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- United States
Huh, I didn't know that our refund was that high.
I though we only refunded like max 2 tech a turn.
Is there somewhere on the front page to see this stuff?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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I though we only refunded like max 2 tech a turn.
Is there somewhere on the front page to see this stuff?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
Just on the stat sheet, but like, when Primal and Abby did the math we end up with like +5 Tech Refund in this particular turn.
In fact Tech is going to be steadily rising over the coming turns all by itself because the [+1-1] gives a refund of (+1) continuously. This is the same principle that makes it so hard to lose Mysticism for us.
Additionally every action that spends Tech will give at least +1 Tech refund. So we could conceivably take actions that spend Tech in our Main, 4 Secondaries, and both Guild Actions and get back +7 refund from those. Add on the Income refund and the max Tech refund we can have in any one turn is +8 at the moment.
Our best bet for some sort of tech improvements is more Arsenals. Other than that, it is possible but not especially likely for us to gain some sort of tech improvement from either Lvl2 Ironworks, or from an Academy. I wouldn't hold out much hope for either of those.
Other than that? Mysticism and Culture are often maxed, and they overflow to tech, so gains to either of those can be transmuted into tech gains relatively easily. We can gain another point of Mysticism income by building a Lvl3 Temple (which costs 12 progress, so probably not happening particularly soon). We can get more points of Culture income by changing our cities to Free Cities, or by getting more True Cities. I advocate for doing the former if we can; it has been an excellent use of subordinate slots so far.
We refund 1 per action.
That's... still going to be an issue, once we're getting a second or more Ironworks.
We do have one guaranteed source of tech income that we could do more of; if it starts being too painful to get tech via action, we can set passive policies for the income.
It's an inefficient use of policies, but if the other choice is inefficient use of actions...
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
Honestly our best source of tech is the passive income we have for culture and mysticism, if you ask me 
Also, depending on how exactly a main expand econ counts for refunds, we might be losing tech permanently even with just one. The action list only lists secondary costs, which suggests that a "main" is technically 2 separate secondaries for the purpose of refunds--that is, right now a main expand econ would cost 1 tech twice, for a total of -2 tech but also a refund of (+2). However, the action is still listed as a singular main, so its just as logical that it would count as a single action for refunds--that is, right now a main expand econ would cost 2 tech once, for a total of -2 tech but only a refund of (+1).
Also, depending on how exactly a main expand econ counts for refunds, we might be losing tech permanently even with just one. The action list only lists secondary costs, which suggests that a "main" is technically 2 separate secondaries for the purpose of refunds--that is, right now a main expand econ would cost 1 tech twice, for a total of -2 tech but also a refund of (+2). However, the action is still listed as a singular main, so its just as logical that it would count as a single action for refunds--that is, right now a main expand econ would cost 2 tech once, for a total of -2 tech but only a refund of (+1).
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
There was some discussion earlier this week about exactly where our tech refund came from, and how to get more. I think that the conclusion was that it's either coming from our 3xArsenal annexes, or from the synergy between our Shrine, Library and Arsenal. It's possible that building an extra Arsenal and/or Shrine annex let our Governor's Palaces provide a Tech refund, which would pretty much remove the threat of Tech shortages.
- Location
- USA
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Double Main Forest uses 6, I believe?
Then we should go for actions since those can build narrative effects to improve themselves while our efficient passive policies chug along at our infrastructure and give us a set of stable, resilient, and well protected cities?
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Yeah.
We can deal with having one Ironworks trivially. It costs zero tech in total, just "borrowing" it when we take Expand Economy actions and giving it back later. Not really a concern.
We can deal with having two Ironworks reasonably well. We aren't likely to do more than ~4 Expand Econ actions a turn (remember, at this point that is 6 econ per action; even with Cities eating say 9 econ past what we get in taxes, that would still leave ~15 econ/turn). At that rate, we would be losing 4 Tech per turn - but we get one from econ, and Culture/Mysticism flows into it, and generally we can take a support Artisans action when in a bind.
Having three Ironworks would make us somewhat brittle. I think we want to use at least 3 Expand Econ actions on average, and those three actions would cost a total of 3*2 = 6 econ a turn, AFTER our rebates. After our income, that still leaves 5. This means that unless Culture+Mysticism is full, we basically need to "lock" our Guild action into Support Artisans, or risk running down our reserves of Tech.
Having four or more Ironworks would make us VERY brittle. After rebates and income, we would need to generate another 8 Tech a turn somehow. If we have overflow from Mysticism and Culture, we can handle it. If we don't... well. THen things become very tricky.
Personally, I would object to building any Ironworks past the second at most. One is enough for most of our gains, and a second helps our strategic flexibility by letting us move stats from the bottom of the overflow chart straight to the top, but after that we start getting Tech problems, and I'd really prefer to have our main stat-generating action handicapped because we can't generate the resource it needs.
Expand Forest actions don't actually use LTE. They just "borrow" it; only to pay us back later with interest. Pay 3 LTE now, get 4 LTE next turn.
Can we afford to give out that LTE? Well, it depends on what we do, but I don't see why not. The only reason we care about LTE like that in the short-term is if we want to max our Econ, and we won't need to do that. All we really need to do is leave space for our policies to do an Expand Econ (which is to say, 10 points from cap), and we are going to get that from a combination of our own spending with the ~5 points of upkeep our cities should be eating by then.
Anyways, worst it will do it cause our Balanced Policies to go for Internal Reorg or Build Mills. And you know, I'm fine with that.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
At that point we'd be producing 7 infrastructure progress a turn, so theoretically...if our policies decided to do so, that is, which is...rather unlikely imo? They're much more likely to focus on baths, aqueducts, and gov palaces, imo. And honestly, i dont think we want them just building ironworks. Like...i'm honestly really confused by the seeming push for a bunch of ironworks? They don't improve the stat generation overall of the expand econ action, unless we get more tech refunds, and making it give more econ at the expense of tech isn't the most useful thing...it'd be useful in mid-turn reactions where we need to build econ up in a single action, assuming we have the tech to spare, but otherwise its not that great? Like, we'll already be at +12 econ, -12 EE, -4 Tech for a main after we build the second, and that seems like enough boosting of the action to me... Far rather spend the infrastructure progress and forest slots on, say, making all our cities have baths, personally.
Minor thing, but we know its not from having 3x arsenal annexes, since we had the refund before that
The real question is whether its from having 2x arsenal annex, or from the synergy, or potentially (but imo very unlikely) from having a single arsenal, since we gained all three of those at once. I am still somewhat skeptical of veekie's theory for the gov palaces, specifically because "and then we built an extra shrine and all GPs gave a refund" seems too powerful to me, but i'm certainly in favor of building a second shrine annex, yes Again, this is assuming that the refund is handled on a per-secondary basis, which i dont think we've got confirmation from AN on, and definitely requires confirmation imo, since thats not the case with most actions.
- Location
- USA
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Alright, I was a little worried about our cities forming and lowering our centralization limit, but we're probably about to take a -2 PSN action, and it'll be fairly obvious if we need to hold off on the forests due to city formation.
I'd rather have inefficient passives than lock up our actions, yeah. Especially with the precedent set that voters will crash our civilization's economy over possible shinies.
Well, unless we can get another tech refund from somewhere. One more Ironworks per tech refund seems practical.
Historically, that's the way Build Infrastructure taken as a main worked, so it'll probably be the same for Expand Economy.
We are doing it to fulfill the guild quest for a megaproject reward, and policies like to complete quests.
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It's purely for the quest at this point. This turn they took Block Housing for us, which I assume was for the quest. I think it's a pretty decent chance that they'll take Ironworks this turn if we don't. If the thread is willing to trust in this, it's a nice way of saving actions and stats.
Well, you obviously have my vote, and I'd encourage anyone who wants more forests to support such an action, regardless of their feelings on forestry policies.
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*mutter* watchtowers....roads...*mutter*
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
Ahh, true--i knew there was something of the sorts that applied but i couldn't think of it and honestly i didn't really care to put too much effort into looking through the action list or the past updates to jumpstart my memory--been too interested in my reading the last couple hours
Still not 100% sure on it, but definitely makes it more likely, imo Ahh, i'd assumed the discussion was for ironworks past the second, nevermind then. And honestly even if we could be sure the policies would take the lv 2 ironworks, i'd personally want to do it ourselves to free up the policies to get started on more baths or the like, assuming we can spare the action.
Really?
I'm surprised to hear that. In my mind, Baths are basically the slow, boring maintenance that our policies have to do so we don't suddenly explode into a ball of plague. I can't say that I'm particularly enthusiastic about them going back to work on this.Now, if we are very, very lucky? Our provinces might actually build a saltern, and get us our 1 point of wealth income back.
Not counting on it though. I've been burned too many times already.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
Oh yeah, if they'd do that that'd be even better. But i find it much more likely that, without a quest or other imperative forcing the policies' metaphorical hands, they'll probably just do more baths and the like. And avoiding "exploding into a ball of plague" as you put it is a pretty big priority for me, personallyReally?
Now, if we are very, very lucky? Our provinces might actually build a saltern, and get us our 1 point of wealth income back.
Not counting on it though. I've been burned too many times already.
Plus, an extra LTE, as well as boosting the threshold of our cities assuming its in a non-free city, is decently useful.That's fair. We do have quite the backlog of stuff to build, after all. Personally, I like the idea of not having to pay for stuff we're not particularly inclined to build for their own sake though, and it only delays things one turn in the end.
Like you say, it'll come down to actions. Not taking Ironworks would free us up to do useful stuff like an additional Kiln, or Plant Cotton action. Wealth is kind low at the moment, after all.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think the Ymaryn have surnames.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Illinois
Oh shit, what did the Highlanders do?
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- Location
- United States
If I recall correctly the Ymaryn take on their mothers surnames, but AN mentioned that forever ago so that may no longer be true.