We are apparently getting two passive policies to use next turn, so I think we're going to be fine keeping both Infrastructure passives.
I think we should spring for City Support and Diplomacy. Diplomacy because as I mentioned earlier, we have a massive intel problem, and City Support because it makes managing cities less of a headache. I also really want to see some kind of reform in how we manage our cities, because Panem doesn't strike me as sustainable or desirable.
Why are we adding a second Vassal Support policy?
And while I think skullduggery is great, doing it before diplomacy is kinda puting the cart before the horse.
1) We have enough diplomacy drip to pay for Skullduggery.
2) @PrimalShadow didn't like the mechanical benefit of diplomacy enough, because it gives only 1 diplomacy every turn, despite AN warning not to deride those passive policies as being inefficient.
3) @PrimalShadow also believes that the problem with our subordinate is urgent enough to warrant another vassal support policy.
I on the other hand, would like City Support to defray cost, though I am willing to go for a diplomacy and skullduggery combo which will work in concert to spread our intrigue network though our diplomatic contacts.
We are apparently getting two passive policies to use next turn, so I think we're going to be fine keeping both Infrastructure passives.
I think we should spring for City Support and Diplomacy. Diplomacy because as I mentioned earlier, we have a massive intel problem, and City Support because it makes managing cities less of a headache. I also really want to see some kind of reform in how we manage our cities, because Panem doesn't strike me as sustainable or desirable.
Why are we adding a second Vassal Support policy?
And while I think skullduggery is great, doing it before diplomacy is kinda puting the cart before the horse.
Because we're so far behind on influencing our subordinates that even 2 is less than we need, and because in the short term we've got 2 colonies (western wall and greenshore) at 2 loyalty, 3 dependency, right after they were malcontents in the second sons crisis, and we're a little low on stats to support/influence right now, so getting even a little more help out of policies towards that (and the general issue with the vassals to the east) would be quite useful. Plus we've only got 2 open slots right now, and while we're set to get another by way of prestige within a turn or two, we also have to keep one open to get loyalty from our vassal support policy(ies), we're set to spend at least one (on a free city) when we get the chance, we should probably look towards another merc company (in particular a double main raise army one, to further professionalize our military), we might want another march since we should have another target for one now*, and if we are in a golden age we'll have prestige innovations we can buy that we might want to take, since "subordinate reform" already got us +6 econ/turn for only 10 prestige.
And skullduggery is more focused on internal stuff, i think--at least, without a diplo policy it will be And as we saw this turn, thats pretty important too. ANd if you mean on a stats level, we already have +4 diplo/turn, we can eat -2/turn if we took skullduggery first. Again, i'd prefer diplo first, but compromise is how things go I'll likely approval vote vassal, diplo, and skullduggery when the vote in question happens, and maybe even approval vote city support (Because we'll be at [-11+6] econ/turn), though i suspect by the end i'll strategic vote for whichever 2 of the first 3 are highest.
*Specifically, i asked if we should have both aqueduct targets and a new march target, after the western wall integration, and he said "yes", so might just be the former, but probably both.
We are apparently getting two passive policies to use next turn, so I think we're going to be fine keeping both Infrastructure passives.
I think we should spring for City Support and Diplomacy. Diplomacy because as I mentioned earlier, we have a massive intel problem, and City Support because it makes managing cities less of a headache. I also really want to see some kind of reform in how we manage our cities, because Panem doesn't strike me as sustainable or desirable.
Why are we adding a second Vassal Support policy?
And while I think skullduggery is great, doing it before diplomacy is kinda puting the cart before the horse.
Unfortunately we need another Vassal Support for it to have an effect on our subordinates, one policy is nearly useless with the amount we have. Two probably isn't enough either, but it's way better than one.
I'm fully behind diplomacy and either city support or skullduggery for the next two policies.
We didn't need a Secondary War Mission to send the Red Banner Company to fight for the TS or the HK. Why would we need one to fight for us? How does that not sound right?
@Academia Nut, can you confirm that sending the Red Banner Company to fight the nomads does not require a Secondary or Main War Mission from us?
Considering its always been that way, but also been (to my knowledge) consistently taken into account in the math when it should, i really dont think its an oversight, as opposed to just being how AN prefers it...
Unfortunately we need another Vassal Support for it to have an effect on our subordinates, one policy is nearly useless with the amount we have. Two probably isn't enough either, but it's way better than one.
I'm fully behind diplomacy and either city support or skullduggery for the next two policies.
To clarify, do you mean you agree on going Vassal Support next, and then the two after that are diplo and [city or skull]? Or are you saying vassal support is good but we should do diplo and [city or skull] before another vassal support policy?
Edit: Oh, one more reason, if a minor one compared to the others, to get another vassal support policy: Since we need only 1 open slot no matter how many VS policies we have active in order to get the loyalty bonus, we effectively get X-1 slots to work with for X policies, so we go from 0 bonus slots to 1 bonus slot by getting a second policy. Thats an infinite increase in efficiency, afterall
This is actually not an oversight and is working as designed, since our econ can fluctuate a lot. Talk to Abby Normal, they know more and have supporting WoAN.
If you people insist on tempting murphy, at least I can enjoy myself. >3>
To continue being super late to the discussion, what I think the policies do is that any stat that is chosen, is produced in city. So Agriculture, I think, is less about the surrounding land being given for its use, and more to do with the start of Urban Gardening. Any City that has Patronage long enough, becomes a center of Ymaryn culture. Sure they provide stats at the start, but I think they are just another way for innovation rolls. That in mind, if we do get a chance to try one out, I would like to try out Trade, Diplomacy or Agriculture.
Considering its always been that way, but also been (to my knowledge) consistently taken into account in the math when it should, i really dont think its an oversight, as opposed to just being how AN prefers it...
To clarify, do you mean you agree on going Vassal Support next, and then the two after that are diplo and [city or skull]? Or are you saying vassal support is good but we should do diplo and [city or skull] before another vassal support policy?
Edit: Oh, one more reason, if a minor one compared to the others, to get another vassal support policy: Since we need only 1 open slot no matter how many VS policies we have active in order to get the loyalty bonus, we effectively get X-1 slots to work with for X policies, so we go from 0 bonus slots to 1 bonus slot by getting a second policy. Thats an infinite increase in efficiency, afterall
Ah, I meant we should do diplomacy first and then city support or skullduggery before another vassal support policy. I'm unlikely to vote for another vassal support anytime soon since it isn't that effective with the amount of subordinates we have, but every little helps I suppose. Plus, two makes it an even number and that makes everything better
Because we're so far behind on influencing our subordinates that even 2 is less than we need, and because in the short term we've got 2 colonies (western wall and greenshore) at 2 loyalty, 3 dependency, right after they were malcontents in the second sons crisis, and we're a little low on stats to support/influence right now, so getting even a little more help out of policies towards that (and the general issue with the vassals to the east) would be quite useful. Plus we've only got 2 open slots right now, and while we're set to get another by way of prestige within a turn or two, we also have to keep one open to get loyalty from our vassal support policy(ies), we're set to spend at least one (on a free city) when we get the chance, we should probably look towards another merc company (in particular a double main raise army one, to further professionalize our military), we might want another march since we should have another target for one now*, and if we are in a golden age we'll have prestige innovations we can buy that we might want to take, since "subordinate reform" already got us +6 econ/turn for only 10 prestige.
ō_ō at those Loyalty stats. Happened without me noticing, but it was bound to occur eventually.
Can't say I agree that another policy's going to make much difference, because I think our issues here are going to require more than just policies (better Naval for one), but I can see where you're coming from now.
And skullduggery is more focused on internal stuff, i think--at least, without a diplo policy it will be And as we saw this turn, thats pretty important too. ANd if you mean on a stats level, we already have +4 diplo/turn, we can eat -2/turn if we took skullduggery first. Again, i'd prefer diplo first, but compromise is how things go I'll likely approval vote vassal, diplo, and skullduggery when the vote in question happens, and maybe even approval vote city support (Because we'll be at [-11+6] econ/turn), though i suspect by the end i'll strategic vote for whichever 2 of the first 3 are highest.
*Specifically, i asked if we should have both aqueduct targets and a new march target, after the western wall integration, and he said "yes", so might just be the former, but probably both.
Fair point about skullduggery being mostly internal at the moment. I was thinking about an international spy network, but we do need to do some housecleaning before we attempt that. I was hoping we could pair a switch to Skullduggery with More Blackbirds, because I'm a bit of a sucker for synergistic actions. If that's not happening, that's fine, I'll be happy just to have a Skullduggery policy, but if we can swing it that'd be wonderful.
So yeah, I can get behind Skullduggery. I'd still like to see it paired with a Diplomacy policy, but that can wait a turn or two if it has to.
Inspired in part by @ExNihilo's omake from the same perspective, I give you: A Different Start (Negaverse Omake)
The Golden City of Trell.
There are some cities which are cleaner. To the East lie the Ymaryn, crafters of Iron and makers of fine Dye. Their cities claim this virtue with their Gardens and Baths.
There are some cities which are grander. To the South lie Khemetri, great exporters of food and growers of cotton. Their cities claim this honor with their awe-inspiring Pyramids and Temples.
But search far and search wide
and still you won't find
a city of Trade
where more wealth is made.
To Merchants, it is a holy land; a city where your wares can be sold at great profit, exchanged for great and wondrous goods from exotic lands.
To Sailors, it is a safe harbor; a port well defended from unlawful pirates and well equipped to help make repairs, for a price.
To Mercenaries, it is a paymaster; a polity brimming with riches, and ruthless enough to fund "foreign policy" that will let it acquire more.
What is it to your people?
[ ] Home and Hearth You are the Trelli core. The city of Trell is yours; a fountain of untold wealth and prosperity.
You'd been doing so well, too - opening new markets, acquiring more raw resources from your new colony, and leveraging that into greater power and wealth. But fortune is fickle, people are greedy, and somehow your colony has gotten it into its head that you are not fit to lead them. Clearly, that cannot stand.
Control over the city of Trell and the Trelli Strait.
Control over the Navy and the Mercenary Companies.
High Wealth, low Econ.
Start With Rule of Gold Value: "He who has the gold, makes the rules (which are often about who is allowed to have gold)".
[ ] Origin and Destination You are the Trelli Colony. Your grandfathers had been born in Trell, and set out to settle the lands you now reside in. Once, you may have believed in the shared prosperity of the Trelli people, but no longer. The Core grows lazy and corrupt, feeding off of your efforts and granting little in return. It is time for you to secure your autonomy, and perhaps more. Who knows? In a generation or three, perhaps it will be your heirs who rule in Trell.
Control over the Trelli Colony and its agricultural production.
Control over widespread militias, ability to manumit slaves to serve as warriors.
High Econ, low Wealth.
Starts with the Greater Ambition Value: "When there is a will, there is a way."
[ ] Oppression and Opportunity You are the Trelli slaves, forced to work the land in their Colony. Trelli Mercenaries captured your forefathers from their land and people, tearing them from everything they had known. Not that the current generation has seen this; all they have known is their work as the lowest of the low among the Trelli Colony. Now, the Trelli Civil war gives your people a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Some will earn their freedom by joining the Colony in its defense against the core. Others may attempt a revolt, risking life and limb to TAKE their freedom. But however it happens, this war is a chance for a brighter future.
Control over nothing but your own bodies, and whatever tools or weapons you can obtain from your former masters.
???
Starts with the For a Brighter Future Value: "May our children lead lives brighter than our own."
ō_ō at those Loyalty stats. Happened without me noticing, but it was bound to occur eventually.
Can't say I agree that another policy's going to make much difference, because I think our issues here are going to require more than just policies (better Naval for one), but I can see where you're coming from now.
Fair point about skullduggery being mostly internal at the moment. I was thinking about an international spy network, but we do need to do some housecleaning before we attempt that. I was hoping we could pair a switch to Skullduggery with More Blackbirds, because I'm a bit of a sucker for synergistic actions. If that's not happening, that's fine, I'll be happy just to have a Skullduggery policy, but if we can swing it that'd be wonderful.
So yeah, I can get behind Skullduggery. I'd still like to see it paired with a Diplomacy policy, but that can wait a turn or two if it has to.
Yeah, i dont think it'll help much in the short term either...but i also think its a big enough problem that we should prioritize it, even if it only makes a small issue, and i also think that doubling up will make it much less likely that we'll end up back at this point soon. Plus, as i said, i want room for free city/merc/march and/or a prestige innovation. Especially the prestige innovation, since that is the kind of thing that might let us make things better on short term notice if we roll the right innovation choices.
Blackbirds haven't been useful for internal spying in a long time, though? Like, i think AN has explicitly said so, but if nothing else, most of our people, and most of the stuff needing intrigue, are in cities now. Blackbirds are focused on hiding in forests and to a lesser extent plains, not cities. They're combat scouts, saboteurs, and maybe assassins still, but their time as internal agents is more or less over. They might be able to help out in the rural areas...but the problem with the rural areas is that 1. mostly any individual corruption isn't the problem, its the aggregate, 2. a lot of the corruption is hard to prove, being things that are seemingly "just" from how things happened with everyone in power being related, or 3. hard to deal with when everyone in power is related
I mean, our Sacred Forest project's original benefit was "all the forests in your territory are automatically managed", and the Greater version still has that listed...
Ask AN then? But we mostly see this happening only in Amber Road and distant colonies, which have insufficient infrastructure to run their own Greater Sacred Forest.
Might be that the megaproject is not yet active for them
We should only make blackmouth a free city if we dont want to make more cities for policies. Because while it only directly lowers thresholds by 1, it indirectly lowers them by a lot more--because it means we can't have blackmouth as a regular city with blockhousing, which provides a net +4 threshold overall, while also losing out on both the existing 4 threshold points in infrastructure the city provides, as well as the chance to build more infrastructure and give even more of a boost.
A blackmouth with, say, [Aqueduct x2, Baths x2, Governor's Palace, Sig Walls] [Block Housing] would have a threshold of 31 EE (20 Base + 6 Infrastructure + 5 Block Housing). Then, Valleyhome would be our second priority city with a threshold of 26 (31 Inherit - 4 Second City + 6 Infrastructure - 7 No Block Housing). Then, all the remaining cities would work normally, with an initial inheritance of 26.
Meanwhile, blackmouth as free city would give us a first city of valleyhome with a threshold of 19 EE (20 Base + 6 Infrastructure - 7 No Block Housing). Then the second priority city would likely have a threshold of 18 or so. So we'd be giving up ~8 EE worth of threshold on every city.
...Why would it act as a martial free city? I'm pretty sure its got like an entire province from the western wall between it and the nomads... Is this still about it being a target for colossal walls? because that was literally only because it was the only regular true city we had active, i'm pretty sure.
Only True City we had active which could reasonably expect to be attacked by nomad hordes.
Also because it has a major river connection all the way up the steppes, so if you want to deploy against Nomads, you want to your army to board transports at Blackmouth.
Those pirates must have been eating their spinach. They're getting hit by three of our colonies, two of our mercenary groups, the Freehills people, and our main army, and they're still winning. While disorganized. I'm surprised they haven't conquered the entire sea.
Ironworks helps a lot there, despite being bad for health and the environment, as it has a pretty big impact on unskilled labor if the tools make it that much more efficient.
But yeah, Black Soil probably would make the half exile problem worse, potentially bringing it to our attention where we get to choose between "moral choice that set society on fire" and "realpolitik choice that makes it more okay to shit on the have-nots"
Markets don't create more problems.
Baths don't create more problems.
Of the things that Infrastructure Policy can (and does) build often, the only ones I can think of that arguably create problems is the Aqueduct, since that allows more cities to form. On the other hand, NOT building the aqueduct might cause outcrops of disease...
I'd bet building Markets will trigger and expose some new crisis. Speeding up the flow of urban trade will also expose areas where taxes are being evaded, the guilds realize they are infringing on each other, as well as make it MUCH easier for the economy to panic because trade is going faster. On the other hand it basically shits money so totally worth it.
Baths as already mentioned, consume fuel, which are either action intensive(Plant Forest), time intensive(Forestry) or expensive(Kilns) to obtain.
And of course remember building certain infrastructure will trigger a city to start forming whether or not you have aqueducts. Markets were in ancient history, one of these, along with Temples and Palaces.
Again, i think we'd get a midturn thing where there are grumbles from the guilds and/or urban poor and/or city heads about needing more resources, but i dont think they'll just go over on forests, not with 8 RA. Biggest concern i have would be guilds wanting to hijack an action for an ironworks, and in that case the priests would use their faction power to stop it if at all possible. So basically we should make sure RA and priest faction power are both high
Reminder that this is a sustainable forest rating. Theres a shitload of trees out there, ONLY the priests think that cutting past a certain amount is a problem.
And well...what do you think people will do if the amount of legal charcoal isn't up to market demand?
Crime takes over if the government blocks it. We can't actually police illegal logging in a practical manner, the processed charcoal is indistinguishable from any other charcoal.
We had 3.
Word of AN was laughter when we told him that we didn't need nearly that much forest.
This was when the only thing using that much fuel was baths, but before we had kilns(so consumption was half that of today, but production was half that of today).
Because Ironworks takes a lot of skilled people to run. That is what the tech cost in Expand Economy comes from, after all. The policies are not stupid; if they see Ironworks making our action more top-heavy instead of better, they won't do it barring good reason.
The policies are not stupid, but Word of AN is that additional ironworks has benefits beyond just boosting Econ Expansion.
Historically, when the Song Dynasty went ironworks, they built them EVERYWHERE. Cities of any decent size got big ones. Then once iron made smaller smelters cheap enough(since the cost of smelter production was also greatly reduced by the spread of cheap iron parts allowing for the wood and brick elements to be made and assembled cheaply), they put those into smaller towns as well, which made it practical to exploit lower quality iron ores.
Historically, when Rome went ironworks, they built them everywhere, stopping only when they literally ran out of fuel locally and had to go find more.
The policies see that we have a lot of Tech we aren't using. So they put it to use.
Infrastructure provides actions. If they're that valuable, you should worship it and be overjoyed to take forestry along with it so it's sustainable. But no, actions are not as valuable as you say, because they're constantly constrained by stats. Insisting on a set and forget passive policy is myopic and lazy in my opinion. We shouldn't shy away from some give and take if it's properly rewarded, such as by effectively multiplying our actions by building infrastructure for us. Also, stats can lead us to a GA where we can effectively buy actions. They're simply too interrelated to dismiss stats in this way.
It'd be nice to take your support package, but no, it isn't mandatory.
No, infrastructure eats actions.
It forces us to take actions(yes, even kilns, they're hardly cheap, just fast) to support the policy.
Take any given Megaproject. They eat actions too. They force us to keep paying actions, usually expensive actions, and that's for as long as they last.
While the benefits are absolutely worth it, just like Megaprojects they eat up our tactical flexibility to respond to crisis because they eat up stats and actions.
So look at our action types:
-Crown Main action - Powerful and flexible. Always beneficial
-Crown Secondary - Weak but flexible. Always beneficial.
-Guild Main - Powerful but inflexible. Can be detrimental, because they always eat at least 2 Econ and often eat expansions too.
-Province Law Main - Powerful but rigid. Usually not detrimental because policy locks it to something we want. We can control this via policy, but right now it's more or less stuck on Balanced to pay for our expenses.
-Province Secondary - Weak and uncontrollable. Can be rarely detrimental. We can control this via policy, but right now it's more or less stuck on Balanced, which means they do whatever the factions think are cool.
So under this, Infrastructure itself produces a Powerful but Uncontrollable action, which consumes our Flexible actions to compensate for. Whats important is that while we gain more we spend more effort cleaning up after the policy.
Which isn't that big a problem at present, but adding more will definitely make it so.
...Really? You dont think we have bad relations with anyone? Let's see here...
-Trelli: We fought a long-ish and bitter war with them where they had to concede, taking away large amounts of territory from them and spitting on the previous reputation of both the games in particular and us in the process. Then our mercs helped push them out of the rest of their eastern holdings, at which point we helped negotiate for a peace that quite coincidentally left them without any of that land AND with the strait forced open for free. Depending on if they still get trade benefit from the strait, we're either still a valuable source of trade power for them, or else we're trashing their trade power. In the former, we're probably safe from attack unless we're really vulnerable, but in the latter case they're just waiting for a chance to succeed.
-Khemetri: Broke off relations centuries ago after we, from their perspective, went crazy and started an aggressive war against our friends and fellow Games contestant, for a religious reason that would point us at them as well. We've got no clue what they think of us now, but they're the second biggest bunch on the block, and we gave up our benefit of "keeping a constant dialogue and history of friendship with the biggest threat", so its quite likely they're at best back to "neutral", which is bad when it comes to a polity that is so powerful and as history shows willing to declare war when their colonies encroach on our land.
-Mountain Horse: We took most of their empire and reduced them to shattered remnants that had to fight and take in nomads to form what they are now, and we've already been told that basically the only reason they haven't attacked is fear of another God Fist...which almost certainly comes along with a taste of "is pissed at us for the God Fist". Also we're competing with them on fine pottery, which is like the one thing we hadn't previously dominated other than slaves and bronze.
-Western Ymaryn: From their perspective, we're the big bad government who wanted to stop them from doing whats right and proper for the People to do. We wanted to drive them from their rural roots into heartless and disgusting urban lives. When they had the gall to go fighting nomads for land, as is only proper for the People to do from their perspective, we shunned them and left them without support, while doing what we could to break the power of their families back home in favor of the urban powers. They also know that we know that they practice slavery and the like, and just how mad the priests get about that.
-Highland Kingdom: Haven't heard from them, but we still basically encircle and heavily threaten them. Even if we pledged to not fight them centuries ago, we've also shown a frankly disturbing tendency for "crazy" wars with the trelli war, so that can't help, and i'm sure Txolla is still expanding towards them all the time.
So that leaves...
-The storm wolves, who are at war with the Western Ymaryn and so probably getting annoyed at "the People" in general, and are also nomads and thus rather inclined to war anyway
-The random nomads, who we really can't have lasting relations with either way.
-the tin tribes, a minor power we haven't heard much from, but who i think we have good relations with?
-The Harmurri, who is currently our closest friend, letting us feel at least somewhat secure on one front. They're not likely to attack even if they see a good opportunity to, for both political (we are an important protection from the MH) and diplomatic (we have good relations)
-Freehills, who is our second closest friend, again letting us feel secure on that front, though i dont think ties are good enough to prevent them from attacking if we seem weak.
Our diplomatic situation frankly sucks. Moving more civs into the "wont attack without a good reason" pile would be great, as would having more possible allies. Even just knowing where the HK and Khemetri stand with us now would be useful.
Tin Tribes don't actually LIKE us that much. They are slavers who trade heavily with the Trelli.
We've been sponsoring their weaker tribes to to stab their stronger tribes to cut down on slavery.
If we are in the Golden Age, we can't be complacent about our wealth income this time around, and should be working on building marketplaces so that when it does pop, we won't have trouble. Or for that matter, completing the Triangle or the Dam megaproject will work too.
If we're in a Golden Age I'd like to learn the lesson from the last one: Screw keeping the Golden Age running for a long time or maintaining multiple maxed stats to roll on.
Integration and Influence makes keeping Golden Ages difficult, but we need those more than we need the Age.
I'm pretty sure the Guilds panic immediately, we may not lose Stability if we manage to increase our Wealth above 10 by the end of the turn. That is not a sure thing, though. We might lose the Stability and then immediately regain it, but that would put off our Golden Age by at least another turn.
Reminder on Guild Panic mechanics:
-Triggered at Wealth below 2
-Have 1 turn to get Wealth above 5 to avoid Stability loss.
-Have 1 turn to get Wealth above 10 to gain Stability.
However, we've never been at Negative wealth before, and the previous explanation for how negative wealth works(that it'd force conversion of Econ and Diplomacy into Wealth) was before switching to currency.
We are apparently getting two passive policies to use next turn, so I think we're going to be fine keeping both Infrastructure passives.
I think we should spring for City Support and Diplomacy. Diplomacy because as I mentioned earlier, we have a massive intel problem, and City Support because it makes managing cities less of a headache. I also really want to see some kind of reform in how we manage our cities, because Panem doesn't strike me as sustainable or desirable.
Why are we adding a second Vassal Support policy?
And while I think skullduggery is great, doing it before diplomacy is kinda puting the cart before the horse.
-City Support - Direct benefits, immediately makes next turn easier and will continue to do so as long as cities are thirsty(which they always are)
-Diplomacy - I'd actually put this a little lower, since the Games cover it narratively(especially if we build marketplaces in Redshore for them too) by inviting international groups. However, since to invite someone successfully requires at least neutral diplomatic relations with them, I see no issue with this.
-Skulduggery - We do have passive Diplomacy income we aren't using. Converting it to Intrigue is to our benefit.
-Second Vassal Support - I'm of the opinion that a second Vassal Support at this point wouldn't help much until we downsize our landed subordinates because it's divided across every subordinate. We are better off exploring more passives.
--A passive generates very very approximately(some of them are pending revision due to tech transition, some bury it in hidden stats) about half a secondary a turn, which according to Support Subordinate is +0.5 Loyalty to one subordinate.
--Landed Subordinates: Heaven's Hawks, Western Wall, Gulvalley, Greenshore, Tinriver, Txolla, Thunder Speakers, Thunder Horse, Amber Road.
--+0.5/9 Loyalty is not going to be relevant very soon. It's great for keeping Loyalty 4 at Loyalty 4, but decorative for Loyalty 2
That said it wouldn't HURT, so I'm perfectly okay with the next 2 passives being:
-City Support
-Vassal Support
Myranyn was most displeased with the reports coming out of the far west. His grand reforms had become something of a laughing-stock, given that the new Banner Company raised at his urgings had been absolutely ravaged by the pirate clans, leaving him in a rather poor position politically, given that he defanged the rural militias by promising that there would always be a core of professional warriors at the ready to pounce upon enemies in the period between the beginning of a conflict and the mustering of the levies, only for his vaunted companies to either be away on foreign ventures or losing badly. There were growing concerns and fearful whispers that with the militias so depleted and the Banner Companies far from the core, the enemies of the People would surely pounce. Given that there were dark rumours that the trade mission the Heaven's Horse had sent out to the east out of concern for gathering danger had been wiped out by the Mountain Horse...
Still, despite all of that, as king Myranyn knew very well the sort of power he now held. With a few words he could begin a mass levy and arming action, drawing upon the reserves of equipment stockpiled in palaces and fortifications to rapidly turn tens, possibly hundreds in the future, of thousands of men into warriors able to saturate a battlefield in bolts. Sadly, his peers didn't entirely agree, and there was already a major push in the council to begin freeing up funds to expand the Spiritbonded.
Myranyn Reforms Result: Mass Levy Active Policy
Mass Levy - While this policy is active, the sum of Econ + Wealth + (Sum of Ironworks Levels) x2 added to Temp Martial Score one combat phase after policy activated, but Expand Econ and most Wealth generating actions disabled while this policy active. Otherwise acts as the Offensive Policy
Patricians (5*) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Have Light cavalry at or above 3 within 1 turns. Success: Free equestrian tech Guild (6) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a Level 2 Ironworks within 2 turns. Success: Free random megaproject, no faction power increase
Traders (2*) - Objective: Build a silver or gold mine within 1 turns. Failure: -5 Wealth [0/2] Yeomen (2* {-3})- Objective: Have a new province within 3 turns. Success: Free Random Plant [Good] action [0/2] Priests (3)- Objective: Have maximum Econ within 2 turns. Success: Free Spiritual Value slot Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 3 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase These counters iterate at the next mid-turn. The numbers in brackets indicate the general faction strength.
Warning: The Patricians have decided that they are not failing their quest. They're proud like that, expect repeat performances.
Fortunately, that probably wouldn't be necessary. While the pirates clans had made laughingstocks of him through repeatedly handing embarrassing defeats to the Blood Rain Banner, Tinriver had basically devoured their land holdings, leaving them with no safe spaces to strike from along the coast. While some were certainly taking up the way of the bandit and raider, their ability to sea trade was over... of course their damned pirate 'king' had decided to go down swinging. Whether or not he had survived the battle was unknown - rumour had it he had and then went to sell his services to the Trelli in their conflicts to the south in the Saffron Isles - but he had crippled much of the remaining warships of the People. The Trelli were taking advantage of this by charging 'tolls' to protect shipping, and with no warships to contest them...
Technically they were providing an actual service, but it was enough that if Myranyn really wanted to he could declare war over it. It would be profoundly stupid until they had a navy once more, but the option was there for future kings. Of course, if they had a navy worth a damn the Trelli would surely back off anyway.
In other news, the new charcoal kilns in Redshore were causing quite the stir, in that they were disrupting the production of black soil regionally. The kilns had such a high demand for fuel that they were outcompeting the latrine pits for forest debris. While the city itself produced a considerable amount of black soil from all of its waste production, there was overall a subtle shift in attitudes locally. The kiln workers saw themselves as artisans and guildsmen, performing a skilled trade, and they loudly objected to in any way being compared to half-exiles. Somewhat similarly, while the urban leatherworkers were also an artisan guild, they were not appreciative of being mistaken for half-exiles - although the half-exiles did do the work of collecting all of the exceedingly unpleasant materials required for the curing process, so the comparison wasn't entirely unfair. Still, the issue was starting to bubble up, and as king Myranyn should probably make some sort of proclamation on it.
What to do about dirty artisans and half-exiles?
[] [Art] Do charcoalers and the like really need to be experts? (Efficient Charcoal Kilns become cheaper, no longer considered Guild actions, ???)
[] [Art] Ignore it (Black Soil production gains an additional Wealth cost)
[] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
You have many new cities online, choose five more passive policies
[] [Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
[] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [Policy] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[] [Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[] [Policy] Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
[] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
Myranyn had just about decided that he had his legacy set after decades of labour, when a most peculiar visitor arrived at the palace, escorted by border guards who had checked his credentials.
The Highlanders, of all people, had sent an envoy. It seemed the the insular kingdom had something of a problem that they were blaming on the People and demanding that something be done about it.
"Let me make sure I have this right," Myranyn said after hearing the issue at hand. "In the few trade caravans you share with us, the Harmurri, and the Khemetri, some Mylathads travelled back into your territory and began preaching. Only, your version of Crow is not just Creator but also King, and has much more authority and power among your conception of the divine than all your other gods and spirits put together, so when the Mylathads were talking about seeking Ultimate Truth, several of the converts among your people decided that your head of pantheon and the Truth were the same entity, to the point where they are proclaiming that there is only One God, One Truth. And your king was okay with because it enhanced his own power as your crown is closely tied to divine investment in the right to rule... right up until a splinter faction of these radicals decided that he was offering too many consolatory words towards the priests of other gods, and even began proclaiming that those who refuse to acknowledge their One God as the Only God are being mislead by charlatans and deceivers. And they are becoming increasingly vocal and unhinged in their beliefs and calling for violence. And your king has decided that this is our fault and is demanding some form of compensation or assistance to deal with the problem."
"That is correct," the Highland emissary stated.
"I will speak with my advisors," Myranyn said, gesturing for the emissary to leave the Great Hall while he conferred over this strange request.
"Their king must be stupidly desperate," the war chief said scoffingly.
The foreign advisor considered for a moment before he said, "Actually, it is possible that this is a probing mission. They want to know if we are eager to jump on their offer, or if we will decline. If we decline, that is a strong indicator that we are too militarily weak to offer proper aid and thus it is safe for them to pounce, while if we accept this could be the lead up to an ambush."
"That's... suspicious, even for you," Myranyn said of his advisor.
"The Highlanders are known for their intrigue, or at least they were, so they may have a better idea of our situation than we do theirs. We should be cautious," the man offers with a shrug.
The spirit chief strokes his white beard contemplatively for a moment before he says, "I am not liking the sound of these new fanatics, and I worry that if we simply leave them be they might filter into our own territory and cause trouble. Seeking the Truth is fine, but disrespecting the lesser spirits can only lead to devastation."
Thinking it over a bit more, the war chief says, "Freehills are about ready to end their contract for the Banner Companies, we could transfer their contract to the Highlanders to help take over... or..."
"Or...?" Myranyn asked.
"Well, even if they know we are a bit weak in standing warriors, they probably can't appreciate what we have in the armouries. We could send over aid, and then just keep sending aid, until we've basically occupied their territory for them, and even if they have surprises in store for us they would be powerless to resist the raw numbers," the advisor explained.
"Devious. I like. Probably not going to do it, but I like that sort of thinking," Myranyn said while mentally making a note to get the man transferred somewhere with less authority.
The Highlands Problem
[] [HK] Ignore them
[] [HK] Offer tribute to patch over the issue and improve their king's standing (Targeted Sec Salt Gift)
[] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[] [HK] Gold only
-[] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
[] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[] [HK] No policy change
-[] [HK] Offensive Policy
-[] [HK] Mass Levy
The problem is death by a thousand cuts. Skullduggery without international diplomacy will let us notice problems internally, but we will be blind internationally. So, we should pair it with a diplomacy policy so that we don't have blindspots.
This is why I favor diplomacy and skullduggery combo. We'll have vassal, skullduggery, and diplomacy policies all working to address their specific area of concerns.
On other policies, if we're building infrastructure that consume a forest every turn, we should at least have two forest policies that give us a sustainable forest policy, otherwise we will be forced to fit Expand Forest somewhere in our action list at the most inconvenient time.
Still better than not doing it. We've usually been better off making a plan and tossing half of it as things change than leaping in screaming for gut responses(usually for war matters)
But yeah, Black Soil probably would make the half exile problem worse, potentially bringing it to our attention where we get to choose between "moral choice that set society on fire" and "realpolitik choice that makes it more okay to shit on the have-nots"
If true, though, it's not the crisis gated behind the academy, but the solution - so building the academy sooner rather than later is something of a priority.
Yeah, but if we're interested in long term, we have more effective options than another Vassal Support. Integrating Txolla and the canal, for one.
I just don't think having two vs having one is going to make a huge difference. Our subordinate problems are precipitated by problems Vassal Support doesn't solve. We have difficulty projecting power, we have difficulty with connectivity, and we've been lax on recalcitrant subordinates before. Those are why we have Loyalty issues, and Vassal Support doesn't really address that.
If we didn't already have a Vassal Support, I'd be supportive, but I think we're going to see diminishing returns.
Myranyn Reforms Result: Mass Levy Active Policy
Mass Levy - While this policy is active, the sum of Econ + Wealth + (Sum of Ironworks Levels) x2 added to Temp Martial Score one combat phase after policy activated, but Expand Econ and most Wealth generating actions disabled while this policy active. Otherwise acts as the Offensive Policy
Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 3 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Gold only
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
So, I doubled checked, and you have four more passive policies to pick from. Three more cities came online, and Redshore is now definitely a Level 2 city, so it provides another policy.
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
Still better than not doing it. We've usually been better off making a plan and tossing half of it as things change than leaping in screaming for gut responses(usually for war matters)
And as we saw this turn, thats pretty important too. ANd if you mean on a stats level, we already have +4 diplo/turn, we can eat -2/turn if we took skullduggery first. Again, i'd prefer diplo first, but compromise is how things go 
