So no, I don't think we were building too many.
The problem isn't building too many megaprojects, it's building too little infrastructure.

If we don't build walls to hide behind, we'll just be building megaproject for someone to loot from.

Also, it's quite likely that we get access to wonder or higher tier megaprojects by actually building the extended versions of previous projects. By every evidence this how the khem got the pyramids by building lots of mountains.

It's also logical we'd unlock the Great Wall megaproject by building normal walls, and a Grand Temple or Temple-city through building many temples. Evidence for this is us getting grand docks only after we built normal ones.
 
Ancestry and physical appearance is not the sole marker of ethnic identity

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Darn storm cut my internet for a bit.
Basically what i was wondering was what the various ethnic minorities - if any (i mean, for all we know the average "ethnic ymaryn" could be one of dozen sub ethnic groups that identify together but has no majority) - make up our population.

I kniw we have a clear-cut north-south cultural divide with the marches, etc there. But are there more? I think its an interesting topic anyway....
Our social divides are less ethnic identity and more social/geographical position identity due to how we keep mixing people in and out.

You are wrong about this basic walls are only good strategically speaking against raiders not Armies, and we do need to get watchtower up but it's never going to be a priority and pretending voters are going to vote otherwise is dangerous. Losing King of the Hill is always going to be some kind of land lost therefore we will always fight a war to keep it. If you think that the Highlanders or thunder horse could get King of the Hill from us without at least making us give up Txolla you're wrong. It all goes to how we fight Wars, we can't stand the thought of the countryside going up in flames and we will never use the defensive policy as it's never the most efficient option, so we fight hard and fast to the hilt and the way to prepare for that is to get our mercenary Armies set up beforehand and keep the tech edge we have.
The bolded is utter bullshit. Walls changed the cost of defense so dramatically that historically you needed ten to one odds with siegecraft to take truly massive walls, without an extended siege, and even then they often failed because the attacking soldiers could be broken simply by having a good view of seeing the first ranks die horribly trying to force the walls, and even if they won, they have lost a LOT of manpower, and would be hard pressed to take another city. Towers relaying signal fires allowed a given unit of warriors to cover similarly more geography.

That's what makes wars winnable in the transition to professional armies. We can build mercenaries all we want, we'd run out of wealth before we had enough to cover the whole territory.
The bronze age to pre-cannon defense schema was that the attacker always had higher local troop concentration because they choose where to fight, but lower theater troop concentration because the defender always has better logistics to supply a force.

Thus, the attacker's challenge is to attack and overcome locations before defenders could move in theater forces.
Thus, the defender's challenge is to detect attacks and withdraw human assets from the field, to hold off the immediate attack while state armies are moved in place to counter them.

What walls do is change the formula for overcoming locations. Even basic walls require two to one odds to overcome cleanly, but for a large state this is not too difficult to obtain. Five to one odds and a local garrison of 1000 dudes could stop an army dead for months, which is enough time for the state armies to move into position, at which point they can either choose to face hammer and anvil tactics, or they could withdraw to preserve assets.

What towers do is change the loss formula. Without towers, if they attack you WILL lose farms and mines because you don't have enough time to pull back your civilians and militia have no hope of stalling an army in the open field. With towers, you can greatly minimize losses, instead of a 10-20 year loss of productivity of a dead farmer or miner, you lose a few months of productivity to repairing and replacing anything they can smash(burning on the other hand was only really feasible for stuff that could be quickly replaced on the civilization level)

As such the entire model of warfare you're thinking off isn't a real one. Everyone avoided the hell out of big set piece battles where possible because even if you won the battle you lost in terms of sheer manpower invested. Wars were always about striking at and cutting off economic infrastructure, so whoever could make it so that their enemies could afford to take one city every 30 years had won.
...and we already have 100% basic walls(meaning they must have at least twice the local garrison to make a go at it, preferably thrice), and only need to fill in the significant walls and towers.
 
Considering our current passive policy I'm not convinced we really need to focus on building general infrastructure and walls right now.
 
Considering our current passive policy I'm not convinced we really need to focus on building general infrastructure and walls right now.
It's advocacy for towers, not walls. We're unlikely to stay on defense policy for any time, but if we can squeeze out one more passive policy to put on defense we should be okay on the wall end if we don't keep conquering madly.
But towers...towers are cheap, We can build a 20% tower coverage in a single turn of full investment at 2 Econ.

And they prevent things like being surprised on your own territory, which is just embarrassing.
 
The problem isn't building too many megaprojects, it's building too little infrastructure.
Sure, I agree - but then, that's why we choose the passives we choose. It's always somewhat hard to build infrastructure or defense instead of getting shines or extinguishing fires, so they should help, especially with the Law. I will still argue for building some defense stuff midturn or next turn, since people are understandably afraid of staying on Tech 0 or 1 right now.
 
Not bearing on the argument itself, but roads are important. You say our loyalties are in no trouble? How do you know?

I presume you have this opinion because the stat screen says so. A while ago we thought that we had high centralisation too, because the stat screen said so. The first time we built a road in recent memory we found out that the stat screen lied and the centralisation was lower than shown.

As such we know that roads are important in connecting our people and providing us information in a timely manner. It also narratively allows us to move our troops quickly, and well maintained roads mean that people can easily travel to a different polity. This cuts down on exploitation as people can simply leave, and it also cuts down on cultural divergence due this same fact as people interact with each other more and aren't isolated.

Furthermore this very same example shows why infrastructure is important. Focusing on megaprojects is nice, but we wouldn't even have known about the crisis if our roads hadn't been built.

Who knows what other problems are hidden within our society, that we just can't tell because we don't have good infrastructure.

For a modern day society, it's the same as trying to get a man on the moon instead of working on public education, when the latter is significantly lagging.

You make it appear as if Megaprojects are frivolous prestige projects, when that is demonstrably not the case. Megaprojects are big projects that do lots of stuff, no more than that. Our cultural issues could have been solved by the Games, long ago. Our administrative issues could have been revealed and solved by Census and Palace, long ago. The Grand docks, meanwhile, would do Trade and boost naval prowess.

Megaprojects means nothing more and nothing less than : "Big Multiturn Project".

In addition, what makes you think only roads can reveal hidden problems? Maybe a Trade action will reveal smugglers undercutting or problems, or worse, selling our secrets. Maybe a construct walls action will reveal substandard building practices. Any action can be justified with the idea that it may reveal hidden effects.

Roads are not a miracle solution to all our problems, as you appear to think. They're roads, no more, no less.
 
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Not always, often the extended infrastructure has diminishing returns and escalating costs. Often, the wonder gives greater bonusses than it's follow up effects.
Considering the fact that were always on fire when it comes to adm/cultural reasons I would have to disagree that we reached the point were we get diminishing returns on anything other the 'numbers'.
 
The whoresons! In the update with what's her name, she mentioned giving up children for the priests to raise. She was meant as a model for the general conditions of our slums. Now, think about it. We have a shadow organization in our society. Our Blackbirds are compromised in their entirety. How? Well, we have entire generations of people raised by priests, who we draw our Blackbirds from, with very few other connections. If they then recruit the best and brightest as Blackbirds while spreading everyone else throughout society, just like they're supposed to, well, you have an integrated and near invisible domestic spy organization. Raised from birth to be loyal, sympathies with our lower classes, and with a constant replacement mechanic since the lower classes of a society tend to have more kids. Children that have a good chance of living, given our better than average health system.

We've got a straight up mystical secret society going here!

@Academia Nut confirm, deny, or no comment?

I have sympathies to our lower class too, so I count that as a win :p
 
Considering the fact that were always on fire when it comes to adm/cultural reasons I would have to disagree that we reached the point were we get diminishing returns on anything other the 'numbers'.

The diminishing returns are obvious, both in the narrative and numerically. They're not worthless, but we don't loose anything by not building them when it's not needed.

In addition, we have no extended infrastructure to solve cultural issues, and the extended infrastructure object to solve administrive issues has it's clear downsides, and is far less powerfull than the Palace was.

In addition, things are not on fire regarding Administration. We just fixed that issue with the palace (A megaproject).
 
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In addition, we have no extended infrastructure to solve cultural issues
Temples + integration. Would most likely solve the cultural issues.
and the extended infrastructure object to solve administrive issues has it's clear downsides, and is far less powerfull than the Palace was.
Considering the fact that we spent far more on the Palace in terms of actions + resources then any single Extended infrastructure project and that we know that the more you do something the more effective it gets. The reason why our infrastructure project suck is because the thread has been advoiding doing them and thus were behind on them compared to everything else.
 
@10ebbor10 Go back and read the whole ST section where we built roads for the specific purpose of easing a) information communication and b) flow of people which reduced estrangement on both the administrative and cultural levels. Admittedly we also did this through holy site establishment, I.e. Temples. It doesn't mean that roads don't reduce administrative overhead and increase cultural uniformity by simply making it easier to reach other places. It doesn't mean that temples don't reduce cultural and religious divergence by establishing multiple and thus non bipolar religious centers and increasing incentive to visit foreign places as an act of pilgrimage, which would obviously reduce cultural divergence through exposure to alternate values.

Yeah, Libraries and Temples are less effective than their original mega project. Because they cost a fifth of the actions. Mega projects do cool shit but they are not the end all and be all of actions.
 
[X] [Main] Build Annex - Arsenal
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X] [Secondary] Support Artisans

If we could fit a Study Alchemy in here we could throw a Hwacha at them?
 
Roads to make it easier to reach trees.
But if we just planted trees everywhere, people wouldn't need roads to reach them!

Temples to make it easier to praise tree's.
Though our Temples have a pretty good Tree to Not-Tree rate, they still don't quite reach the levels that our Sacred Forests do, which sadly makes them inferior in tree-praising areas.

Libraries to make it easier to teach about tree care.
But the best and most important tool when it comes to teaching tree care is the trees themselves, therefore we should plant more trees to increase our knowledge of trees.

Aqueducts to make it easier to water tree's.
... Yeah, this is an important step in tree care. Our little babies are thirsty.
 
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