- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
hmm. Maybe there's a connection? Black soil gets used pretty regularly in Ymaryn forestry, right?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
hmm. Maybe there's a connection? Black soil gets used pretty regularly in Ymaryn forestry, right?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
ALL the time.
I shit you not the Black Soil layer in Valleyhome last we checked about a thousand years ago was up to a grown man's thigh. Now it's probably a man deep.
There is a connection, in the sense that if we Terraform the Northern Steppe, we will be able to Forest it much more easily. (Though as a tangent even this runs into issues of not enough water, which are only solved by the Triangle Canal)
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
I think we've used it with Personal Stewards. At least, I'm pretty sure that was upgraded too.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Wouldn't terraforming entail foresting and black soil-ing simultaneously? I assumed that the Terraform action would basically be transforming the steppes into the kinds of forested environments that make up core Ymaryn territory.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from TradingPost to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Build Roads
[X] [Secondary] Sailing Mission
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Build Porcelain Works
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Build Roads
[X] [Secondary] Sailing Mission
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Build Porcelain Works
I'd take up the cause, but the exact kind of people who want more trees make it pretty difficult. Nobody is going to vote for Expand Forest actions when we have forest policies set up, but if you suggest using actions instead then everyone comes out of the woodwork to say it's impossible to get the thread to take Expand Forest actions. Never mind the fact that we have Kilns now and regularly use them, or that we use PSN on trees pretty regularly unless it's an emergency like last turn. If people spent half the time arguing for Expand Forests as they did for not switching off Forestry, we'd probably have forested the whole world by now.
grumble grumble grumble...
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
Not quite, its more taking the Steppe which is poor for our kind of farming and making it far far more productive with Black Soil(This is not to say that the Steppe land is infertile, far from it, main problem is water retention). Just on an insane scale.
Or at least that's how I understand it.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
mhm. I guess that interpretation is a little less comprehensive than I was imagining.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
welcome to PoCQ, where we have incomplete information and the dam doesn't get built.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah... its more the scale of the thing than what we are actually doing.
Oh as an aside, if we want to reveal to the Ymaryn the problems with their Half-Exile system? Build Roads until we hit about 75% and then do a Terraform action, probably through a GA.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I'm sure we'll get started on the Dam any day now!
Remind me exactly how the system works? I think I missed the details of that somewhere.
- Location
- Hell
That is describing me just a week ago, you are preaching to the choir here.
Figure out a way to make it viable, convince people that the policy is better used on other things etc.
I still think that we are going to want to have at least one passive forest policy for the forseeable future. I don't think we want a second or third forest policy before we get more infrastructure (3+), defense (2+), vassal loyalty (2+), and intrigue(1+) and have done a few more efficient charcoal kiln actions.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ummm....
*brain fails completely*
Le sigh. I'm gonna have to go back and look at the really old updates to tell you, as well as some of the stuff AN has said to give you a really detailed response.
Suffice to say in a basic sense the Half-Exile system is a system of punishment and redemption first, or at least it is supposed to be.
Whenever someone makes a serious enough crime or pisses off their local patrician/village alderman too hard they can be deemed "spiritually unclean" and then separated from those who are not half-exile. They are then provided with food and shelter sufficient to survive and access to at least one priest and are put to work on unclean tasks like making Black Soil or handling the dead(the half exiles are very tied up in our death taboo). When their overseeing priest deems them to be cleansed of their sins they are released from their status of half exlie and return to normal society.
A couple of big points. It is not inheritable parent to child. It has no defined term limits, you are released when the local priests say you are. Annnd a couple of other things I am forgetting.
Honestly, I may try to go for it again pretty soon. I've seen a few of the active players expressing dissatisfaction with them recently, so if things continue to stabilize around us, then I'll broach the topic again. Who knows, maybe after a few more PSN actions and continued Kiln actions, people will be ready to accept that the thread does in fact still like trees and is capable of voting for them.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I see... So, conceivably if we went really hard with roads and Black Soil and stuff, we'd end up straining our penal system to the point that we run low on half-exile labor to perform the unpleasant work that our society depends on?
- Location
- Hell
Meh
Better Tally
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4656 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 116382-116541]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
[1] Build Docks [Guild]
[1] More Warships
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Crisis
[35][Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[1][Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[24][Main] Proclaim Glory
[7][Main] Enforce Justice
[2][Main] Survey Lands
[2][Main] War Mission: Pirate Clans
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[28][Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[21][Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[17][Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[16][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[14][Secondary] Block Housing- Redshore
[9][Secondary] Build Roads
[6][Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[6][Secondary] Sailing Mission
[6][Secondary] Survey Lands
[4][Secondary] War Mission (Pirates)
[3][Secondary] Invite to Games - Trelli
[3][Secondary] Build Mills
[2][Secondary] Invite to Games - Khemetri
[2][Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[2][Secondary] More Spiritbonded
[1][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[1][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[1][Secondary] Expand Forests
[1][Secondary] Black Soil
[1][Secondary] More Warships
[1][Secondary] Trade Mission: Khemetri
[1][Secondary] Integrate Colony: Gulvalley
[1][Secondary] Distribute Land
[1][Secondary] Build Roads x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild
[29][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[27][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
[1][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[1][Guild] Build More Warships
[1][Guild] Charcoal Kilns
[1][Guild] Plant Poppies
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Main
[2][Guild Main] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[2][Guild Main] More Warships
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sec
[1][Sec] Survey Lands
[1][Sec] Ironworks - Redshore
[1][Sec] Proclaim Glory
[1][Sec] Study Health
Total No. of Voters: 42
Better Tally
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4656 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 116382-116541]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
[1] Build Docks [Guild]
[1] More Warships
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Crisis
[35][Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[1][Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[24][Main] Proclaim Glory
[7][Main] Enforce Justice
[2][Main] Survey Lands
[2][Main] War Mission: Pirate Clans
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[28][Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[21][Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[17][Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[16][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[14][Secondary] Block Housing- Redshore
[9][Secondary] Build Roads
[6][Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[6][Secondary] Sailing Mission
[6][Secondary] Survey Lands
[4][Secondary] War Mission (Pirates)
[3][Secondary] Invite to Games - Trelli
[3][Secondary] Build Mills
[2][Secondary] Invite to Games - Khemetri
[2][Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[2][Secondary] More Spiritbonded
[1][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[1][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[1][Secondary] Expand Forests
[1][Secondary] Black Soil
[1][Secondary] More Warships
[1][Secondary] Trade Mission: Khemetri
[1][Secondary] Integrate Colony: Gulvalley
[1][Secondary] Distribute Land
[1][Secondary] Build Roads x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild
[29][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[27][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
[1][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[1][Guild] Build More Warships
[1][Guild] Charcoal Kilns
[1][Guild] Plant Poppies
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Main
[2][Guild Main] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[2][Guild Main] More Warships
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Sec
[1][Sec] Survey Lands
[1][Sec] Ironworks - Redshore
[1][Sec] Proclaim Glory
[1][Sec] Study Health
Total No. of Voters: 42
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Basically that's exactly it.
If we take a lot of black soil actions, we obviously need more half-exiles to do it, so local patricians have more and more and more pressure on them to just start press-ganging people. Obviously this is not good without someone being able to give oversight and catching this.
For that you need roads. Once roads happen people can travel around and realize if this is going on.
More than that, this is not the only problem. There are discrepancies in the practice from core out to peripheries. It gets worse in the peripheries and is decently close to the ideal in the core. This is fixed by building roads and giving the opportunity for people to go "Hey hold up that's not how we do it."
It is also helped by priests since priests, mostly, help with coordinating how this works and if you can cut out the current issue of most local priests being taken from the family of the local patrician you can fix unfair sentencing. (This has changed a bit with Mylathadysm)
Basically make it noticeable and us players will be able to reform some pieces.
Water provision actually. The steppe soil is mainly grass based biomass decaying in place, so it's actually quite absorbent.
The problem is there's just plain too little rain to make it work, and also that for the same reason, simply boosting irrigation may actually salinize the soil because the deeper salts in the soil have never encountered significant water before, while the lack of large vegetation increases evaporation via unbroken wind and sun.
Thus, terraforming the Steppes is first about growing windbreaks( fast growing bushes, shrubs, etc), second bringing water reservoirs, and third about bringing trees to protect the reservoirs and boost rainfall.
The hard part is the water.
We need 2 Forest policies for every 3 Infrastructure policies. As we've seen, Extended projects tend to be rather hungry for fuel.
- Location
- Australia
Thank you.
[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Block Housing (Redshore)
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks (Redshore)
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Block Housing (Redshore)
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks (Redshore)
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2
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Okay, to expand further upon it:
-Half exile grew out of prehistoric plague quarantine practices. The people in quarantine who aren't visibly infected are given a plot of land to work away from the rest of the comunity so if they are contagious nobody gets hit.
--When we first encountered Smallpox, to avoid developing xenophobia, we directed the blame onto disturbing the dead/handling rot. While it's not really the fault of cleanliness, it did help a lot with our other social practices, which ended up giving us a lower level of disease than comparable population densities(imagine if you will, our cities except people aren't obsessively focused on staying clean, developing expensive infrastructure for the sole purpose of washing the unwashed masses).
-When crime started showing up, we needed a punishment below full Exile/Execution, yet society was simply not developed enough to feed criminals for nothing in a penal system(modern penal systems evolved out of incarceration for political prisoners who would have been too dangerous to execute for fear of backlash).
--Thus the Half-exile system, where criminals are considered spiritually tainted and quarantined in much the same way, but assigned corrective labor. As they were already tainted, it was reasoned that this was for the good of the community that the people at risk take more risks, handling corpses and all that.
--Criminals were assigned for a set period of half-exileness, depending on the crime, and released afterwards
-This worked out until we discovered Black Soil while fighting the Tree Blight. This was a job that REQUIRED a certain minimum percentage of the population handling the rubbish and human waste of basically the rest of the population. There was a brief phase where the demand rose to the point that we put EVERYONE on literal shit duty rotation, which led to the early discovery of milling. Then the problem 'went away'.
--We assumed this was because the mills reduced the work needed to crush the ashes. But in reality what happened was that our Harmony and Stewards social traits made it easy to trump up charges, as being disruptive or wasting resources were minor crimes which could see you made half exile for like a week or a month tops.
--This provided a steady supply of teenagers being teenagers, migrants unknowingly breaking the laws, and generally all the brawling and whatnot, filling in the half-exile ranks.
-When we ran into corruption, then, some of our Patricians realized something: You COULD just keep accusing people that nobody else likes of minor crimes, and send them into half exiles to avoid your precious children getting stuck with the job, nobody would care! This also covered for simply not punishing the well connected, the crime rate remains constant, so it never really registered higher up.
-Then as our connectivity stretched thin, increasingly the priests are local priests, taught by their relatives, rather than priests being trained and taught as standard in Sacred Forest. It is then a small step to make it so that repeat criminals, instead of being freed and then accused again, are simply up for the priest to review if they can go on parole. And the priest has reason NOT to pass review, so they will pick on minor disruptive elements to justify spending another week or month in the job.
-At this point, what was supposed to be a primarily temporary sentence with permanent half exile being for heinous crimes not amounting to execution, had become a primarily permanent sentence with hope of parole. This led to several consequences.
--The half exiles, being permanent, tended to have children with other half exiles. These children have no connections, their parents lack useful skills, and they have been taught from childhood that the world is out to get them.
---So they hit their teens, act out, and get slammed with a heavy (theoretically) deterrent sentence, validating their worldview, so that they will vandalize, act out and generally take a "fuck you" perspective, which would flag them as lifetime offenders who keep getting hauled back in, forming a hereditary half exile class.
----And before anyone asks, taking their children away to be raised by the priests and prevent the vicious cycle would probably push them over the edge and go lynch some people.
We actually made a bit of a pushback after developing a sewage system, which dramatically cut the number of half exiles needed for urban waste disposal...but even in the modern day shitty jobs will be needed and nobody wants to root for them when that means THEY have to do said shitty job.
You can't even pay them unpleasantness/hazard pay, these jobs produce no net wealth and too many hands are needed for a sufficient pay package to entice them.
We'd never run low on half-exile labor, there's always more and more trivial crimes.
But roads aren't half exile work. They're a skilled labor.