Another, additional but risky possibility is to do something like the Roman Legion. Half Exiles may enlist as auxiliaries (I expect a lot of IC pushback against allowing them mainline duties). While in the army, they get the full experience of getting a Drill Seargent to beat you into shape, teach you how to build a camp and maybe learn a trade to make that worthless maggot useful. At the end, they are considered to have paid back society for their transgressions, learned valuable skills, discipline, comradery and probably our laws and language if they are an immigrant.

If we want to go really far, we could add reading as a skill taught to prospective Legionaires under the rationale that they need to be able to read written orders. Thats how rome did it, I think. Given that war is a young mans job, they will cycle through regularly and act as an adhoc education service that can keep rowdy yound men and women in line. We even have the perfect weapon for unskilled noobs that the Yeomen look down on. The Gastraphe.

There is also, of course, the road and wall building stuff Legions can do where the Half-Exiles can be useful and be acclimated to society and get some social mobility.
Not going to work due to how we set up society. Remember we consider the experience of hard labor building and/or joining the army to be a highly desirable reward. Getting the sign off on a penal legion won't change anything there other than making sure the criminals have weapons and know how to use them.

Particularly when Half Exiles do an important, reviled job that nobody wants to. Alternative punishments are not the solution here. Nor is the existence of half-exiles in itself a problem.
The specific problems are:
-Unreasonable lengths of sentencing. Most of these cases should be short, fixed terms, not indefinite terms with a review they cannot pass.
--Causes:
---Lack of central oversight.
---Cultural divergence
---Deliberate or ignorant misinterpretation of vague laws.
---Priests either in collusion with legal system or taking it upon themselves to excessively punish sinners.
---Elite evasion of system provokes excessive sentencing

--Solutions
---More roads and governor palaces
---Additional checks and balances for legal authority, including the practice of recusing for personal entanglement
---Push Influence into subordinates
---Further formalization of the Law
---Evolution of Justice value to keep up with Communalism, Elitism and Environmentalism values

-High recidivism. Those with proper sentence lengths tend to keep winding back in the same spot.
--Causes
---Long sentences eliminate non-criminal avenues of social climbing and success. While legal reform had closed off the deadly Catch 22 that used to be a major factor had died down with reform, this remains an issue.
---Corrective labor sentences not effective at rehabilitating offenders.
---System places deviant individuals in close concentration, reinforcing undesirable values.
---System disfavors maladapted refugees.

--Solutions
---Fix sentencing issues.
---Increase spiritual oversight and purification efforts
----Which requires further development of justice value to actually work rather than the priests screaming at them for being sinners.
---Tell me when the modern prison system figures this out :V
---Tell me when modern immigration systems figures this out :V

Obviously most of these can't really be implemented any time soon.
Some of these aren't really implemented even today.
Women rights are another thorny subject as there is no easy answer. We already got very far with what we have.

Still, there are options. Running headlong against the stereotypes as a start may be attractive, but that got us into the No True Scotsman situation as now and is hard to aim. Rather, I think we should co-opt the stereotypes.

AN said that Weavers are often women. Then lets massively expand that trade. Make it an economic powerhouse that can compete with the others. As long as the majority of members are women, the odds that their leaders are women as well are fairly good. That normalizes average(ish) women in leading positions. It won't be instant, but it will happen. They are just as much power players as the male patricians, so we can expect them to to their best to hold onto every bit of power they can.

There are probably other trades that are dominated by women, but I can't think of any right now. But weavers should benefit from Hemp production, so we have options to boost it.
We got a few:
-Clerks are an even split at the grassroots. We devour so much clerkpower that it doesn't matter whats in your underwear so much as whether you can math. Can't affect this.

-Hospitality services are female dominant. Traditionally feminine work in cooking, cleaning, and such means that on top of the prostitutes, women run the hotels, inns and restaurants most of the time. Building Baths and Gymnasiums may help as they fall under the same umbrella.

-Feminine crafts reinforce the stereotypes, in the weavers and the priesthood tied alchemists, possibly painters once we actually develop those. But any investment into Art Patronage just as likely promotes the potters and such.

-Priesthood has a slight bias towards women. But this doesn't really help because joining the priesthood for most people is a statement of forsaking your biological sex, i.e. they're female but not considered women.

China didn't, though.

Or at least pulled back together.

Overextension in Romes case was partly their conquest economy and local commanders paying their armies.

But we are still very far from a collapse scenario due to size.
Not as far as you might think. Once we integrate our subordinates we'd be nearing the province strain limits again, and we're facing SERIOUS transport strain.

China also organized their civilization along the courses of their great rivers, while Rome leaned upon the easy access to maritime traffic of the Mediterranean to ease things.

Grab a spade and a quill.
 
So instead of this being a realistic and grounded civ simulation quest you want a button that turns us into Mary Sue: Civ Edition am I understanding you correctly?
*looks back at every "Ymaryn's burden" post made in this thread*
Maybe not to that extent, but I would like to unambiguously be the good guy.
 
We had de facto hereditary land for centuries, even before first tax crisis I think.
The tax crisis was aimed at systematically disfavoring the accumulation of wealth and power in individuals, putting it with the state.

It failed because the only way to make it work was to figure out basic Algebra 2000 years ahead of time, not a century after developing an alphabet.

The only thing we DID manage at the end was to avoid de jure hereditary
 
I would like to unambiguously be the good guy.
Ah, wouldn't we all. Unfortunately that often gets tangled.

Even in our Stone Age days, back when we were offering the hand of friendship to the first traders and teaching farming to the lowland exiles, we were also fierce warriors, we sent the Thunder Horse at the Spirit Talkers, we elected Foolish Ashryn, etc. We can be the good guys, but whether it can be unambiguous...
 
Not going to work due to how we set up society. Remember we consider the experience of hard labor building and/or joining the army to be a highly desirable reward. Getting the sign off on a penal legion won't change anything there other than making sure the criminals have weapons and know how to use them.

Particularly when Half Exiles do an important, reviled job that nobody wants to. Alternative punishments are not the solution here. Nor is the existence of half-exiles in itself a problem.

Yeah, got the arguments bungled up. The legion type work would work well for integrating refugees that have combat training and are looking for a job. There they'd get more than enough supervision to learn our customs and be kept away from situations where they can easily screw up.

It also soaks up the more violent refugees that can cause unrest and with some luck, they can go on to support other refugees from their former homes adapt by actually explaining things.

Not as far as you might think. Once we integrate our subordinates we'd be nearing the province strain limits again, and we're facing SERIOUS transport strain.

China also organized their civilization along the courses of their great rivers, while Rome leaned upon the easy access to maritime traffic of the Mediterranean to ease things.

Grab a spade and a quill.

We have some fairly big rivers and a lake too. The trouble will be to expand that network adequately.

But the communication issue should also spur innovation into speeding things up or more efficient local governance. We already reformed provinces into super-provinces. We will need to repeat that soon enough and grant those provinces more autonomy so they can actually react to a crisis. A Federation, essentially.

Keeping it all together and coordinated will be the challenge.
 
Ah, wouldn't we all. Unfortunately that often gets tangled.

Even in our Stone Age days, back when we were offering the hand of friendship to the first traders and teaching farming to the lowland exiles, we were also fierce warriors, we sent the Thunder Horse at the Spirit Talkers, we elected Foolish Ashryn, etc. We can be the good guys, but whether it can be unambiguous...
I think it's more a desire for when things were clearer, and we had less realpolitik to worry about. Am I right @DocMatoi?

I actually have good news if that is the case, if we can wrap up the lowlands by absorbing the HK through some means and influencing the TS and RTH. And integrate parts of the Txolla, as well as the TS and RTH, and stop the Trelli from chattel slaving. After this, we can cut down on a lot of the probably unpleasant realpolitik. Stay friendly with the Khem, and stay out of most Not!Med politics, and build up for Nomad Hordes.

Just go back to "Sleep" and work on internal issues.

We are pretty long over due for a consolidation phase, which we are starting now. Do that, work on the vassals. Then solve the other problems I mentioned. Then go for a long consolidation phase and a Long Sleep. E: For some context I consider us to have been Sleeping during the time up to, through, and a bit beyond the first Tax crisis since we were very isolated.

(Of note I am actually being serious here in that I think this would help return us to things we consider happier)
 
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Can we? how do you propose that those who spend much of their day working and the rest trying to sustain a body that spends much of the day working to be high paid, how are you gonna defend their high pay from patricians who spend most of the time they don't spend running the system jockeying for power, what happens when the patricians want to cut some costs and know very well that they can make those jobs pay less and still have people do them?
We ignore the brats. Fuck the balance sheet as long as there is food and shelter. Fuck capitalism
 
I think it's more a desire for when things were clearer, and we had less realpolitik to worry about. Am I right @DocMatoi?
Well, it's not just that.
When people look back on the Ymaryn historical record, I want there to be pride in what their ancestors did.
If, in the future, some unpleasant chap who makes a lot of noise about 'old glory' and 'tradition' comes along, I want him to have to build an egalitarian society. (Pride in Acceptance mitigates this... kinda)
 
I think it's more a desire for when things were clearer, and we had less realpolitik to worry about. Am I right @DocMatoi?
No, I think the problem is we have become more or less like all the other iron age asshole societies. We had a copper age UBI, copper age vax, a flowering enclave far away from the constant war of the lowlands... and now we have, like everyone else, nobles and de facto slave and abuses. There isn't that sense anymore that they're used to be, like way back in Common Turn:

Half a cycle of the moon later and they emerged from the stones of the badlands into...

Into paradise.

If we, somehow, could give all the power we have attained to bring the society of those days, I'd take that trade. But the problem is not the amount of external power we have accumulated. I don't think that is somehow inherently corrupting. The problem is what our society has turned into. No communal property anymore, no egalitarianism, no gender equality. What do you think would be odds that a female King like Rulwyna would be elected these days? Hell, back then people just didn't care in what sort of relationship/family unit she lived. I get the sense these days they very much would.

Our society has in fact very much regressed, and even a peace period won't change that. This isn't a matter of foreign policy Realpolitik, it's a matter of our society.
 
What do you think would be odds that a female King like Rulwyna would be elected these days?

I agree with most of what you say, but the "third soul" theory actually allows a good shot at kingship for female heroes. Our people would just shrug and say "she's not really a woman." Hell we had an option to make the Dragon General King at the last election (she would have been a puppet yes but not because of being a woman).
 
Because the aristocrats are the lawmakers. They will never make a law that damages their interests. It would be inconceivable.
A certain Monsieur Robespierre has a very good solution to recommend here...

I agree with most of what you say, but the "third soul" theory actually allows a good shot at kingship for female heroes.
That's why I specified Rulwyna. Nothing mystic-exotic like with the Dragon General. She rose with the Red Banner (and how many women does the Red Banner hold these days I wonder?), and then was elected king as a superb general and administrator. The same way a man would, really. But these days, women don't seem to be able to do that anymore, if one reads the family life descriptions AN posted. Certainly, women haven't even come up as candidates in the last half dozen king decisions, except for the super-special obviously deity-touched Dragon General.

Something like Rulwyna, possibly our best monarch ever without whom our civilization would have outright crumbled, would not be possible these days.
 
Tech doesn't force societies to be nonoppressive. See the Soviet Union, Maoist China and Nazi Germany for instance. Unparalleled butchery post-industrial revolution.

What it does do is ALLOW societies to be better. What path we take will be dependent on our choices.

Neither does capitalism. It simply incentivises it, which personally consider much more dangerous.
 
That's why I specified Rulwyna. Nothing mystic-exotic like with the Dragon General. She rose with the Red Banner (and how many women does the Red Banner hold these days I wonder?), and then was elected king as a superb general and administrator. The same way a man would, really. But these days, women don't seem to be able to do that anymore, if one reads the family life descriptions AN posted. Certainly, women haven't even come up as candidates in the last half dozen king decisions, except for the super-special obviously deity-touched Dragon General.
Hardly she was thought of as having a third soul as well a female third soul at that.
 
A certain Monsieur Robespierre has a very good solution to recommend here...

Not applicable for millennia. For popular rule to be more than mob rule "the people" need to be educated far beyond what we can give them.

That's why I specified Rulwyna. Nothing mystic-exotic like with the Dragon General.

The Red Banner was important to her ascension, but so was her work in alchemy, she was one of the founding mothers of the subject. Rulwyn was even in her time thought to be a woman of great mystical potency.
 
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