Of course. The problem is, is that they don't have the long view.

With that combo of Free City + Hueg Walls you only need one troublesome little prick to complicate things, for example by asking himself "Hey I have these enormous walls and this great army. Why am I not king of my own country again?".

Like this the same kinda thing as the Armoury Purse Idea of Freehills inspiring our Patricians to ask for streamlining by Distribute Land. That one can back fire in so many interesting ways.
Fair enough.

But the way I see it, either we do all the reforms, or skip some. If we do all of them we are committing to this either way. If we skip some, I'd rather skip the walls than the Free City.



Alternatively. If the reforms allow it, I'd be interested in putting the walls around Valleyhome. After all, if the guy in charge there thinks "Hey I have these enormous walls and this great army. Why am I not king of my own country again?", he can follow that up with going "oh wait, I am."
 
My preference is the true city that the reforms keep asking us about - Blackmouth.

I do want to make Blackmouth a Free City at some point, but I'm not sure if right now is a good idea. I looked back at Reforms 1 and Reforms 2; turn Blackmouth into a Free City was actually dropped as a condition to advance the reforms. I'm not sure if this is intended; after all, we didn't get the option to Plant Poppies in order to boost trade in Reforms 1.

I'd rather give Blackmouth the Colossal Wall reform before we go so far as to make it a Free City. There will likely be issues later on if they have Colossal Walls, but that's simply going to be a consequences of going all in on defenses and urban armies.

Alternatively. If the reforms allow it, I'd be interested in putting the walls around Valleyhome. After all, if the guy in charge there thinks "Hey I have these enormous walls and this great army. Why am I not king of my own country again?", he can follow that up with going "oh wait, I am."

Valleyhome is too central. The reason that it's suggesting Blackmouth is because that's a very good location in order to respond to attacks from Nomads or the Storm Wolves. Given it's on the Yllthon Mor, the army can quickly be sent to anywhere in the west. I assume that if we had cored the Thunder Speakers and had a True City there, it would be just as valid a target as Blackmouth is.

Our defense strategy is basically to fight to the death over our periphery. Since PSN punishes retreat and giving up land so much, that's the only thing we can do in order to avoid Stability death spiral. As such, that means that our military command posts will need to be located on our frontiers.
 
Fair enough.

But the way I see it, either we do all the reforms, or skip some. If we do all of them we are committing to this either way. If we skip some, I'd rather skip the walls than the Free City.



Alternatively. If the reforms allow it, I'd be interested in putting the walls around Valleyhome. After all, if the guy in charge there thinks "Hey I have these enormous walls and this great army. Why am I not king of my own country again?", he can follow that up with going "oh wait, I am."
There's really no point in putting Colossal Walls around Valleyhome, since if it ever gets to the point where Valleyhome is getting sieged we've likely exploded from Stability Spirals through land loss.

Forting up our periphery cities let's us push back opponents before they can really start to contest our lands, letting us avoid the stability spirals and giving us hardpoints where the enemy will have to wait and siege us out before advancing, once again slowing down the land loss.
 
I do want to make Blackmouth a Free City at some point, but I'm not sure if right now is a good idea. I looked back at Reforms 1 and Reforms 2; turn Blackmouth into a Free City was actually dropped as a condition to advance the reforms. I'm not sure if this is intended; after all, we didn't get the option to Plant Poppies in order to boost trade in Reforms 1.
Maybe you are right. I suppose I wouldn't be too distraught if we subbed that out for something else; of everything in that plan it is probably the least important piece.
 
Fair enough.

But the way I see it, either we do all the reforms, or skip some. If we do all of them we are committing to this either way. If we skip some, I'd rather skip the walls than the Free City.



Alternatively. If the reforms allow it, I'd be interested in putting the walls around Valleyhome. After all, if the guy in charge there thinks "Hey I have these enormous walls and this great army. Why am I not king of my own country again?", he can follow that up with going "oh wait, I am."
Oh that would be wonderful, but like Redium says, has issues with fast response which is the entire point of this part of the reforms.

Though it is intriguing that making Blackmouth a Free City was dropped as an option. It ma y no longer advance the reforms, in which case I see little reason to do it in the foreseeable future.

Not really?

The Free City will pay for the city itself, but it won't pay for the soldiers. The soldiers are still being bankrolled entirely by the King, it's just that the maintaining of the city and it's deployment walls will be done through a Central Command (the Mayor).

If the Mayor decides to declare themselves King, it will be hard to siege the town, but not impossible, and even if they can get the local garrison on their side, it's not as though they can project force far enough that they can't just get starved out.
There are some practical issues with this viewpoint, though it is still valid.
First up, who is going to be in control of making sure that each individual soldier actually receives their pay? The mayor of Blackmouth is a logical choice since he is right there. The thing is this gives him leverage over the soldiers, since in their view its him controlling their pay flow and not the king. There is really no way around this one, but it does open up later paths which are more concerning.

Next, the King certainly isn't bank rolling it out of his own coffers, and I don't think we have the concept of a national Treasury(sounds like a megaproject actually) so where does the money come from? Obviously the money comes from the King and the taxes and personal coffers of patricians, and also taxes on other classes which go into those coffers. Thus it makes sense to go "Okay, you lot up here around Blackmouth are in charge of paying for the army in Blackmouth". I mean it doesn't really make logistical sense otherwise, given the state of our roads. The way around this one is more roads and Govvie Palaces.

And last up, you raise a good point that they would likely have some difficulty protecting all of the surrounding farm land. The complication here is that it is not going to be easy to siege a coastal city with Colossal Walls. Those kinda need cannons to really properly siege. And well given Ymaryn obsession with food flow stability I doubt the place would have less than several years worth of food inside it, especially give that its a hard point designed to handle the scariest things our military commanders can imagine which is a Nomad Horde coming in and burning everything and tromping around with seemingly endless numbers.



So, the bad combo of the above things is a clever mayor of Blackmouth getting the local patricians in their pocket and then encouraging them to raise up whatever personal forces they can scrounge up. That coupled with the elite army in the walls sounds like a pretty massive pain in the ass, with about the only thing countering it being a strong naval force.
 
{S} EJ
{S} PG
{M} RoO
{S} Roads
{S} True City
{G} Charcoal Kiln
{G} ??? (Wealth gen action? Second kiln? Basically, fit to context)

I don't know if RoO is really necessary. We'd be better served by pushing PG to {M}. Sure, it costs 2 Econ and 6 Culture, but spending the Culture is a bit of a boon at the moment. We're going to top up the Mysticism-Tech-Culture Trio and immediately start overflowing back into Wealth. This wouldn't be a problem normally, but it's going to push us closer and closer to a Gilded Age. I don't want to do that by accident because most of our Guild actions give a lot of Wealth.

Didn't you want Ironworks and Invite to Games this turn?

How about:

{M} Proclaim Glory
{S} Enforce Justice
{S} Build Roads
{S} Invite to Games - Free Hill
{S} Ironworks
{G} Efficient Charcoal Kiln
{G} Build Porcelain Works

This also gives +3 Stab, so we should hit 2 at the lowest due to Second Sons costing 1. +2 Cent as well, but it's guaranteed to be safe since Roads will give us an increased connectivity cap and 7 isn't yellow so we don't have to worry about +1 bumping us over. Prestige helps, especially once we finally cross back over the threshold for 1 more Subordinate Slot.

Free Hills should likely agree to come to the Games since our Mercs did they a major solid. The only question is if it's worth it because that might get us dragged into proxy shenanigans with Trelli. Still, it's a +1 Diplo drip and increased Prestige.

We are very close to running out of Sustainable Forests; we're going to have to start planting some soon. As of this turn, we hit 27/27.5 before the Efficient Charcoal Kiln reduces it back to 24/27.5. We may be forced to use one of our Passive Policies as Forestry. It may not be an optimal choice, but gaining 1 Sustainable Forest slot will go a long way in order to help plant forests and thus stymie nomads.

Aside from Porcelain Works, our only other Guild choices are Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2 or Build Docks; everything else costs too much Wealth and would trigger a Guild panic. Our final Wealth would be high, but we'd go under 5. Any of the Plant ___ options consume too much LTE for me to really be comfortable taking them right now.
 
I'm expecting to have to dedicate at least a secondary war action to the pirate hero currently burning his way north towards Tinriver.
 
To all the turn planners, I respect your devotion, but has a turn plan ever gone straight into play? Usually, something comes up and we have to fix everything.

But assuming the negotiations go as planned, inviting Freehills to the games is a great pick idea. Boosts them, boosts us, good narrative, and helping an ally buff up.
 
To all the turn planners, I respect your devotion, but has a turn plan ever gone straight into play? Usually, something comes up and we have to fix everything.

But assuming the negotiations go as planned, inviting Freehills to the games is a great pick idea. Boosts them, boosts us, good narrative, and helping an ally buff up.
Generally speaking in recent times stuff has been tight enough that most of the details work out one way, though it isn't a major effort on most people's parts that I can see.

We are very close to running out of Sustainable Forests; we're going to have to start planting some soon. As of this turn, we hit 27/27.5 before the Efficient Charcoal Kiln reduces it back to 24/27.5. We may be forced to use one of our Passive Policies as Forestry. It may not be an optimal choice, but gaining 1 Sustainable Forest slot will go a long way in order to help plant forests and thus stymie nomads.
Ironworks actually takes 2(unless you were also counting Porcelain Kilns in which case yeah we hit 27). Also we should be getting to 28 either on the Main Turn or in the following Mid Turn.
 
We are very close to running out of Sustainable Forests; we're going to have to start planting some soon. As of this turn, we hit 27/27.5 before the Efficient Charcoal Kiln reduces it back to 24/27.5. We may be forced to use one of our Passive Policies as Forestry. It may not be an optimal choice, but gaining 1 Sustainable Forest slot will go a long way in order to help plant forests and thus stymie nomads.
Pretty sure we already have one set on it
*S: Change up to two Passive Policies (3/3) to one of the available ones listed below
Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
x1
Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
 
Ironworks actually takes 2. Also we should be getting to 28 either on the Main Turn or in the following Mid Turn.

Porcelain Works takes 1: that makes 3 used this turn.

I suspect that Jevon's Paradox is going to hit us extremely hard over the next few turns. We're moving towards an Urban and increasingly industrial civilization. Increased charcoal production will become necessary; every major empire hit that point eventually. The difference for us is that we simply don't have the option to not give a shit about the destruction of our forests. The other possible solution (coal mining) has very undesirable health and environmental effects. Our Priests would likely rage against the sins of coal as soon as they discover how nasty it is. The unfortunate thing is that if we ever came to depend on coal, we'd never be able to get off of it. We're simply too primitive in order to make a widespread change to another energy source.

Pretty sure we already have one set on it

I know, I just feel that 1 Forest/turn is going to be much more useful than 0.5/turn. The question is if that tops Skulduggery, Vassal Support, or Infrastructure.
 
I don't know if RoO is really necessary. We'd be better served by pushing PG to {M}. Sure, it costs 2 Econ and 6 Culture, but spending the Culture is a bit of a boon at the moment. We're going to top up the Mysticism-Tech-Culture Trio and immediately start overflowing back into Wealth. This wouldn't be a problem normally, but it's going to push us closer and closer to a Gilded Age. I don't want to do that by accident because most of our Guild actions give a lot of Wealth.
A Gilded age would be great news, assuming we resolve our crisis. We lose one stability, but that gets us a chance to buy a Megaproject track; super valuable.


I do think that we need the RoO, though. This is the plan for what to do if SS is still hitting us, which means we will be at -1; RoO has a good chance to get us up to max.
 
A Gilded age would be great news, assuming we resolve our crisis. We lose one stability, but that gets us a chance to buy a Megaproject track; super valuable.

I'm much less enthused about Gilded Ages given the fact that Western Ymaryn can vamp us for Econ every time we take a Stab hit. They're making Gilded Ages much less desirable and making it expensive to Kick megaprojects.

It would be nice if we could evolve one of our values in order to promote internal migration. After all, there's always available farm space and urban areas. It'd be nice if we could capture some of those displaced people before they buff up our Prodigal Son.

I do think that we need the RoO, though. This is the plan for what to do if SS is still hitting us, which means we will be at -1; RoO has a good chance to get us up to max.

I'm not sold on the benefits of hitting Max Stab versus sitting at 2. Max Stab would put us within striking distance of a Golden Age, but that's pointless if we don't finish the Second Sons crisis and just lose the possibility of entering a Golden Age due to that -1 Stab. With 2 Stab, however, we could likely max out our Stab during the Mid-Turn with a [React] action.
 
Porcelain Works takes 1: that makes 3 used this turn.

I suspect that Jevon's Paradox is going to hit us extremely hard over the next few turns. We're moving towards an Urban and increasingly industrial civilization. Increased charcoal production will become necessary; every major empire hit that point eventually. The difference for us is that we simply don't have the option to not give a shit about the destruction of our forests. The other possible solution (coal mining) has very undesirable health and environmental effects. Our Priests would likely rage against the sins of coal as soon as they discover how nasty it is. The unfortunate thing is that if we ever came to depend on coal, we'd never be able to get off of it. We're simply too primitive in order to make a widespread change to another energy source.
Note my edits. :p
I thought of that right after posting.

I suspect the same. I am also convinced that Yshuyn knew intuitively that Jevon's Paradox was a thing, and could see our ever increasing need for charcoal.
I'd really like to be back to at least 2. Cause taking Expand forest actions every other turn is going to be a pain in the ass.
 
Last edited:
Don't suppose we can scrounge up an action to invite the Highland Kingdom to the Games? We haven't heard a peep out off them for centuries and AN did say they were up to something. Inviting them would allow us to wildly speculate gain some information on what they might be doing.
 
To all the turn planners, I respect your devotion, but has a turn plan ever gone straight into play? Usually, something comes up and we have to fix everything.
Eh, something like 50% of the time they're either correct or mostly correct. When they're made after the midturn at least.

For example, right now at least 3 of our actions are basically guaranteed to be Stability gain actions. We can discuss which ones we'd prefer to use (since we may be hitting Cent cap once the cities come back online)
We certainly want at least one Charcoal Kilns, to keep ahead of our Ironworks forest usage. It is useful to make sure people are aware of this beforehand to prevent a random bandwagon from forming.
 
Looking over the Reform options.
Reforms I:
-Shiny:
--[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)

This is unrelated, a shiny thrown to the Patricians to shut up.

-Army administration(aka who gets to tell the armies where to go):
--[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)

Draw the army leadership from the City leadership since the armies are tied to the cities. Effectively this treats the City Mayors like Super Yeomen.
Empowers and differentiate Urban/Civil Patricians.
Mayors generally do not prefer war, but cities have been known to rebel before. Usually over taxes or laws to reduce their power.

--[Q] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)

Draw the army leadership from the career military. Effectively this is the beginnings of drawing up NCOs.
Empowers the Urban Poor in the long run.

--[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)

Draw the army leadership from the noble class, where cavalry commanders direct infantry masses.
Empowers the Patricians.

-Army Control(aka how do you keep the army from doing whatever the hell it wants):
--[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)

Anchor the army into city guards(which the Colossal walls represent as it has the martial cost for an integrated garrison), giving them peacetime employment and promotion routes.

--[] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)

Protect state access to military equipment, so the army can only be deployed when the state wants it deployed.

-Pay for the army:
--[] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)

Leverage tech advantage to make equipment for cheap.

-Create the army:
--[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)

Actually raise the army.

Reforms II:
-Shiny:
--[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)

They forgot about it already.

-Army administration(aka who gets to tell the armies where to go):
--[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)
--[Q] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
--[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)

Leadership approach has been locked in.


-Army Control(aka how do you keep the army from doing whatever the hell it wants):
--[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
--[Q] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)

Prediction: Prototype Deployment Organization will be gone next turn.

-Pay for the army:
--[] [HS] Increase Iron production to make things cheaper (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)

Finance army with industrial expansion. If you make the equipment cheap(fortunately we're doing this AFTER arms production and storage control), the army can be financed by making it cheap to outfit.
This would NORMALLY give the Guilds a lot of power, but with our Weapon Storage choice we've basically nationalized the Armorer guilds.

--[] [HS] Streamline system to better pay for reforms (Main Distribute Land)

Finance army with land distribution.
This gives the nobles a lot of power, and well...you'd need more land to hand out eventually.

--[] [HS] More trade is more money to pay for things (Main Plant Poppies [-3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, increased trade power])

Finance army with trade goods. This makes the army vulnerable to trade disruption and gives the traders a lot of power.

-Create the army:
--[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)

Actually raise the army.



There's really no point in putting Colossal Walls around Valleyhome, since if it ever gets to the point where Valleyhome is getting sieged we've likely exploded from Stability Spirals through land loss.

Forting up our periphery cities let's us push back opponents before they can really start to contest our lands, letting us avoid the stability spirals and giving us hardpoints where the enemy will have to wait and siege us out before advancing, once again slowing down the land loss.
Worth noting that Valleyhome had literally never, ever seen war. No foreign power has ever set foot upon the hill other than as friends.

But Colossal Walls there do have a use in city administration, rather than as defense. We'd probably find that once we build those in Blackmouth we'd find it FAR easier to control urban crime and disease in general. As with the Chinese Fortress-cities, the walls section off the city into gated blocks, which are then subdivided by walled but not always gated subdistricts.

Which means more or less any crime that's detected is fucked. You can bar the gates to individual city blocks and then push the full time city guard through the block to root out crime rather than deal with "vanished into the city"
 
I know, I just feel that 1 Forest/turn is going to be much more useful than 0.5/turn. The question is if that tops Skulduggery, Vassal Support, or Infrastructure.
Yeah, ideally i'd like us to have 2 forest policies, as well as a matching expansion policy to offset the EE drain. If we get our true cities back up, and/or add another free city, then we'll have enough policies to support that, i think. Assuming our next free city isn't blackmouth, we'll have at least an 18 EE threshold on our 4th non-free city, which would make it fairly easy to keep 7 cities up...well, on an EE level. At that point we'll need at least a few city support policies,thanks to panem... and if we do end up building block housing to get the ironworks and the quest reward for it, or if our policies or free cities build it for themselves that'll get even worse... blegh, yeah, we'll definitely need some city support policies... If only steel blooded helped with econ polices instead of just with actions D=

I'm much less enthused about Gilded Ages given the fact that Western Ymaryn can vamp us for Econ every time we take a Stab hit. They're making Gilded Ages much less desirable and making it expensive to Kick megaprojects.
That is a very important reminder, especially for me since that change in dynamic came while i wasn't paying much attention to the quest. That is really annoying, yeah... AN (and/or the stats we had after it happened) confirmed it was a full transfer, right, not just temp econ damage? ive been following his posts even while mostly not paying attention, but its been skimming at most.

Edit: *Blink* speaking of things i missed...somehow despite having on multiple occasions while away from the computer realized i hadn't actually read what the extended project ironworks does, i never actually checked it. So now that i have...damn thats powerful and we need to get at least one, even beside the issue of the reforms and the quest for it. Especially if the annexes we're building give us an extra tech refund like i hope and semi-expect it to! ...of course, at some point we'll have that action reworking that AN said was coming, and steel blooded and ironworks will be somewhat less ridiculously powerful as with the last action reworking, but even then we'll at least somewhat be able to keep ahead of our food costs from panem+block housing if we can stay on balanced and keep a decent number of vassals up for the food boost...
 
Last edited:
Yeah, ideally i'd like us to have 2 forest policies, as well as a matching expansion policy to offset the EE drain. If we get our true cities back up, and/or add another free city, then we'll have enough policies to support that, i think. Assuming our next free city isn't blackmouth, we'll have at least an 18 EE threshold on our 4th non-free city, which would make it fairly easy to keep 7 cities up...well, on an EE level. At that point we'll need at least a few city support policies,thanks to panem... and if we do end up building block housing to get the ironworks and the quest reward for it, or if our policies or free cities build it for themselves that'll get even worse... blegh, yeah, we'll definitely need some city support policies... If only steel blooded helped with econ polices instead of just with actions D=


That is a very important reminder, especially for me since that change in dynamic came while i wasn't paying much attention to the quest. That is really annoying, yeah... AN (and/or the stats we had after it happened) confirmed it was a full transfer, right, not just temp econ damage? ive been following his posts even while mostly not paying attention, but its been skimming at most.
I guess welcome to what happens when you can only skim the thread for a week?

Shit seems to change a lot now.

Reforms II:
-Shiny:
--[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)

They forgot about it already.

-Army administration(aka who gets to tell the armies where to go):
--[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)
--[Q] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
--[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)

Leadership approach has been locked in.


-Army Control(aka how do you keep the army from doing whatever the hell it wants):
--[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
--[Q] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)

Prediction: Prototype Deployment Organization will be gone next turn.

-Pay for the army:
--[] [HS] Increase Iron production to make things cheaper (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)

Finance army with industrial expansion. If you make the equipment cheap(fortunately we're doing this AFTER arms production and storage control), the army can be financed by making it cheap to outfit.
This would NORMALLY give the Guilds a lot of power, but with our Weapon Storage choice we've basically nationalized the Armorer guilds.

--[] [HS] Streamline system to better pay for reforms (Main Distribute Land)

Finance army with land distribution.
This gives the nobles a lot of power, and well...you'd need more land to hand out eventually.

--[] [HS] More trade is more money to pay for things (Main Plant Poppies [-3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, increased trade power])

Finance army with trade goods. This makes the army vulnerable to trade disruption and gives the traders a lot of power.

-Create the army:
--[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)

Actually raise the army.
Mmmmm yes. I'll be taking a Ironworks with a side order of Survey please?

Also it kinda frankly pays out the best of any of the options. Hope to Crow the Patricians don't try to hijack us doing the Ironworks(which lends some idea to putting it in a Guild action even if it is just a Secondary because hopefully the extra cost deters them as it would send them down to 2 strength and it may come out better if a Main is applied) with a Distribute Land. Then do the Survey with a Secondary for 0 econ.
 
That is a very important reminder, especially for me since that change in dynamic came while i wasn't paying much attention to the quest. That is really annoying, yeah... AN (and/or the stats we had after it happened) confirmed it was a full transfer, right, not just temp econ damage? ive been following his posts even while mostly not paying attention, but its been skimming at most.
This more than anything is why I would have wanted to take them back. Not because they deserve our embrace, but because they are a pain with this trait.
Mmmmm yes. I'll be taking a Ironworks with a side order of Survey please?

Also it kinda frankly pays out the best of any of the options. Hope to Crow the Patricians don't try to hijack us doing the Ironworks(which lends some idea to putting it in a Guild action even if it is just a Secondary because hopefully the extra cost deters them as it would send them down to 2 strength and it may come out better if a Main is applied) with a Distribute Land. Then do the Survey with a Secondary for 0 costs.
Not yet though, I rather grab the Deployment first as that allows for efficiency of armament. Once everyone knows what their doing, rubberstamp the procedures and conveyor belt them with Increase Iron Production followed by Continue raising Troops.
 
Edit: *Blink* speaking of things i missed...somehow despite having on multiple occasions while away from the computer realized i hadn't actually read what the extended project ironworks does, i never actually checked it. So now that i have...damn thats powerful and we need to get at least one, even beside the issue of the reforms and the quest for it. Especially if the annexes we're building give us an extra tech refund like i hope and semi-expect it to! ...of course, at some point we'll have that action reworking that AN said was coming, and steel blooded and ironworks will be somewhat less ridiculously powerful as with the last action reworking, but even then we'll at least somewhat be able to keep ahead of our food costs from panem+block housing if we can stay on balanced and keep a decent number of vassals up for the food boost...
Its also the first step to getting the random free megaproject from the Guild quest.

We have 3 turns to do it as of Myranyn Reforms I:
Guild (6) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a Level 2 Ironworks within 3 turns. Success: Free random megaproject AN: Yes, an entire megaproject, in a single turn, no charge
We currently have these to choose from. Academy, Great Library, Triangle Canal, and Dam-kun.
I'm hoping for Dam-kun so its finally finally fracking done.

Not yet though, I rather grab the Deployment first as that allows for efficiency of armament. Once everyone knows what their doing, rubberstamp the procedures and conveyor belt them with Increase Iron Production followed by Continue raising Troops.
I doubt we can take them all given what veekie provided as an example. Would be nice though.
 
We currently have these to choose from. Academy, Great Library, Triangle Canal, and Dam-kun.
I'm hoping for Dam-kun so its finally finally fracking done.
I mean...triangle canal would be quite nice in a "this is very action expensive" and "least priority but still really nice" and for that matter "would almost certainly fix our recent 'lack of econ and EE' issues" sense, but yeah, any of the four would be amazing....though i do have to wonder...would Reformers trigger on the Academy or Library if we get it for free? because that could lead to another overflow issue if we're unlucky...max possible expense for great library would be 44 stats, and even if we're still at 1/2 power on reformers* thats 22 stats dumped directly into us. If we've managed to get our stats back up to "normal" (that is, mostly maxed out) by then that could be an issue... o_O

Also note that if we need to we can support faction to give us more time, assuming an extra turn on that quest is worth 4 culture and giving another power to teh guilds...

*Which, assuming all the golden age stuff didn't reset it, i refuse to believe that it wont get reset if we make it through a major crisis by way of a major series of reforms, so... :p


Edit: also, random thought i just had, but i think i remember someone suggesting we should make blackmouth a free city because the reforms had suggested it, but...i'm pretty sure the reforms suggested it because it was the only potential free city at the time, since the only active true cities were the capital, the existing free cities, and blackmouth.
 
Last edited:
I don't think that we are going to see factions hijacking our actions very frequently.

1) I expect it to mostly happen when we are 1 turn away from failing their quest (probably ones with negative consequences for failure rather than rewards for success), and we aren't taking the action to fulfill said quest.
2) Hijacking an action reduces their long-term strength, thus making it harder to fulfill their goals in the future. The hijack needs to have a high reward for the faction to make it worthwhile.
3) Even if they are willing to expend the strength to hijack an action, they still need to be worried that a different faction will block said takeover.

It'll happen, but it won't be something we need to be particularly worried about every single turn.
 
That is a very important reminder, especially for me since that change in dynamic came while i wasn't paying much attention to the quest. That is really annoying, yeah... AN (and/or the stats we had after it happened) confirmed it was a full transfer, right, not just temp econ damage? ive been following his posts even while mostly not paying attention, but its been skimming at most.

Gilded Ages are even worse because they can't transition into Golden Ages, at least by the mechanics as we know them. Since Gilded Ages cause -1 Stab every turn, that means it's impossible to meet the maxed Stab for 1 whole turn requirement necessary to enter a Golden Age.

Additionally, Gilded Ages are entered into immediately upon maxing Wealth; Golden Ages have a full turn delay between maxing 2 stats and actually entering the Golden Age. This makes it even harder to get into Golden Ages because if we ever max wealth (such as by overflowing from Mysticism/Tech/Culture), we'll immediately spoil any effort to set up a Golden Age as it's pre-empted by a Gilded Age.

We're actually on a razor thin margin; if Wealth drops below 5, the Guilds freak out and we lose one Stab, cancelling the Golden Age. Conversely, if we overflow from Mysticism/Tech/Culture into Wealth, we can rapidly be forced into a Gilded Age instead of the preferred Golden Age. Just by their nature, Mysticism/Tech/Culture are easier to max out as stats which then causes their income to be translated to Wealth. Given the fact that Guild Actions often are at least stat neutral or create a lot of Wealth directly and shift Econ into Wealth or Mysticism/Tech/Culture, we will have very limited options to safely max them out while avoiding a Gilded Age.
 
Back
Top