But there are many methods to gain education. Tutors were a well-known and wide-spread job during ancient times. And Patrician families are not the only who can afford tutors. There are also the traders, or guild masters or even the wealthiest of the yeomen families. Especially with the Arete trait, proper education may become a virtue even in non-Patrician circles, so it's possibles families may be willing to spend quite a bit on tutors.

So you can get people properly educated even outside patrician families. But all those other peoples are locked out from the ruling class.

As I've said before, I'm pretty willing to go to a wealth-based oligarchic system, which by its nature allows at least a certain modicum of social mobility. It is at least better than a pure blood-line based system.

Who says we invented tutors as a job?

That's what Gyms and Libraries should solve.

And we do have some wealth (well, influence but thats IMO better than prople buying their way up) based upward mobility. Artisans can rise up the ladder to be in the running.

Anyone can join the military and make a career.

It works over generations, but even the Patricians have to work to reach the top of the heap and according to AN, have a reasonably high turnover rate.


Besides, ultimately heredity doesn't matter. The absolute priority is that it serves the Ymaryn as a whole. Burning the system down for high minded principles helps no one. Starting a revolution just brings in the next round of patricians as frequently happened in history, just with a lot of dead people, suffering and legitimizing mob rule. If heredity ensures that the most people live a comfortable life, then I support heredity. If it becomes a hindrance, I will fight it. But not on poorly reasoned principles and populism.
 
The third point is explicitly not true. Marriage seems to be the only way to move into the patrician category.
There are few hereditary warrior families that don't either aspire to become patricians or go extinct in the process, but there are many only a few generations old that are working their way up from humble beginnings.
Chariot archer fathers will typically have chariot archer sons, but from there they will push for their grandsons to either marry into or found their own patrician influence network.
 
The third point is explicitly not true. Marriage seems to be the only way to move into the patrician category.

It's the easiest way.

Much like big corporations buy up successful start up.

Older or weakened Patrician families use rising stars to shore up their fortunes. Is that bad for the rising star? He or she made it, after all. They are now a Patrician.

And this also ties the patricians back to the lower classes. The newcomers still have family in the poorer classes. They will carry their concerns up the ladder. Same with the sons of patricians that had to join the clerks or artisans. They presumably still talk with their parents or older siblings. But their social strata means more contact with lower classes, where humans, as social animals, will build relationships.
 
This is false here is the quote to prove it such

Now if the warrior caste can found their own patrician network why not the artisans or the traders or the yeomans?
What sorta reading of "influence network" is that? Influence network != family. They can certainly play the political game and try to gain influence networks among the patricians, and marriages are a good way to do this, but influence network does indeed just mean they will have contacts among the patricians. As for actually rising to be patricians:

The families are relatively stable, in that its often more useful for an up and coming family to simply take over the name and ancestral prestige of an old and decrepit family, but the connections and relationships are extremely volatile over the length of centuries.
Marriage (at the very least as a way to gain the name) seems to be the only way. There was also another post by AN but damned if I can find it.
 
Edit: Amusingly, I've actually found myself in violation of Chesterton's principle regarding guilds. I CAN'T see what net good they provided to society... which is why I've stopped advocating against them. Obviously, I'm critically ignorant or biased in some way. I'm in the 'go away and think about it' stage... :D
At a suggestion for a possible net good, they are providing essential services of moving our enormous resource flows in a timely manner. They provide occupations for our patricians sons and daughters, as well as trader children. They are probably one of the more stable and effective systems for encouraging the growth of competent managers and leaders, and work well with our increasing urbanization. This is countered by them creating a social structure we do not like and wish to change. They also are of less import to our Yeomen, the biggest fraction of our population, but they are also not actively harmful except when taking away farmland for their own products.

Well, I guess it depends on personal valuation on if one will judge this off the cuff consideration as a net good. I do for the most part.

I also did not know about Chesterton, and it is awesome and I love it. Thank you for showing it to us.
 
That's why I specified Rulwyna. Nothing mystic-exotic like with the Dragon General. She rose with the Red Banner (and how many women does the Red Banner hold these days I wonder?), and then was elected king as a superb general and administrator. The same way a man would, really. But these days, women don't seem to be able to do that anymore, if one reads the family life descriptions AN posted. Certainly, women haven't even come up as candidates in the last half dozen king decisions, except for the super-special obviously deity-touched Dragon General.

Something like Rulwyna, possibly our best monarch ever without whom our civilization would have outright crumbled, would not be possible these days.
No, Rulwyna was blocked from attaining Kingship to the extent that 2/4 of her paths to power involved some kind of military coup, and the last 1/4 that we took wound up with an economic coup, by blowing up the existing monopolies and founding a new one through establishing an entirely new product.

Someone like Rulwyna would have obtained power these days by manipulating the theaters and entertainers into power instead.

It might not be actual prostitution. It may be that any sex outside of licensed prostitution or our local analogue to marriage can be considered to be "unlicensed prostitution", especially if at least one participant is a member of the lower classes.
We have prostitution defined as the acquisition of goods, food, or luxuries through trading of sexual activity. We're relatively open to sexual activity out of wedlock or unusual sexual activities in general.
If nothing else works... but as I've said before, the notion that the push towards heredity and noble rule is a one-way street until there is some sort of French Revolution is mistaken. Heredity and noble power can be pushed back. We just need to find a way how. We need to weaken the Patrician class and empower other classes, and we must always take the option that allows for the greatest social mobility.


You don't get the "best and brightest" with hereditary rule, though. You get those who are offspring of the current rulers, nothing more, nothing less.
You have to start with ignoring the Yeomen quests then. Their quests make the Patricians stronger funny enough..
But there are many methods to gain education. Tutors were a well-known and wide-spread job during ancient times. And Patrician families are not the only who can afford tutors. There are also the traders, or guild masters or even the wealthiest of the yeomen families. Especially with the Arete trait, proper education may become a virtue even in non-Patrician circles, so it's possibles families may be willing to spend quite a bit on tutors.

So you can get people properly educated even outside patrician families. But all those other peoples are locked out from the ruling class.

As I've said before, I'm pretty willing to go to a wealth-based oligarchic system, which by its nature allows at least a certain modicum of social mobility. It is at least better than a pure blood-line based system.
But the bolded is pretty much completely bullshit as a claim. The latest information post lays it out as the opposite.
The Patricians do not hoard titles because they can't.

They hoard competence. They work hard to make sure nobody else can get the skills and contacts to break into the Patrician game of elite administrators, meaning the tutors are available only through their contact networks.
This is the natural political outcome of a meritocracy: if you cannot manipulate the selection process then you simply manipulate the qualifications instead.

It would be like requiring a college degree to enter politics, but positions in college are only available via a secret mailing list.
 
Who says we invented tutors as a job?
Ultimately, a tutor is simply someone who knows something in a field which you hire to tell that knowledge to you, or your son or whatever. That's not rocket science.

Besides, ultimately heredity doesn't matter. The absolute priority is that it serves the Ymaryn as a whole.
Which is exactly the problem. A closed elite with no oversight will always only look out for the own interests, no matter what social traits or values we have.
 
What sorta reading of "influence network" is that? Influence network != family. They can certainly play the political game and try to gain influence networks among the patricians, and marriages are a good way to do this, but influence network does indeed just mean they will have contacts among the patricians. As for actually rising to be patricians:


Marriage (at the very least as a way to gain the name) seems to be the only way. There was also another post by AN but damned if I can find it.
Them having patrician influence network means they are patricians. Because that's how patricians in our society defined are, they have influence network they can leverage.
 
I don't get it. How do more forests, roads and farmland make our (largely urban) Patricians stronger?
More provinces that need managerial positions handled by the Patricians. And more True City potentiates. More things they can slot their kids into and the like.

It's really long term stuff though. But the really important stuff in our system is the long term stuff.


Or at least that's how I understand this.


E: Ummm, sorta think of it like this. With every town and villiage and so on, you need patrician leaders and managers for the more complicated things like our food distribution. So basically what happens is that we make a new provinces, the yeomen move in and set up villiage het-men and the like. Then as more people move in population increases and you get the lowest status patricians, who then build up their management zone to rise in status. Or something like this anyway if I am not misunderstanding things.
 
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We have prostitution defined as the acquisition of goods, food, or luxuries through trading of sexual activity. We're relatively open to sexual activity out of wedlock or unusual sexual activities in general.
Remember earlier in the quest when we were told that the definition of prostitution is relatively loose? That a popular woman could avoid being taxed on her activities on the pretext that they were just gifts from her various lovers? The reverse is probably true as well.

That an unpopular woman who has a lover could be accused of being an unlicensed prostitute. The accusation would be unlikely to be done out of morality, but instead due to greed/corruption. It wouldn't happen in valleyhome, but the more far-off provinces (especially the Northern ones) could use her activities as a pretext to demote or threaten to demote her to half-caste status.

I dearly hope that I am wrong.
 
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I don't get it. How do more forests, roads and farmland make our (largely urban) Patricians stronger?
Because they aren't. The Guilds are urban.

The Patricians are our land administrator caste. The more land, the more layers of bureaucracy, the more powerful the patricians are. The current batch of Yeomen would be happy because expanded lands means room to support more Patrician families, and the ambitious Yeoman has a good chance of getting recognition and becoming a patrician in the new province.

The yeomen clans take care of the land, but directly administrating the yeoman clan heads are the low patrician clans, who are administrated by the provincial patricians, who are administrated by the royal patricians.
The line blurs, but they're the upper slice of clerks and the low patricians are basically just elite clerks or warriors.
 
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They can build up and cultivate contacts into the administration apparatus; but the administration apparatus itself is still locked for them.
No it's not. They can leverage their contacts and influence to gather votes from others and elect their relatives to these positions. Like every other patrician in our society, young or not.
 
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Because they aren't. The Guilds are urban.

The Patricians are our land administrator caste. The more land, the more layers of bureaucracy, the more powerful the patricians are. The current batch of Yeomen would be happy because expanded lands means room to support more Patrician families, and the ambitious Yeoman has a good chance of getting recognition and becoming a patrician in the new province.

The yeomen clans take care of the land, but directly administrating the yeoman clan heads are the low patrician clans, who are administrated by the provincial patricians, who are administrated by the royal patricians.
The line blurs, but they're the upper slice of clerks and the low patricians are basically just elite clerks or warriors.
Basically patricians are considered the best, the top, and in the context of our society with Arete everyone is striving to be a patrician. Do I have that right?
 
Because they aren't. The Guilds are urban.

The Patricians are our land administrator caste. The more land, the more layers of bureaucracy, the more powerful the patricians are. The current batch of Yeomen would be happy because expanded lands means room to support more Patrician families, and the ambitious Yeoman has a good chance of getting recognition and becoming a patrician in the new province.
I'm pretty sure the patricians run basically the entire government, including taxes, etc. Most of that work will be concentrated in cities. Since Yeoman land 'ownership' is pretty much hereditary, there isn't a lot of power to be had there.

I'd guess Yeomen want more land so more of their kids can get plots of their own.
 
Because they aren't. The Guilds are urban.

The Patricians are our land administrator caste. The more land, the more layers of bureaucracy, the more powerful the patricians are. The current batch of Yeomen would be happy because expanded lands means room to support more Patrician families, and the ambitious Yeoman has a good chance of getting recognition and becoming a patrician in the new province.

The yeomen clans take care of the land, but directly administrating the yeoman clan heads are the low patrician clans, who are administrated by the provincial patricians, who are administrated by the royal patricians.
The line blurs, but they're the upper slice of clerks and the low patricians are basically just elite clerks or warriors.
Higher levels of guilds are also managed by patricians.
 
Man, at this point we're not even sure how our system works.

Which is kinda amusing given the subject of discussion.
 
@Academia Nut
We have 10% - 15% of our population half-exiles. How do they divide into (inherited) , (refugees) , (criminals) and (temporary) categories?


We will need a large number of half-exiles until after our Industrial revolution. They are our sanitation department, our undertakers etc
Half-exile is a reasonable criminal punishment, in theory it is a combination of community service(for example Black Soil) and rehabilitation(spiritual purification). Ideally the sentences reflect the crime and are just. The problem occurs when the practice drifts from the intent.

First we need to fix our cultural drift between provinces, mass building roads is probably the first step in that.
Second we need an independent judiciary, the current system of the local leader (village chief, guild master etc) deciding the punishment results in the half-exile duration being heavily influenced. While we do have a good appeals system(you can work your way up to the King) the time required is unaffordable for most. Improving our Justice value and possibly governors' palaces might help with developing magistrates.
Third is improving the rehabilitation part of Half-exile. As this is conducted by our priests the only way is to increase the number of priests.
 
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