So, I'm really trying to figure out why everyone here is so gung-ho about the spirit related actions. Is it just people metagaming because of Amber Age? There has been no indication at all of supernatural dealings in the quest so far. Everything we've heard so far in game essentially boils down to the kind of stuff primitive cultures develop to explain why there was a drought or why the drought ended. The fact is, we have done nothing to even address possible supernatural powers, and nothing has happened for good or ill. So, honestly, spending a major action on spirit related miscellany is a waste of a good action, at this point.
The PowerofMind faction (which I partly support) wants religion because religion helps with art, culture, science, and literacy. The faction against this faction (which I partly support) believe that there are other, paratheistic routes to those things.

The Gung-ho Gang is def just like "We want Amber Age 3.0^-1" or are just fond of the lusher descriptions that come with gods.
 
One thing I am concerned about is the Centralization 3, Hierarchy 2 stats we have under Organizational. I'm not really sure what they mean and if they're good for us, so if someone could explain it to me I'd be grateful.
It's been asked
What's with the gold number Academia?
You're pushing into the point where you're getting over-centralized for your technology and social organization. You're lucky you developed a tolerance recently.
So it's how easy we can get our people to follow directions but too much would cause problems.
Also, we now have a list of technologies!
Actually that's been there for a while now, since the forest action actually.
For now, I'm going to pick:
[X] Fishing Village
[X] Support Fishers

Fuck it. MAXIMUM BEFRIENDING HO!
Aww, why the switch? Step-Farms would help ensure we would be better prepared for the next drought. That means when it does come(because of course it will) we could spend more time helping our peers.

[X] Fishing Village
[X] Support Fishers

Always chasing the shiny worked wonders (terrifying, horrible wonders) for Harz, might as well get back in the swing of things now.
Step-Farming is new, why not try that?:)
I'm concerned that if we do step farming THE FORESTS WILL CEASE TO EXIST or otherwise play a role in our economy.
I um, don't know how to better explain than to quote AN at you
However, in the efforts to replant areas where they had cut faster than the forest could regrow, and the people noticed something. Generations of working with irrigation in the hills and the flooding season in the valley had given them all a keen eye and awareness of how water flowed and could cut the land. They'd never really looked before, but in seeing bare areas where they were trying to plant get washed away in the spring rains while the older forest had the roots cling to the soil, their eyes lit up in enlightenment. Now that they were paying attention, they could also see how the forest soil was rich, where lowering down on the hills where they had cut away trees and bushes for fields they had to abandon the farms every few years because the soil became thin without the floodwaters of the river.

The trees were clearly important
, the people just hadn't looked at what they might be doing. But they knew soil and water and they needed this now. They talked with the people of the forest who their heir, and then actual Big Man, brought to look over things, and they started to try things. Selective burning seemed to help, and it was distinctly noted that the black ash seemed to make the soil universally better, and staking down mats of reeds and fibres within the mud seemed to reduce the way the rains could cut it away and remove the tree seeds they tried to grow. Which direction they grew trees in was also clearly important, and they paid attention to how the trees could be aligned to best slow the water on the hills instead of creating channels... or they could deliberately create channels to collect water for their own uses.

It was costly, oh how it was costly to just feed people to do things that didn't directly result in grain, but as Cwryl's hair grew grey and he watched his grandchildren grow up, he knew that he was getting results...
Expand Managed Forests - The forests atop the hills surrounding your valley are now an integral part of your water management system as well as providing materials and the occasional bit of game. Expanding onto the back side of the hills can only bring more benefit

The Forest is important part of our village, it would not be destroyed.

It would decentralize us and etc., but, I feel, the increase in our variety in economics is a positive. It doesn't matter if they're just a fishing village now; in a dozen turns we will be a trading one. It might, however, harm us if we're weaker in the short term and the lowlanders come and beat us up. How would you address this issue, and counterbalance it with the risk that we might not be able to incorporate them later and thus will be trapped as an inland polity for a while?
I don't see how having the fishing village semi integrated would stop the lowlanders from coming. As to the issue of not being able to incorperate them later, why would we be not? The expedition to the Fishing village is far in the lead and that would ensure that we have good relations with them. I don't see why we wouldn't be able to get to them later?
Judging from the fact that Animism is our Science level? It'll probably give us a leg up on that be refining our Lore-keeping abilities, and thus our understanding of the world.

In short: The Religion debate is over, in the context of this quest: it is officially tied to the People's knowledge, and their ability to preserve it.
False, that is Administration.
???

I'm not sure you're getting it. Sure, there might be a major trading port somewhere in the world right now. Maybe.

But right now, for us, a fishing village is about as exotic as it gets. It doesn't matter if they aren't anything special as fishing villages go. We don't know of any other fishing villages around. That means our neighbors probably don't know of any other fishing villages around either. If we set up a trade route with the fishing village, some of them might go to the fishing village for goods... But others might come to us, since we have the fishing village's goods, and goods from our overland traders, and typically a surplus of our own crops, and a reputation for treating strangers fairly.

In terms of our overall strategy toward making us capable of trade and becoming a trade hub, helping the fishing village seems like maintaining the focus that we have, not diverting our attention.

Frankly, the reason that the fishing village didn't help us or other villages is that there are just too damn many farming villages to help them all and just the one fishing village. So yeah, they're not a dime-a-dozen group, at least not yet.
But we aren't traders. If you want that then option would be trade expeditions.

As to your final reason, it's more because they focused on harvesting shells than expanding fishing. The reason they helped and heard of us is that we are directly east of them. They aren't going to disappear in just a few years.
Helping the fishing village expand both quantity of food, trade, and allows us the opportunity to expand technologically through the shipbuilding industry.
Building the Step-Farms helps with the first two and ultimately expanding the forest would help with the last. The faster we can ensure that we always have food, the more time we can spend on external projects.

As of yet, trade goods are nice, but we have no pressing need for it. Not like helping avoid the disaster of this drought or ensuring stability in preparation for the lowlanders.
The PowerofMind faction (which I partly support) wants religion because religion helps with art, culture, science, and literacy. The faction against this faction (which I partly support) believe that there are other, paratheistic routes to those things.

The Gung-ho Gang is def just like "We want Amber Age 3.0^-1" or are just fond of the lusher descriptions that come with gods.
Ironically, Powerofmind is the de facto leader of the third one:lol
 
Unless you are wrong, and spirits and the divine do exist if you try to engage with them. Then ignoring it and hoping the settlement investing heavily into spirituality is wrong could end in disaster.
If he is wrong then its because there is literally zero indication of the supernatural
 
You're pushing into the point where you're getting over-centralized for your technology and social organization. You're lucky you developed a tolerance recently.

So basically we need to start either decentralizing again(trade, expand settlement, expand forestry), or pick up a secondary leadership class(i.e. priests from spirits to handle advice on how to care for land, animals, etc, or expanded bureaucracy from organize settlement so not everyone has to bug the Big Man for answers to problems) to deal with it.

Centralization isn't inherently a problem, but it requires that the Center(currently Big Man and Chiefs) be able to cope with knowing what to tell people to do and cover problems. We're a bit past the safe point where it's starting to exceed the ability of the Big Man to micromanage everything, but communal culture and, caretaker culture meant that people would generally autopilot their agriculture and land management, so we don't face immediate consequences like fucking up the planting.
 
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Also who's the new Big Man/Woman, I thought Crwyl was stepping down?

Crwyl passed on about thirty years ago. Time skips by fast in this game. I won't always figure out names for people, although there is probably enough personal drama for this update cycle that I should name the Big Man.

What kind of problems would we get for being over-centralized?

"The capital is totally disconnected from reality and has no idea what's going on."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that without prior approval."
"Man, hauling grain to one silo becomes a giant pain when we're so far away."

And so on and so forth. Centralization will generally rise with time, but it has its downsides. While more robust and able to do things, highly centralized states can also become crippled with stagnation and rigidity. More advanced social and technological systems allow for centralization to rise without crippling the system.
 
Crwyl passed on about thirty years ago. Time skips by fast in this game. I won't always figure out names for people, although there is probably enough personal drama for this update cycle that I should name the Big Man.



"The capital is totally disconnected from reality and has no idea what's going on."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that without prior approval."
"Man, hauling grain to one silo becomes a giant pain when we're so far away."

And so on and so forth. Centralization will generally rise with time, but it has its downsides. While more robust and able to do things, highly centralized states can also become crippled with stagnation and rigidity. More advanced social and technological systems allow for centralization to rise without crippling the system.
You'd think overcentralization wouldn't really matter when were not that big a city, with only one settlement.
I mean the Capital in this case is literally our only settlement :p
Edit: Also... We need to update the title of our leader, cause were starting to get to a point that calling him the BIG MAN sounds kinda lame :p
 
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I um, don't know how to better explain than to quote AN at you
The Forest is important part of our village, it would not be destroyed.
It's definitely been important in the past but if you look at irl step farms, most of them don't have a forest at the top of the hill, still. But I guess I'll concede. I still want WoG/QM tho.

I don't see how having the fishing village semi integrated would stop the lowlanders from coming. As to the issue of not being able to incorporate them later, why would we be not? The expedition to the Fishing village is far in the lead and that would ensure that we have good relations with them. I don't see why we wouldn't be able to get to them later?

Building the Step-Farms helps with the first two and ultimately expanding the forest would help with the last. The faster we can ensure that we always have food, the more time we can spend on external projects.

As of yet, trade goods are nice, but we have no pressing need for it. Not like helping avoid the disaster of this drought or ensuring stability in preparation for the lowlanders.

Ironically, Powerofmind is the de facto leader of the third one:lol
I never argued that it would prevent the lowlanders from coming. What matters is if they come in the short/medium term, when we're recovering from reaching out to the fishers, or if they come after.

I'm worried that if we approach them when they're strong they'll be less inclined to join us, as we'll be approaching them as equals.

I agree that either Step Farms or Expand Settlement are the most stable options... but the village.. the shiny sea...
"The capital is totally disconnected from reality and has no idea what's going on."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that without prior approval."
"Man, hauling grain to one silo becomes a giant pain when we're so far away."

And so on and so forth. Centralization will generally rise with time, but it has its downsides. While more robust and able to do things, highly centralized states can also become crippled with stagnation and rigidity. More advanced social and technological systems allow for centralization to rise without crippling the system.
Maybe Organize Settlement will help with this? If we reorder everything we'll have more optimal and better spread technology, cus it looks like organize settlement will rearrange/make efficient how our buildings are placed.

The best technology we could have rn, other than nanotech and divine magic, are tablets for recordkeeping and messages to help our central gov figure stuff out. Or town councils that lead up to a larger one or something.
 
If he is wrong then its because there is literally zero indication of the supernatural
Aside from the the city getting heavily involved in the spiritual and impressing everyone that went there, and the possible gate to the underworld. If we Dodge every chance to investigate if there are spirits or the supernatural then claiming there is no evidence is a pretty weak defense.
 
Unless you are wrong, and spirits and the divine do exist if you try to engage with them. Then ignoring it and hoping the settlement investing heavily into spirituality is wrong could end in disaster.

You literally just said "but if you're wrong" when my point is that being wrong doesn't matter. We have no proof it is even a part of this quest, and things have gone very well for us just ignoring it, so there is every reason to continue as we are, and none at all to do otherwise. Make no mistake, our people are obviously practicing Animism of some sort. It's in our tech tree. So we are always goo to hear stuff about the spirits, but the whole thing here is about making it a focus of our society or just letting it grow organically from our moral and societal values into a base form of spiritualism.

Animism is about nature, if you want to get philosophical about it, we are essentially building a temple by protecting the forest, and offering tithe and sacrifice by working the soil.

The other settlement has apparently pushed very hard in that direction, if we switch now, we are just turning into jacks of all trades, and there's a saying for that.
 
Aside from the the city getting heavily involved in the spiritual and impressing everyone that went there, and the possible gate to the underworld. If we Dodge every chance to investigate if there are spirits or the supernatural then claiming there is no evidence is a pretty weak defense.
I mean if there are Spirits their so weak and irrelevant as to not matter otherwise we would already be aware of their existence beyond pure faith that they do.
 
Man, hauling grain to one silo becomes a giant pain when we're so far away."
So
[] Organize Settlement
Is definitely on the the to do list soon

Not sure how to deal with the other two without bureaucracy...
It's definitely been important in the past but if you look at irl step farms, most of them don't have a forest at the top of the hill, still. But I guess I'll concede. I still want WoG/QM tho.
Fair.

@Academia Nut will Step-Farms replace the Forest?
I'm worried that if we approach them when they're strong they'll be less inclined to join us, as we'll be approaching them as equals.
Why? It was through us that they manage to get out of the hole they were in. Also the traders were our equals and they still integrated. Why not the Fishers?
I agree that either Step Farms or Expand Settlement are the most stable options... but the village.. the shiny sea...
It will still be there don't you fret. Step-Farms now means knowledge how to better use our land and potentially upgrade our Gardeners of the Land even further, which is nice.
 
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I do want to set up a temple or something later on, but it's not really a big priority for me at the moment.

Aww, why the switch? Step-Farms would help ensure we would be better prepared for the next drought. That means when it does come(because of course it will) we could spend more time helping our peers.

But the sea, it calls me!



Also, I want that shiny synergy bonus.

"The capital is totally disconnected from reality and has no idea what's going on."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that without prior approval."
"Man, hauling grain to one silo becomes a giant pain when we're so far away."

And so on and so forth. Centralization will generally rise with time, but it has its downsides. While more robust and able to do things, highly centralized states can also become crippled with stagnation and rigidity. More advanced social and technological systems allow for centralization to rise without crippling the system.

Ah, I get it. So what would be the best way to handle this? The only thing I can think of is the Expand Settlement or Organize Settlement projects.
 
we need to invest in transportation tech if we want to add other settlements to our faction or if we build more settlements
 
So
[] Organize Settlement
Is definitely on the the to do list soon

Not sure how to deal with the other two without bureaucracy...

Fair.

@Academia Nut will Step-Farms replace the Forest?

Why? It was through us that they manage to get out of the hole they were in. Also the traders were our equals and they still integrated. Why not the Fishers?

It will still be there don't you fret. Step-Farms now means knowledge how to better use our land and potentially upgrade our Gardeners of the Land even further, which is nice.
Sigh... fine...
[x] Fishing Village
[x] Step Farms


lol nvm I'm still witholding my vote change.

I do want to set up a temple or something later on, but it's not really a big priority for me at the moment.


Also, I want that shiny synergy bonus.

Ah, I get it. So what would be the best way to handle this? The only thing I can think of is the Expand Settlement or Organize Settlement projects.
Don't go down the dark path!!
I want the shiny bonus too... *sobs* why do I have to choose
I think the bonus will either be an upgrade to eye for an eye or an extra trait. It's unlikely to be an automerger... My vote change will depend on what the shiny might be.

Organize Settlement will solve this. Expand Settlement will just increase the space we own and the pop size w/o solving anything.
 
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Aside from the the city getting heavily involved in the spiritual and impressing everyone that went there, and the possible gate to the underworld. If we Dodge every chance to investigate if there are spirits or the supernatural then claiming there is no evidence is a pretty weak defense.

Look, give me one example from any part of this quest that isn't just primitive people being primitive. The "underworld gate" was a damn volcano, and noxious gases in those make you hallucinate. The "spirit people" are probably religious, and have formalized it. Ever been to Jerusalem? I'm agnostic and that was a fairly spiritual experience for me, regardless of my personal beliefs.

By an example,I mean a manifested spirit that hunts down lions, forcing crops to grow, or creating giant shoggoth children.

As is, pointing at the other guy and telling us we could be wrong because "look at them" is useless. We have no idea how successful they really are, but we do know how successful we are. We have engendered goodwill from all our neighbors, and survived a crippling drought that likely killed off every small settlement around us. We are extremely successful as far as primitive civs go, and I'll say it again, we've done it without any formal acknowledgement for or against the supernatural. Let's keep on with what works and not waste grain.

Edit: I'll also say this, but everyone who has come to our settlement has also been impressed. I'll bet the people the next town over have heard about the "garden of the valley" and are wondering what we're doing so well. If you want to know about the spirits, there's far easier ways to test that than spending years building it, have our trade buddies go invite a priest to come by. Problem solved.
 
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But the sea, it calls me!
Don't despair, we're still going on the expedition to the Fishing Village! It will all work out!
Also, I want that shiny synergy bonus.

Don't go down the dark path!!
I want the shiny bonus too... *sobs* why do I have to choose
I think the bonus will either be an upgrade to eye for an eye or an extra trait. It's unlikely to be an automerger... My vote change will depend on what the shiny might be.
But Step-Farms is also a shiny and has synergy bonus:cry:

It benefits the forest and the fields.
 
Poll: Who supports the spirits and who does not? Hug for support, insightful for oppose, informative for neutral. Or reply, I guess. It's just harder to count that way.

Don't despair, we're still going on the expedition to the Fishing Village! It will all work out!

But Step-Farms is also a shiny and has synergy bonus:cry:

It benefits the forest and the fields.
What's the syn bonus w/? Gardeners doesn't count, that's just a buff >.>... which we won't lose by waiting a bit.
 
Not sure if this has been answered, but [Choose an Expedition... Fishing Village], will that help the ocean people or just be an expedition to incite trade, and get a read on the people there? Leaving the [Major project... Support Fishers] the only way to help.
 
Poll: Who supports the spirits and who does not? Hug for support, insightful for oppose, informative for neutral. Or reply, I guess. It's just harder to count that way.


What's the syn bonus w/? Gardeners doesn't count, that's just a buff >.>... which we won't lose by waiting a bit.
I fervently am against the spirits, in least they actually appear then they don't exist and the only benefit worshipping these ghosts is zilch.
The benefits we actually get are just a side effect of religion.
 
By an example mean a manifested spirit hunts down lions, forcing crops to grow, or creating giant shoggoth children.
So until we see it for ourselves you refuse to believe there is a chance anything supernatural is in this quest, but you refuse to vote to go to the places where there might be evidence one way or another or to invest resources into building something that might prove it as well. I understand where you are coming from and will go on disagreeing.
 
Not sure if this has been answered, but [Choose an Expedition... Fishing Village], will that help the ocean people or just be an expedition to incite trade, and get a read on the people there? Leaving the [Major project... Support Fishers] the only way to help.
It will help the fishing village.


And yeah, seeing it with our own eyes is the only way to know it exists. Acting on baseless hope is lame.
 
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Don't despair, we're still going on the expedition to the Fishing Village! It will all work out!

But Step-Farms is also a shiny and has synergy bonus:cry:

It benefits the forest and the fields.

Aaaarrggghh! So hard to choose!

Seriously, the Step Farms are also really tempting, but I don't think it'll hurt us to wait a bit.

No, not with your knowledge of the importance of the trees to the overall systemic health of agriculture.

Ayy, nice! Looks like our Gardeners trait is still paying off!

You don't actually have the tools to effectively deal with it. I recommend fumbling about in the dark until you trip over a solution.

*Gasp*

It's so obvious! We need to invent a torchlight so that we can see in the dark!
 
: I'll also say this, but everyone who has come to our settlement has also been impressed. I'll bet the people the next town over have heard about the "garden of the valley" and are wondering what we're doing so well.

There are basically four major settlement groups that anyone talks about. The valley people are known for being workaholics, but holy shit do their infrastructure projects impress.

The spirit talkers are a central trading and cultural hub where during a drought, people bring them food.

The fishing village has plenty of food and is a trading point because they have incredible luxury goods.

The lowlanders are asshole!SV who have discovered a cheap combo and they keep pressing the same button every turn. They were doing frightfully well up until the GM pointed out that their strategy was dependent upon unlimited growth unconstrained by environmental factors. They've been bitching for two turns now.
 
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