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Paths of Civilization

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SeptimusMagisto said:
Can we replace the salt in salt gift with some other material? If they claim to own the Salt Sea, they're not going to be impressed by salt. Maybe we could substitute some gold or maybe a nice poppy seed bun?

Also, did it seem to anyone else like the tone of this update was unusually informal?
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Salt Gift is basically a shorthand "We show them our finest wares" aka "Invitation to the dance-off, trader version".
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Can we replace the salt in salt gift with some other material? If they claim to own the Salt Sea, they're not going to be impressed by salt. Maybe we could substitute some gold or maybe a nice poppy seed bun?

Also, did it seem to anyone else like the tone of this update was unusually informal?
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But salt is the only unlimited resource we have both in character and out of character.:V We probably get assorted gift package once our crafts are of sufficient quality, like extravagant ceramic items and gold finery.

I like this less formal format, it's like a memoir of sorts.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

Updating vote to include payment for the Salt Gift, since that's apparently needed (trusting the math people on this one).
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
 
[X] [Enclave] Increase Connectivity (Main Build Roads, ???)

I am so sick of us not having enough roads.

[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)

Pls no wars pls thxbye.

[] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

Not eating more Cent right now.

[] [React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[] [React] Contact more distant relations (Sec Trade Mission to Highlanders and Western People)

Not now.

[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)

Ugh, vassals.

[X] [React] Expand Redshore market (2xSec actions to 0/6 Redshore Market)

Tempting. Grand Bazaar sounds useful.

[X] [React] Expand Palace (2xGreat Hall Annexes)

Get the Admin-relieveing quest done.

[] [React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)

Not now.

[] [React] Farm (Main Expand Econ)

Got PSN for this.

PSN
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

Either works.
 
Shard said:
[X] [Enclave] Increase Connectivity (Main Build Roads, ???)

I am so sick of us not having enough roads.

[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)

Pls no wars pls thxbye.

[] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

Not eating more Cent right now.

[] [React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[] [React] Contact more distant relations (Sec Trade Mission to Highlanders and Western People)

Not now.

[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)

Ugh, vassals.

[X] [React] Expand Redshore market (2xSec actions to 0/6 Redshore Market)

Tempting. Grand Bazaar sounds useful.

[X] [React] Expand Palace (2xGreat Hall Annexes)

Get the Admin-relieveing quest done.

[] [React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)

Not now.

[] [React] Farm (Main Expand Econ)

Got PSN for this.

PSN
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

Either works.
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Apparently if we want to take Salt Gift we need a cash crop PSN to pay for it, since our Wealth income is still reduced by lack of external trade.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Can we replace the salt in salt gift with some other material? If they claim to own the Salt Sea, they're not going to be impressed by salt. Maybe we could substitute some gold or maybe a nice poppy seed bun?

Also, did it seem to anyone else like the tone of this update was unusually informal?
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No, they claimed stewardship of the Salt Sea trade route, which is different from being the civilization who owned the Salt Sea.
 
I think it's pretty critical that we do two Influence Subordinates this turn. Getting them back will be much harder than doing just about anything else that we lose by not taking actions on te react list. We also know that double mains have non-linear benefits, which is an extra reason to take both right now. Everything else on the list save the Salt Gift can wait.

Basically I see every Influence not taken as a colony lost. That really, really matters. Once gone, it will be vastly harder to get them back.

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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Fucking nomads. If they hadn't spawned another hero we wouldn't have to waste one of our reactions on them.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Actually, why do we need to Salt Gift the new settling nomads so urgently?

Nomad memories may be short, but they're not short enough to forget what just happened when a nomad horde attacked Ymaryn - their leader was cursed by the gods and he and his family rotted alive.

That should at least buy us a turn so we can deal with them with a Salt Gift next main turn.
 
Alratan said:
Actually, why do we need to Salt Gift the new settling nomads so urgently?

Nomad memories may be short, but they're not short enough to forget what just happened when a nomad horde attacked Ymaryn - their leader was cursed by the gods and he and his family rotted alive.

That should at least buy us a turn so we can deal with them with a Salt Gift next main turn.
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If we make them our friend now, we can invite them to our Games embassy. Also astrological prediction fairly good.
 
fictionfan said:
Ya, it is just annoying how the Nomads have no memory. Maybe make a theater? Or commission a performance troop that goes around all the nearby lands.
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If you want to make a difference there?
Key elements(again, drawing from China since they did all this, though possibly unintentionally):
-Invent paper and produce it in vast quantities for trade.
-Engage in extended trade relations with nearby Nomads. Trade at a loss if you have to, give tribute if you have to.

What happens then is that the nomads will learn your language because it's the local trade tongue. They will use your language to talk to other nomads. They will learn your forms of writing so they can't be cheated by your traders. They will use your history and stories as the basis for their own oral traditions.

They will write their own stories.
But ultimately its about capturing nomad clans into your cultural orbit. They may yet join a horde or be annihilated by a horde, but nomads trading with settled civilizations often buy the settled narrative.
Janadus said:
I agree that it's a much better short-term solution, and because we don't know how much longer we'll have Uvothyn for, I certainly see the appeal.

I accept that we may wish to take it to prevent immediate problems. I am not sure, however, that it will prove a permanent solution. We will need interconnectivity and we will need some system for resolving disputes arising from religious cosmopolitanism to make a truly stable legacy. It is quite possible that Reconciliation will provide the latter (as Cleaning Courts almost certainly will), but it will not provide the former.

I'll vote for it when the stats are up, because I do agree that this is a problem best addressed quickly, but this is probably not the last we'll see of this issue.
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The issue of interconnectivity is that no one king can do enough of it to do more than scuff the paint. The enclaves currently are an issue but it's not yet hardened, they have not yet adopted a separate identity.
VoidZero said:
I view half-exiles joining the mono-faith largely due to our current faith's inability of getting improvement in half-exile's life and their children's life without offering any hope nor reason. The mono-faith gives the half-exiles hope for better future by saying all are wrong because every other faith are wrong and corrupt, this is an easy channel to blame "other" for all the woe. Our non half-exiles and half-exiles are no stranger to our faith, but only half-exiles are converting over to mono-faith in large numbers, so it must be something that is largely applicable to half-exiles and not other groups; leaving hardship or lack of possible improvement as likely candidate.

Also, i think markets in cities will lead to smaller versions in villages and towns; so it would lower people's requirement of working in less physical demanding jobs and getting some development in small time business. And associated small business law and taxation. :ogles:
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...this is as nearly completely wrong as you can get.
Half-exiles are not converting. People are slapping the monotheists with trivial and frivolous offenses to make them half exiles and keep them half exiles. Thats why we have a Reform Lower Courts option, the courts really ARE abusing their powers.

In the modern day you see similar cases where large companies trigger lawsuits on individuals, and simply break them because they either have to go to settlement, try to represent themselves in court(with predictable amounts of ass being kicked) or go broke trying to pay for legal representation.

Furthermore, building markets in cities did not trigger the development of village markets, village markets arose as a result of rising rural population density with the increase of agricultural productivity.

The problem's solutions each target different issues:
[] [Enclave] Remove the settlements (-2 Progress for Internal Reorg, -6 EE, -2 Econ, -1 Stability, ???)
Admin solution.

This is all about preventing pockets of non-culturally converted population from forming.
Once formed, they become culturally and economically isolated, which means that when plagues or famine run through the country these nodes will erupt much like tuberclosis does to weakened immune systems.

It solves the problem by forced resettlement, which DOES work if you scatter the population to the extent that their culture dissolves. A hundred monotheists in one village is an enclave of heretics. A hundred monotheists in ten villages are the local weirdo family.

This is definitely and absolutely effective. We'd never see these enclaves be a problem anymore, though the monotheists will be back.

[] [Enclave] Crack down on the monotheists (Main Hunt Troublemakers, ???)
Admin + Intrigue solution

This puts the blame squarely on the religious differences.
By purging the monotheists at this point we more or less force whats left to go underground or convert to mainstream for survival.
It also doesn't really work that well considering how this sort of thing only widens the rift and reinforces their faith.

Nothing like an external foe to unite.

[] [Enclave] Increase Connectivity (Main Build Roads, ???)
Admin + Culture solution

This targets our cultural drift issue, but it works best when your culture is mostly homogenous. As it is, while these enclaves exist, building roads won't do much if people won't use them.

Well off traders would prefer not to go to tainted villages, while the tainted monotheists would also prefer not to go out from where everyone shares their beliefs to communities where they will be persecuted.

This is the equivalent of a healthy diet. It helps, but its far better as a preventative and it won't do anything to help if you are diseased already.

[] [Enclave] Clean up lower courts (Main Enforce Justice, ???)
Admin + Diplomacy solution

This targets our corruption problem. We know the elite have been using frivolous charges and accusations of wasting resources, or being disruptive to make people they don't like into half exiles.
This had been going on for centuries as a known issue, but had recently gotten worse because we have invented lawyers who can get the elite to a royal appeal(which also means the lower classes can't get one because the slots are all taken).

It doesn't solve the enclave problem, but it does reduce the animosity between the enclaves and the general population. At least until it flares back up again.
See Jewish and Gypsy populations in europe, or Buddhists and Christians in Japan.

[] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
Mysticism solution

This goes to our debate practice, which hopefully pulls out the basis of the enclaves altogether.

The priests go down to debate the truth of their approach, and the final outcome would be one of the following:
-Monotheists show that they are right, religion shifts to monotheistic version - Heroic Mystic king blocks this.
-Both sides come to a draw and are even more pissed at each other - Heroic Mystic king blocks this
-Both sides don't really convince each other of anything. We wasted the action.
-Monotheists show that they have a point, religion adopts some of monotheists' values. Monotheists now seen as somewhat extreme but still a true branch of the faith
-Both sides come to a draw, but understand each other better. Religious friction reduces. Values exchanged on both sides.
-Polytheists show that they are right, monotheists transplanted into a branch of mainstream. Enclaves cease to be meaningful.
 
Kiba said:
If we make them our friend now, we can invite them to our Games embassy. Also astrological prediction fairly good.
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It's useful, sure. Is it as useful as preventing one of our colonies declaring independence?

Think of Lord's Loyalty. Think of how we risked everything to avoid losing the Lowlands. This is a much smaller risk to take to keep a subordinate.
 
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Alratan said:
Actually, why do we need to Salt Gift the new settling nomads so urgently?

Nomad memories may be short, but they're not short enough to forget what just happened when a nomad horde attacked Ymaryn - their leader was cursed by the gods and he and his family rotted alive.

That should at least buy us a turn so we can deal with them with a Salt Gift next main turn.
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I'm not convinced that our hero king will die this turn, and I don't think he'll do the salt gift next turn if he starts.

Also, this is a heroic trader nomad king. Giving them the tools to set up long term relations with people early on in their rule will allow them more time to set up a more peaceful trade focused nomad polity.

Also, something occurs to me.
@Academia Nut will increasing our stability lower the chance of our colonies trying to break away?
 
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