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Paths of Civilization

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I think we may be able to get away with only one Influence Subordinate for one turn. For now, the secession isn't official and they keep their nominal loyalty at least as a polite fiction.

If we break off WW from their little group, they lose one Governors Palace that can serve as nucleus for a break away state. Greenshore has nearly finished their own, but we also have Vassal Support running, which may buy us a tiny breather.

WW is also about a third of their total actions and is in striking distance to the other two, which makes the calculus more risky for them. Not impossible, but they still need to recover from the Plague. We do too. But we just got a total of 4 Light Cavalry, which is a very threatening bit of force, especially to Greenshore, which is located in a plains area originally noted for it's vulnerability to nomads.

If we start working on Warships next turn (which is doable with Guild Actions), we also dominate the seas, so they don't even have that as a shield.

Of course, that is all contingent on them having an idea what condition the Core is in and how badly a secession might go.
 
Alratan said:
Actually, why do we need to Salt Gift the new settling nomads so urgently?

Nomad memories may be short, but they're not short enough to forget what just happened when a nomad horde attacked Ymaryn - their leader was cursed by the gods and he and his family rotted alive.

That should at least buy us a turn so we can deal with them with a Salt Gift next main turn.
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Uh no, we've been here before after beating off the last Nomad Hero. If you don't give them a reason to be friendly then they're liable to go "I bet the previous guy was a giant pussy, WE are better than that!"

Fast and early reactions go further here.
Especially because they probably hadn't heard of the last lot dying horribly of curses. We need our traders to tell them the biggest story of the century.

Nomads don't transmit information very well.
 
Kiba said:
We are taking action to prevent that?
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The prevailing vote is to send an Influence at Western Wall and basically abandon the other two colonies, leaving them to their own devices.

Remember, they will be hurting worse than the Core Ymaryn from the continuing effects of the plague, as they're poorer and less developed. It's our duty as their liege lord to support them in heir time of trouble, not focus on setting up trade relations with outsiders. They'll need the help and expertise that influence represents. Narratively, it would probably be a bunch of priests and clerks going out to teach them how to manage the remnants of the plague better.
 
Alratan said:
The prevailing vote is to send an Influence at Western Wall and basically abandon the other two colonies, leaving them to their own devices.

Remember, they will be hurting worse than the Core Ymaryn from the continuing effects of the plague, as they're poorer and less developed. It's our duty as their liege lord to support them in heir time of trouble, not focus on setting up trade relations with outsiders. They'll need the help and expertise that influence represents. Narratively, it would probably be a bunch of priests and clerks going out to teach them how to manage the remnants of the plague better.
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Those outsiders are at our exposed underbelly. It is very much sensible to make sure shit doesn't catch fire again.
 
Alratan said:
The prevailing vote is to send an Influence at Western Wall and basically abandon the other two colonies, leaving them to their own devices.

Remember, they will be hurting worse than the Core Ymaryn from the continuing effects of the plague, as they're poorer and less developed. It's our duty as their liege lord to support them in heir time of trouble, not focus on setting up trade relations with outsiders. They'll need the help and expertise that influence represents. Narratively, it would probably be a bunch of priests and clerks going out to teach them how to manage the remnants of the plague better.
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Um. No. We're sending support to all the colonies, not just the Western colony.

OK. I am wrong.
 
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veekie said:
Especially because they probably hadn't heard of the last lot dying horribly of curses. We need our traders to tell them the biggest story of the century.

Nomads don't transmit information very well.
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I don't believe that. An event of this magnitude, with the shattered remnants of the Pure fleeing back into the steppe and inevitably then being enslaved and assimilated into other groups will have spread fast.

It also doesn't matter how much of a pussy you think the other guy was when he wasn't ever defeated and was instead cursed by the gods. You're not hard enough to fight being cursed to rot alive.

Kiba said:
Um. No. We're sending support to all the colonies, not just the Western colony.
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We only do that if we take the Influence reaction three times. If we only take it once we only send aid to Western Wall.
 
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Alratan said:
It's our duty as their liege lord to support them in heir time of trouble, not focus on setting up trade relations with outsiders.
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And if we were taking a Trade Mission reaction instead of Influence Subordinate, you might have a point. As it stands, the Salt Gift has nothing to do with trade relations and everything to do with preventing another nomad invasion. That goal also qualifies as "duty to our people," considering how many of them would die in such an invasion. And your notion of what Influence Subordinate would entail here is at least as speculative as our expectation that the nomad threat should be dealt with post haste.
 
veekie said:
...this is as nearly completely wrong as you can get.
Half-exiles are not converting. People are slapping the monotheists with trivial and frivolous offenses to make them half exiles and keep them half exiles. Thats why we have a Reform Lower Courts option, the courts really ARE abusing their powers.

In the modern day you see similar cases where large companies trigger lawsuits on individuals, and simply break them because they either have to go to settlement, try to represent themselves in court(with predictable amounts of ass being kicked) or go broke trying to pay for legal representation
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And you are not paying attention to the update, read the green part. It says the surviving half exiles and mono-faith worshippers both being kicked out at the same time separately, so the two were different but are now mixed. So that shows it's our half-exiles taking up the mono-faith instead of mono-faith being systematically turned to half-exile. So unless you have source you may bury that.

Academia Nut said:
The other problem was his predecessor deciding to take all the refugees and shuffle them into the countryside, away from the cities and other settlements. Combined with large numbers of surviving half-exiles being kicked out of the cities and the issues with the One God worshipers being similarly kicked out and told to go where outsiders went... yeah, there were now enclaves of People who many thought of as being universally tainted, and it was going to be a massive headache to disentangle the issue.
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veekie said:
[] [Enclave] Clean up lower courts (Main Enforce Justice, ???)
Admin + Diplomacy solution

This targets our corruption problem. We know the elite have been using frivolous charges and accusations of wasting resources, or being disruptive to make people they don't like into half exiles.
This had been going on for centuries as a known issue, but had recently gotten worse because we have invented lawyers who can get the elite to a royal appeal(which also means the lower classes can't get one because the slots are all taken).

It doesn't solve the enclave problem, but it does reduce the animosity between the enclaves and the general population. At least until it flares back up again.
See Jewish and Gypsy populations in europe, or Buddhists and Christians in Japan.
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Are you going to change your position every other post? Clean up lower court work or no?

veekie said:
-Lower courts don't do anything for enclaves of the tainted either. Their community leaders judging them are also of the 'tainted' even if we reform that.
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DragonParadox said:
"His Tribal Gods were not strong enough, ours are better"

Same narrative now with gods.
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Would they even have distinct tribal gods? I have to admit I don't know enough about steppe religions to say.

I also think people are seriously underestimating the cultural sophistication and interconnectedness of the Steppe cultures. I've just been to the Scythian exhibition at the British Museum, which deals with this period, and they seem to be much more cohesive and persistent over time than is suggested here.

Wiadi said:
And if we were taking a Trade Mission reaction instead of Influence Subordinate, you might have a point. As it stands, the Salt Gift has nothing to do with trade relations and everything to do with preventing another nomad invasion. That goal also qualifies as "duty to our people," considering how many of them would die in such an invasion. And your notion of what Influence Subordinate would entail here is at least as speculative as our expectation that the nomad threat should be dealt with post haste.
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I believe that we know that an Influence Subordinate involves sending experts to help them run their country. While they're dealing with the remnants of a near-civilisation ending plague like this, what kind of experts do you think a heroic admin and mystic would send to help them?
 
Wiadi said:
It shows neither. It only shows that both groups are similarly ostracized.
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If the two groups didn't mix then where did all these enclave settlements come from? We haven't accepted more refugees this vote and i don't remember if enclave was mentioned last update. So it's logical to read the two kicked out groups forming into enclaves.

Edit: Not to mention having same negative experience of being kicled out of their home. Bonding over that is common.
 
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Alratan said:
I believe that we know that an Influence Subordinate involves sending experts to help them run their country. While they're dealing with the remnants of a near-civilisation ending plague like this, what kind of experts do you think a heroic admin and mystic would send to help them?
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Source on the first part? I don't recall seeing that but also could very well have missed it.
 
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
 
VoidZero said:
If the two groups didn't mix then where did all these enclave settlements come from? We haven't accepted more refugees this vote and i don't remember if enclave was mentioned last update. So it's logical to read the two kicked out groups forming into enclaves.
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They formed (or ended up in, same difference really) mixed enclaves, yes, but that doesn't demonstrate anything about whether or why any half-exiles converted.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [Enclave] Increase Connectivity (Main Build Roads, ???)
[X] [Enclave] Clean up lower courts (Main Enforce Justice, ???)

I'd prefer it if we looked into how low-level officials were conducting themselves, because there's been endemic corruption there for hundreds of years now and it's about time we did something about it.

But barring that roads are nice.
 
VoidZero said:
And you are not paying attention to the update, read the green part. It says the surviving half exiles and mono-faith worshippers both being kicked out at the same time separately, so the two were different but are now mixed. So that shows it's our half-exiles taking up the mono-faith instead of mono-faith being systematically turned to half-exile. So unless you have source you may bury that.
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Dude
The other problem was his predecessor deciding to take all the refugees and shuffle them into the countryside, away from the cities and other settlements. Combined with large numbers of surviving half-exiles being kicked out of the cities and the issues with the One God worshipers being similarly kicked out and told to go where outsiders went... yeah, there were now enclaves of People who many thought of as being universally tainted, and it was going to be a massive headache to disentangle the issue.
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1) We put refugees, some of who are Highlander monotheists, into their own villages.

2) We kicked out some of the half-exiles from the cities because our cities dissolved from high EE.
2.1) As per the previous turn, an appalling large number of the monotheists were made into half exiles.
2.2) The half exiles moved into the refugee villages because theres plenty of room there.

3) We kicked out some of the monotheists from the cities
3.1) The monotheists moved into the refugee villages because there are more monotheists there.

These are three separate problems.
The generational half exiles are not monotheist converts(if anything due to the monotheist purity beliefs, they are going to be treated much like pig farmers converting to Islam).

Are you going to change your position every other post? Clean up lower court work or no?
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There are three problems here, not one. These problems are not going to help each other:
-Foreign refugees forming enclaves of foreign cultures rather than assimilating.
--Remove Settlement - Works. No more villages, no more enclaves
--Crackdown - Partially works. Significant chunk of refugees are monotheists.
--Courts - No effect.
--Reconcile - No effect.

-Corruption is allowing half-exile sentences to be abused.
--Remove Settlement - Worsened. Much of the displaced enclave populations will be hit by half exile sentences in their new homes
--Crackdown - Worsened. More of the monotheists being oppressed will become half exiles.
--Courts - Works. Legal loopholes will be closed.
--Reconcile - Partially works. Monotheists no longer being wrongfully half-exiled on purpose.

-Monotheists forming enclaves of monotheists.
--Remove Settlement - Works. No more villages, no more enclaves.
--Crackdown - Works. No more monotheists, no more enclaves
--Courts - No effect.
--Reconcile - Works. Monotheists after reconciliation are part of the People.

Is this clearer?
 
veekie said:
Dude

1) We put refugees, some of who are Highlander monotheists, into their own villages.

2) We kicked out some of the half-exiles from the cities because our cities dissolved from high EE.
2.1) As per the previous turn, an appalling large number of the monotheists were made into half exiles.
2.2) The half exiles moved into the refugee villages because theres plenty of room there.

3) We kicked out some of the monotheists from the cities
3.1) The monotheists moved into the refugee villages because there are more monotheists there.

These are three separate problems.
The generational half exiles are not monotheist converts(if anything due to the monotheist purity beliefs, they are going to be treated much like pig farmers converting to Islam).



There are three problems here, not one. These problems are not going to help each other:
-Foreign refugees forming enclaves of foreign cultures rather than assimilating.
--Remove Settlement - Works. No more villages, no more enclaves
--Crackdown - Partially works. Significant chunk of refugees are monotheists.
--Courts - No effect.
--Reconcile - No effect.

-Corruption is allowing half-exile sentences to be abused.
--Remove Settlement - Worsened. Much of the displaced enclave populations will be hit by half exile sentences in their new homes
--Crackdown - Worsened. More of the monotheists being oppressed will become half exiles.
--Courts - Works. Legal loopholes will be closed.
--Reconcile - Partially works. Monotheists no longer being wrongfully half-exiled on purpose.

-Monotheists forming enclaves of monotheists.
--Remove Settlement - Works. No more villages, no more enclaves.
--Crackdown - Works. No more monotheists, no more enclaves
--Courts - No effect.
--Reconcile - Works. Monotheists after reconciliation are part of the People.

Is this clearer?
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You don't comment on roads?
 
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