While not an orthodox opinion, many now suspect that lightning is in fact the purest form of vitriol available in the material world.

The fact that this could set people onto trying to 'refine' lightning from vitriol by combining it with things is sheer good luck. After all, batteries get made that way.

Also @Academia Nut, do we have evaporative refrigeration?( Pot-in-pot refrigerator - Wikipedia ) or do we have to steal the idea from someone else? Because we've had pottery for a long time, and all this talk about the centrality of hot and cold to alchemy sounds like fertile ground for any person who's ever sweat before to start thinking about the laws of when and how hotness and wetnesss transfer to other things and realize that refrigeration is a thing that can happen.
 
Technically our priests are bullshitting us as well, but that's because their pulling shit out of their ass to explain something they have no idea about into line with their ideology
This is one of the greatest danger of mixing Science and religion. Priests hate saying "We don't know."
Love of Wisdom trait disagrees with you. I mean look back at the debates with the Lowland Priests. We were quite willing to say we do not know, even if it hurt our position. We check and recheck.
As long as they don't grind up the bones or something we could always correct it later. (Please please please @Academia Nut don't have them destroy the bones).
*Looks back at how we got Iron*

*Glances at destroyed holy artifacts*

Well...
 
So, given our new city cap, we have a new goal: max cities! Which will give max passive policies and innovation.

Assuming we want to avoid penalties, and ignoring bonus subordinate slots from policies, but taking the latest free city vote into account, we can have up to 12/2 (provinces) + (14-2)/2 (landed subordinates) cities = 12 total cities. Iiuc that means accumulating about 40 points of city-retention bonuses. I'd have to hunt down the maths to work out what that would take.

Free cities give an extra passive policy iiuc, but AI-chosen, *plus* they don't add to the city cap. Hmm...would we be better off with two colonies + bonus true city, or with two free cities? The free cities give 4 passive policies, 2 Econ Expansion refund (if it matters), 2 innovation chances, and cost no maintenance, while the colonies + city give just one policy, one refund, one innovation chance, and cost 1 Econ maintenance, but boatloads of extra settlement actions.
 
Upgrading the Temple should incentive the priests to preserve the Dragon Bones, since they would become more important as cultural artifacts instead of just being a scientific curiosity.

Despite our super high RA I also support upgrading the temple, we're not in the red yet and religious innovations might be critical to building authority in the lowlands, and avoiding getting our religIon displaced by someone else's in the long term.
 
So, given our new city cap, we have a new goal: max cities! Which will give max passive policies and innovation.

Assuming we want to avoid penalties, and ignoring bonus subordinate slots from policies, but taking the latest free city vote into account, we can have up to 12/2 (provinces) + (14-2)/2 (landed subordinates) cities = 12 total cities. Iiuc that means accumulating about 40 points of city-retention bonuses. I'd have to hunt down the maths to work out what that would take.

Free cities give an extra passive policy iiuc, but AI-chosen, *plus* they don't add to the city cap. Hmm...would we be better off with two colonies + bonus true city, or with two free cities? The free cities give 4 passive policies, 2 Econ Expansion refund (if it matters), 2 innovation chances, and cost no maintenance, while the colonies + city give just one policy, one refund, one innovation chance, and cost 1 Econ maintenance, but boatloads of extra settlement actions.
don't think we have the population or the food production to actually sustain that many True Cities.

I'm pretty sure that True Cities are required to have at least 50,000 people, or some other kind of similarly large number, which means that 12 of them would be 600,000 people, around an eighth of our total population, would be in True Cities.

This is currently unsustainable because we wouldn't be able to produce enough food for all of these people. We currently are having troubles producing enough food to sustain five True Cities, let alone 12.

I think we should be happy with the Five that we have and focus on Influencing and Integrating our Lowlands Vassals.
 
So, given our new city cap, we have a new goal: max cities! Which will give max passive policies and innovation.
Wait, I got the comparison wrong. The colonies give a bonus city. What I should have compared was not two colonies plus one true city vs two free cities, but rather two colonies plus three true cities vs two free cities.

So, the colonies (or other landed subordinates) approach gets lots of extra actions, one extra innovation chance, one extra Econ slot refund in the rare event it matters, and one more player-chosen passive policy, but costs three Econ and 3 Centralization to maintain, and gets two less AI-chosen policies.
 
I mean, the fire breathing, snake bat winged dragon disagrees with this
Please, if the dragons couldn't spit Vitriol, how do you propose they turned to stone?

This isn't a "don't know" situation for our priests. They look at what physical evidence they have, combine it with what they already know of the world and correlate this with the other experts in the field.

The dragons are bat winged because they found bone structures similar to a bat's among the bones, and since they do not have a complete enough record to see that these are multiple different species, they are assumed to all come from the same. After all, only one species can be confirmed to be there.

If they later find another dragon that's incompatible with their known attributes (and recognize it as such), they'll probably realise that multiple species exist and reexamine their old fossils to see if what they thought was one kind of creature was actualy several. They probably still won't reach the right conclusions because for goodness sake, this is like putting together a puzzle with 15% of the bricks and no knowledge of the final product.

EDIT: Also, maybe dinosaurs actually were winged poison-spitting beings on this Earth. We don't know.
 
*tips hat to Xohyssiri*
Eh? Arxin was one of ours, mate.
Unfortunately, Ashryn's pride and ambition came with a dark side: he could not let things go. Worse yet, as a warrior, he was used to dealing with problems in terms of attack and defence, which meant that as soon as he could, he contrived to continue an old conflict from his younger days, against a tribe where they had "one that got away". Another warrior of a sort who had made his fortunes sneaking past Ashryn's patrols to steal food and women, including in one infamous case a young woman Ashryn had a clear attraction to. For the new Big Man, the old wounds to his pride could not be healed with anything less than the destruction of his nemesis and everything around the man. He lead attacks, he gathered the entire male populace of the village to sweep the enemy away, and still his foe, soon enough called Crow for the black feathers he stuck in his hair, would not die.

Also, what do we have, Quetzalcoatl?
 
Would our people actually have the needed rigour to excavate a complete skeleton in its complete form? I imagine everything gets just scrambled together, partially because of how long an excavation with our current tools probably takes and also because a dude who finds some awesome skull will run off without caring much about what else could await him nearby.
Well it is considered a holy site so I have my doubts that just anybody can excavate the site.

@Academia Nut seeing as how the Khem have been influencing our views on astrology and dinosaurs have our priests been influencing the the Khem's own religious beliefs as well?

Did our priests who taught the Khem the sacred warding majorly influence how the Khem view sickness or nature? How did they react when they discovered that our most major god is a six eyed demon god called Crow who consists of three parts?
 
A theoretical Servant Arxin's Noble Phantasm would be tearing a whole in the world and letting loose a swarm of Dragons.
Iskander: You may be the Tyrant, but I am the conquerer! Ionioi Hetairoi! Fell him, my great armies!
Arxin: Fool. You call me the Tyrant, but the Tyrant of what?!? Open thy mouth, and burn the world with the vitriol, Ddraig Cythraul!
Tormulyna: *Incomprehensible muttering* IMPACT!
 
"Crow's like a sort of demon-thing, right?"
"Sort of, yeah."
"So demons might have Crow-like features?"
"Some, probably."
"Only, like, more awesome because they're demons and shit?"
"Obviously."
"So, like demons should have like obsidian feathers, right?"
"A reasonable proposition. Statues of Crow certainly do."
"Sweet."
oh, I'd hoped we'd found some fossils with feather prints >.>

Dragons start with bird-like when they're babies (chicks? hatchlings?) (cus the feathered fossils are small) then lose them over time as they grow and are steadily replaced by iron scales. Only decorative crests remain, usually hardened in males to deter attacks.

also, y'all keep quoting the really basic, cut-down version of the quote so here's a full one.

The quotation, in context, reads as follows (emphasis added):
The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.​
-Karl Max​
 
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we can have up to 12/2 (provinces) + (14-2)/2 (landed subordinates) cities = 12 total cities. Iiuc that means accumulating about 40 points of city-retention bonuses. I'd have to hunt down the maths to work out what that would take.

Free cities give an extra passive policy iiuc, but AI-chosen, *plus* they don't add to the city cap. Hmm...would we be better off with two colonies + bonus true city, or with two free cities? The free cities give 4 passive policies, 2 Econ Expansion refund (if it matters), 2 innovation chances, and cost no maintenance, while the colonies + city give just one policy, one refund, one innovation chance, and cost 1 Econ maintenance, but boatloads of extra settlement actions.
1) We don't currently have any more colony locations, so for now it is a comparison between having two true cities vs having two free cities.
2) Mercenary companies are unlanded, thus they do not provide city slots.
3) Disregarding point 1 and assuming that we want to be able to build the most cities possible, we should put each free city into vassal support policy, effectively making each take up only half of a city slot.

don't think we have the population or the food production to actually sustain that many True Cities.

I'm pretty sure that True Cities are required to have at least 50,000 people, or some other kind of similarly large number, which means that 12 of them would be 600,000 people, around an eighth of our total population, would be in True Cities.

This is currently unsustainable because we wouldn't be able to produce enough food for all of these people. We currently are having troubles producing enough food to sustain five True Cities, let alone 12.

I think we should be happy with the Five that we have and focus on Influencing and Integrating our Lowlands Vassals.
It is possible though. Either put every other policy on true city support (pays 2 econ) or make each true city into a free city and put it on vassal support (city pays for its econ, takes no subordinate slots, adds one culture, gives ai passive policy).
 
Not really. It is called working with incomplete information and primitive understanding of biology.
You would not call modern science theories bull**** just because they are not a hundred percent certain.
I wouldn't call almost zero information incomplete, because incomplete implies more than what they actually have, but ok. You can't compare modern science to what our priests are doing, its making up hocus pocus to explain things, and while this can be useful, in this case its just humorous bs
 
Outside of the actual quest itself, I think my favorite part of this thread is the occasional panicked realization that Ymaryn isn't perfect and page after page of wondering about why this is happening when things seemed so ideal as long as no one looked too close. It is always amusing.
 
Outside of the actual quest itself, I think my favorite part of this thread is the occasional panicked realization that Ymaryn isn't perfect and page after page of wondering about why this is happening when things seemed so ideal as long as no one looked too close. It is always amusing.
I never really understand why people think the Ymaryn are perfect, and make a fuss when its revealed that they are in fact humans... its bash your head with a mallet obvious
 
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I do not have enough likes to give.
I do have two other ideas:

Yenya being the first Berserker ever to scream and run from a battle, Illya held above her head.

Phygrif as Lancer, weilding a giant battering ram as his spear. Almost a Joker figure, mixing utter ruthlessness and humor, with the Grail War being an excuse more than anything.
 
Just realized something... the Welsh word for demon, Cythraul, looks and sounds like Cthulhu.

Was Lovecraft paranoid about the Welsh of all people?
 
I wouldn't call almost zero information incomplete, because incomplete implies more than what they actually have, but ok. You can't compare modern science to what our priests are doing, its making up hocus pocus to explain things, and while this can be useful, in this case its just humorous bs
I hate relativism but like...:

*points at mercury*
*points at vitriol*
*points at sacred warding*
*points at aqueduct system*
*points at iron*
*points at hospitals*
*points at random other innovations*



"Modern Science" developed as a result of archives, microscopes, and philosophy. We have 2/3.

Even then, after we had microscopes et. al, we still made up hocus pocus to explain what the dinosaurs were(, still refused consider that physics might apply to living things, still refused to consider that maybe we shouldn't spray pesticides literally everywhere) until people were like "what if things change bro??" Literally all they need is to realize that evolution is a thing, that their bones aren't the same animal, etc.

They have the bones, they have dogs that are different from each other, they have vague selective breeding, it's not the biggest leap.
People work w/ what they have.
 
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