular army, so the mercs would need way more than 30 Martial to beat our kingdom, unless they got lucky.

There's always risk of concentrated 20~30 martial versus spread out 30~50 martial that is rised when needed. If they can sieze the capital then some of the more assertive governors and subsidiary states might sit on the fence to see which way the wind blows. That's usually the top reason for getting Palace fortification and housing Royal guard beside the Palace, as well as ensuring generals visit the Capital without their armies.

ETA50M · Nov 7, 2017

George said:
The Mercenary Companies are vastly more coordinated, unified, and mobile than levies from our subordinates would be, and I don't think people were right to ignore Spiritbonded there either.

If we have enough Stability we ought to have the option to just let them defect if needed. Though, I don't think we'd lose the stability if we contest them splitting off by going to war - or not as much anyway. Further, Txolla, Thunder Horse, and Heaven's Hawk are all at cap or overcap loyalty. They'd side with us in a civil war so we should be counting their martial on the other side in trying to determine if we'd win a civil war.

Also, be careful about assuming that a few people discussing something a while after a vote is locked represent general thread sentiment.

Would you be willing to let our various provinces and Free Cities to defect as well?

bluefur87 · Nov 7, 2017

veekie said:
Possible that they showed up to see why the porcelain and dye trade cut off. A lot of nomad groups really DO want to settle, but all the good land are already taken and fortified.
I doubt they absorbed much of the fleeing tribe though.

They'd have had worse disease problems if they did.

I could have sworn we were told...

Let me check.

Academia Nut said:
And then the messenger from the east came with news from the former Mountain Horse territory... a new chieftain had united the tribes scattered by the Pure in the last generation and absorbed the damage from the plague, and was now moving his people into the hills and passes of the Mountain Horse territory, as well as claiming stewardship of the semi-mythical Salt Sea Route.

Ah, so someone gathered up all of the nomads that the anti-settlement nomads scattered to form this new nomad group. Probably a nomad from the east who didn't like the disrupted trade.

Manget said:
All this talk of the 5 Mercenary Companies idea has me thinking.

In my opinion we ether need 5 Mercenary Companies or we need to spend our next baby boom on Defence Policy.

If the nomads rolled just a little batter on Disease then all our Mercenary Companies would have die in the next war turn. We need to ether have to be able to always win in the field with more Mercenary Companies or be able to take the lost of all of our Mercenary Companies with a lot more Defence Infrastructure

I will vote for ether of those plans but I think we need to do one of them.

I'd suggest another wall policy and Light Cavalry. Lots of Light Cavalry.

The point kinda was that our numbers meant very little in the face of vastly superior mobility.

VoidZero · Nov 7, 2017

bluefur87 said:
I'd suggest another wall policy and Light Cavalry. Lots of Light Cavalry.

The point kinda was that our numbers meant very little in the face of vastly superior mobility.

Then we would need to think about the goal of our light cavalry. Are they for tying up enemy's mobility so our number and equipment can catch up and crush enemy force, or should the cavalry be large enough to finish a battle on their own? Calvary is a lot more expansive in food and upkeep than foot soldiers and their supply wagon afterall.

Need to be aware of the political power large cavalry affords Priest and Patrician faction too.

Edit: Spell check and grammar. I totally blame my phone for this.

DakkaMania · Nov 7, 2017

VoidZero said:
Then we would need to think about the goal of our light cavalry. Are they for tying up enemy's mobility for us number and equipment to crush them, or are they large enough to finish a battle on their own? Calvary is a lot more expansive in food and upkeep than foot soldiers and their supply wagon afterall.

Need to be aware of the political power large cavalry affords priests and nobel faction too.

OTOH, if the priests have to deal with the cavalry, it means we are less likely to see the excesses of rogue knights from them.

But yes, their power over our elite formations is somewhat concerning, but so far they are an integral part of the Ymaryn.

Odds are that once horse training becomes more refined we'll see cavalry in other areas as well.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Civilised Sheep

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Passing Flan 布丁魔王