Exactly. veekie is like gold for the thread - even if he does sometimes annoy me - because of how valuable he is, and valuable items are always good sacrifices. As for maximillian, well, I've heard sheep and goat meat generally makes for good sacrifices
. )
Do you have any opinion on simultaneous Games and Census?*Looks at megaproject arguing*
Time to pull out the List again. Updated, but skipping the Palace since it's likely to be done by the time I post anyway
This is based on the so far validated theory that megaproject results and advances tend to stem from three elements, what they need to be made, what they actually do(which is often the least important) and what social consequences do they cause which triggers adaptation.
The Census
-What does it need:
--Statistics to make sense of the census information, early algebra to manage the numbers.
---Triggers advances in Administrative math(aka the math of large numbers, means, medians and modes)
-What does it do:
--Provide unprecedented levels of information about our population, which translates to greater effectiveness for collective actions and calling up the Yeomanry without hurting the harvest.
---Provides bonuses to Collective Action.
---Improves our ability to deal with Over-martial from We Have Reserves(since with the Census we can manage the number of people called up rather than sending out a general call to arms).
---Improves our awareness of some social issues.
---Improves our ability to distribute inbound refugees without stressing local systems.
-What are it's consequences:
--Increased administrative burden requires more complex hierarchy to handle(or maybe our bullshit high level of Hierarchy has it covered)
--Increased information will both ease false perceptions of unfair treatment and amplify the fuss of true inequalities, which will need to be addressed.
-Where to put it:
--N/A
The Games
-What does it need:
--Improved logistics network to get competitors from across the land to the venue, and to ensure that the venue has enough resources to house all the competitors AND audience.
---Triggers either logistics advances or stockpiling/exemptions for competitors.
--More complex sports concepts are needed
---Triggers sports development beyond martial training exercises
-What does it do:
--Provides a new form of festival.
---Triggers altered rewards for Improve Annual Festival or unlocks Build Stadium
--Provides stronger cultural identity with a grand national festival where all parts of the empire will have their elites gather and mix
-What are it's consequences:
--Increased ways to earn merit causes differences in merit awarding to become more overt.
---Triggers development of standardized awards and trophies to mark prestige.
--Increased social stratification between the elite who can travel to the Games and win honors(and thus grow in social status) and the commons, who cannot afford to travel and thus will not be able to win honors and rise in status.
--Gathering of the influential and elite across the land will provoke development of elite subculture.
--Gathering of people and logistics from across the land will provoke development of advanced markets and entertainments(after all they can't JUST watch the Games, especially those who're just here to support their province champions, it's not like Sacred Forest will be competing in the chariot races
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Redshore
---Ship racing, diving and other aquatic sports becomes possible. Improvements in cultural ability to swim.
---Cliffs enable rock climbing and similar feats
--Northshore
---Ship racing, diving and other major aquatic sports becomes possible. Improvements in cultural ability to swim.
---Some allowance for horse and chariot racing
--Stonepen
---Horse and chariot races more significant.
Grand Docks
-What does it need:
--Shitloads more artisans and ways to combine their efforts. Truely large ships cannot be built by individuals
---Eased by building lots of docks first
--Shitloads more wood, particularly old growth, tall straight trees.
---Eased by growing lots of forests
---Eased by gaining Northern tree breeds.
-What does it do:
--Develops the infrastructure to construct truly large vessels.
---Likely changes Build Docks to an infrastructure project
--Makes bulk ship construction far more economical
-What are it's consequences:
--Dock consumption of all resources will trigger True City stresses in short order.
--Collective artisan efforts to build large ships puts progess towards assembly line, though still a long way to go
--Grand Docks will cause ecological disruption from human presence.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Whichever temple sites are coastal(Holy Sea/Redshore, White Circle/Northshore) - Greatly expanded pilgrimage power.
--Black River - Greatly improved northern riverine traffic. Greatly improved northern coastal traffic. Vulnerable to Nomad raids. Lack of native forestry access. Northern Trade Post timber access(may be screwed up by Northern Canal and Northern Dam).
--Northshore - Greatly improved northern coastal traffic. Improved core coastal traffic. Access to old growth forestry from Sacred Forest. Small vulnerability to Nomad raids(in that there are some forested hills here for a long time already)
--Redshore - Greatly improved core coastal traffic. Improved northern coastal traffic. Improved southern coastal traffic. Major access to old growth forestry from Sacred Forest. Basically immune to raids. Long established trade hub to use.
--Southshore - Greatly improved southern coastal traffic. Improved core coastal traffic. Has some native forestry access. Basically immune to raids.
--Hatriver - Greatly improved southern coastal traffic. Greatly improved Hathatyn riverine traffic(which translates to boosted metal extraction). Has existing Hathatyn forestry access. Potentially vulnerable to Trelli or Highlander raids.
Great Dam
-What does it need:
--Improvements in architecture to support significant amounts of water.
---Triggers formalizing the concept of Foundations.
---Triggers development of buttresses
--Improvements in controlling the flow of water
---Not much NEEDED really, so this is just bonus points.
-What does it do:
--Provides a large, stable supply of water for resistance to climate disruption
--Potentially hides/bypasses a section of impassable land for much more passable water.
-What are it's consequences:
--Major changes to hydrology will alter the ecosystem
---Enabling Chinampas in areas which normally wouldn't be able to.
--Providing a large, stable source of pressurized water
---Makes water power far more reliable, which spurs advances in water power and mechanisms.
---Makes aqueducts from the dam far more economical
--Dams can fail, which is very !!fun!! to everything downriver.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Above upper valleyhome - Provides massive, reliable water supply and hydropower to our core civilization. But when it fails it will rip the heart out of our civilization.
--Below lower valleyhome - Provides large artificial lake for freshwater fish farms and chinampas developments. Can be used to irrigate Eastern Hills.
--Cataracts - Provides large artificial lake for freshwater fish farms and chinampas developments. Can be used to irrigate PTSD-chan. Should bypass badlands geography by flooding slot canyons, allowing longships to sail the whole length of the river, portage past the Dam and improving riverine trade to the lowlands. Vulnerable to hostile action(though I doubt anyone actually could both pull it off and want to pull it off)
Place to the Stars
-What does it need:
--Maths. Specifically, geometry and motion.
---Improves Geometry beyond the current needs of architecture to measure, record and describe star positions, particularly the rise of trigonometric concepts. This translates to better architecture, mapping and surveying over time.
---Improves mathematics for calculating trajectories(which is necessary for stone throwers and ballistas to become a thing) and orbits. Develops the concept of intangible forces.
--Measurement tools for objects out of reach.
---The sextant, telescope, etc will arise depending on available resources and materials. While they can arise naturally from seafaring, astronomy would vastly accelerate the process.
----Clear glass or supply of fine quartz to create lenses will spur optical glass and from there telescopes. Mirrors as well will feature
----Sextants we do have all the parts for.
--Construction precision
---Astronomical structures requires high level of precision, which will spur development of precise stoneworking and/or concrete to produce the necessary marks to measure the motion of celestial bodies.
--Time measurement becomes significant in order to obtain accurate fixes on celestial body motions
---A means of measuring the span of hours in a night will be useful, but not essential.
---A calendar to measure the seasonal motion of stars over a year is essential.
---Calendars spanning decades may arise if we have enough windup information.
-What does it do:
--Establish actual star charts, which are invaluable for navigation.
---This should unlock straight line navigation across the Black Sea through navigating by the stars rather than dead reckoning, which is going to be completely bullshit for traders.
--Development of an astronomical institution.
---Enhances and/or automates Study Stars action
---Potentially unlocks lesser observatories as temple extensions.
-What are it's consequences:
--The many faceted fallout from mathematics improvements in everything from construction and engineering to navigation and artillery.
--The Place to the Stars will be a central gathering point for priests from all our Holy Sites to make use of the unique facilities, which, given supporting logistics, will help reduce cultural divergences.
--Increased attention to the skies will make weather fluctations more noticeable before they become major, enhancing weather prediction, as well as provide early warning of potentially panic inducing comets.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Star Mirror - Fixed view of sky from reflecting pool provides great detail observation of a single section of the sky over the years with minimal modification, which is particularly helpful for establishing mathematics improvements. Being near the sea means that structures will focus on the denoting the view across the sea to the south for studies of the sky, so a greater focus on the stars than sun and moon except when they transit the Mirror. Location makes it a very accessible site for priests from anywhere in the country. Take this if you're in it for the math improvements and cultural unity purposes.
--Horse Valley - Wide view of sky provides great range of observation. More general study of the sky, but much less accessible as a gathering place for priests. Depending on the angle of the canyon, it may be a very good place to study the motion of the sun and moon. Take this if you are in it for the weather prediction, and spotting comets.
Not sure if anyone would read this though...
Interesting, thanks for doing this.*Looks at megaproject arguing*
Time to pull out the List again. Updated, but skipping the Palace since it's likely to be done by the time I post anyway
This is based on the so far validated theory that megaproject results and advances tend to stem from three elements, what they need to be made, what they actually do(which is often the least important) and what social consequences do they cause which triggers adaptation.
The Census
-What does it need:
--Statistics to make sense of the census information, early algebra to manage the numbers.
---Triggers advances in Administrative math(aka the math of large numbers, means, medians and modes)
-What does it do:
--Provide unprecedented levels of information about our population, which translates to greater effectiveness for collective actions and calling up the Yeomanry without hurting the harvest.
---Provides bonuses to Collective Action.
---Improves our ability to deal with Over-martial from We Have Reserves(since with the Census we can manage the number of people called up rather than sending out a general call to arms).
---Improves our awareness of some social issues.
---Improves our ability to distribute inbound refugees without stressing local systems.
-What are it's consequences:
--Increased administrative burden requires more complex hierarchy to handle(or maybe our bullshit high level of Hierarchy has it covered)
--Increased information will both ease false perceptions of unfair treatment and amplify the fuss of true inequalities, which will need to be addressed.
-Where to put it:
--N/A
The Games
-What does it need:
--Improved logistics network to get competitors from across the land to the venue, and to ensure that the venue has enough resources to house all the competitors AND audience.
---Triggers either logistics advances or stockpiling/exemptions for competitors.
--More complex sports concepts are needed
---Triggers sports development beyond martial training exercises
-What does it do:
--Provides a new form of festival.
---Triggers altered rewards for Improve Annual Festival or unlocks Build Stadium
--Provides stronger cultural identity with a grand national festival where all parts of the empire will have their elites gather and mix
-What are it's consequences:
--Increased ways to earn merit causes differences in merit awarding to become more overt.
---Triggers development of standardized awards and trophies to mark prestige.
--Increased social stratification between the elite who can travel to the Games and win honors(and thus grow in social status) and the commons, who cannot afford to travel and thus will not be able to win honors and rise in status.
--Gathering of the influential and elite across the land will provoke development of elite subculture.
--Gathering of people and logistics from across the land will provoke development of advanced markets and entertainments(after all they can't JUST watch the Games, especially those who're just here to support their province champions, it's not like Sacred Forest will be competing in the chariot races
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Redshore
---Ship racing, diving and other aquatic sports becomes possible. Improvements in cultural ability to swim.
---Cliffs enable rock climbing and similar feats
--Northshore
---Ship racing, diving and other major aquatic sports becomes possible. Improvements in cultural ability to swim.
---Some allowance for horse and chariot racing
--Stonepen
---Horse and chariot races more significant.
Grand Docks
-What does it need:
--Shitloads more artisans and ways to combine their efforts. Truely large ships cannot be built by individuals
---Eased by building lots of docks first
--Shitloads more wood, particularly old growth, tall straight trees.
---Eased by growing lots of forests
---Eased by gaining Northern tree breeds.
-What does it do:
--Develops the infrastructure to construct truly large vessels.
---Likely changes Build Docks to an infrastructure project
--Makes bulk ship construction far more economical
-What are it's consequences:
--Dock consumption of all resources will trigger True City stresses in short order.
--Collective artisan efforts to build large ships puts progess towards assembly line, though still a long way to go
--Grand Docks will cause ecological disruption from human presence.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Whichever temple sites are coastal(Holy Sea/Redshore, White Circle/Northshore) - Greatly expanded pilgrimage power.
--Black River - Greatly improved northern riverine traffic. Greatly improved northern coastal traffic. Vulnerable to Nomad raids. Lack of native forestry access. Northern Trade Post timber access(may be screwed up by Northern Canal and Northern Dam).
--Northshore - Greatly improved northern coastal traffic. Improved core coastal traffic. Access to old growth forestry from Sacred Forest. Small vulnerability to Nomad raids(in that there are some forested hills here for a long time already)
--Redshore - Greatly improved core coastal traffic. Improved northern coastal traffic. Improved southern coastal traffic. Major access to old growth forestry from Sacred Forest. Basically immune to raids. Long established trade hub to use.
--Southshore - Greatly improved southern coastal traffic. Improved core coastal traffic. Has some native forestry access. Basically immune to raids.
--Hatriver - Greatly improved southern coastal traffic. Greatly improved Hathatyn riverine traffic(which translates to boosted metal extraction). Has existing Hathatyn forestry access. Potentially vulnerable to Trelli or Highlander raids.
Great Dam
-What does it need:
--Improvements in architecture to support significant amounts of water.
---Triggers formalizing the concept of Foundations.
---Triggers development of buttresses
--Improvements in controlling the flow of water
---Not much NEEDED really, so this is just bonus points.
-What does it do:
--Provides a large, stable supply of water for resistance to climate disruption
--Potentially hides/bypasses a section of impassable land for much more passable water.
-What are it's consequences:
--Major changes to hydrology will alter the ecosystem
---Enabling Chinampas in areas which normally wouldn't be able to.
--Providing a large, stable source of pressurized water
---Makes water power far more reliable, which spurs advances in water power and mechanisms.
---Makes aqueducts from the dam far more economical
--Dams can fail, which is very !!fun!! to everything downriver.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Above upper valleyhome - Provides massive, reliable water supply and hydropower to our core civilization. But when it fails it will rip the heart out of our civilization.
--Below lower valleyhome - Provides large artificial lake for freshwater fish farms and chinampas developments. Can be used to irrigate Eastern Hills.
--Cataracts - Provides large artificial lake for freshwater fish farms and chinampas developments. Can be used to irrigate PTSD-chan. Should bypass badlands geography by flooding slot canyons, allowing longships to sail the whole length of the river, portage past the Dam and improving riverine trade to the lowlands. Vulnerable to hostile action(though I doubt anyone actually could both pull it off and want to pull it off)
Place to the Stars
-What does it need:
--Maths. Specifically, geometry and motion.
---Improves Geometry beyond the current needs of architecture to measure, record and describe star positions, particularly the rise of trigonometric concepts. This translates to better architecture, mapping and surveying over time.
---Improves mathematics for calculating trajectories(which is necessary for stone throwers and ballistas to become a thing) and orbits. Develops the concept of intangible forces.
--Measurement tools for objects out of reach.
---The sextant, telescope, etc will arise depending on available resources and materials. While they can arise naturally from seafaring, astronomy would vastly accelerate the process.
----Clear glass or supply of fine quartz to create lenses will spur optical glass and from there telescopes. Mirrors as well will feature
----Sextants we do have all the parts for.
--Construction precision
---Astronomical structures requires high level of precision, which will spur development of precise stoneworking and/or concrete to produce the necessary marks to measure the motion of celestial bodies.
--Time measurement becomes significant in order to obtain accurate fixes on celestial body motions
---A means of measuring the span of hours in a night will be useful, but not essential.
---A calendar to measure the seasonal motion of stars over a year is essential.
---Calendars spanning decades may arise if we have enough windup information.
-What does it do:
--Establish actual star charts, which are invaluable for navigation.
---This should unlock straight line navigation across the Black Sea through navigating by the stars rather than dead reckoning, which is going to be completely bullshit for traders.
--Development of an astronomical institution.
---Enhances and/or automates Study Stars action
---Potentially unlocks lesser observatories as temple extensions.
-What are it's consequences:
--The many faceted fallout from mathematics improvements in everything from construction and engineering to navigation and artillery.
--The Place to the Stars will be a central gathering point for priests from all our Holy Sites to make use of the unique facilities, which, given supporting logistics, will help reduce cultural divergences.
--Increased attention to the skies will make weather fluctations more noticeable before they become major, enhancing weather prediction, as well as provide early warning of potentially panic inducing comets.
-Where to put it(listing only minor interest points because effort):
--Star Mirror - Fixed view of sky from reflecting pool provides great detail observation of a single section of the sky over the years with minimal modification, which is particularly helpful for establishing mathematics improvements. Being near the sea means that structures will focus on the denoting the view across the sea to the south for studies of the sky, so a greater focus on the stars than sun and moon except when they transit the Mirror. Location makes it a very accessible site for priests from anywhere in the country. Take this if you're in it for the math improvements and cultural unity purposes.
--Horse Valley - Wide view of sky provides great range of observation. More general study of the sky, but much less accessible as a gathering place for priests. Depending on the angle of the canyon, it may be a very good place to study the motion of the sun and moon. Take this if you are in it for the weather prediction, and spotting comets.
Not sure if anyone would read this though...
Wouldn't using a ballista/scorpion to fire a bolt with a chain to effectively harpoon a ship be a pretty effective way of bringing a ship into boarding range on favorable terms?
I see, I see. *rolls some dice while cryptically chanting* Yes it has been foretold!
Sadly we don't have that, however we may be able to cheat using sulfur compounds or something else nasty derived from our tailing pits.
I'm hearing a lot of develop catamarans
It's quite possibly not that far out. Rendering quicklime from limestone with a kiln is pretty straightforward, and there's a chance our mortar is actually lime. Making quicklime is pretty straightforward from there, if incredibly dangerous until you figure out to seal it right away.
We've also that old warning about how the census would have aggravated the negative effects of Ancestral Deeds to consider. Just... something to keep in mind.
*grins*
Article: Korean Admiral Yi Sun-Shin is credited with designing the ship. His turtle ships were equipped with at least five different types of cannons. Their most distinguishable feature was a dragon-shaped head at the bow (front) that could launch cannon fire or flames from the mouth. Each was also equipped with a fully covered deck to deflect arrow fire, musket-shots, and incendiary weapons.[5]
Wait, I don't remember that...
Lord's Loyalty might be a good one to evolve next.
Most folks(me especially) tend not to notice them or realize the implications. Also gunpowder is shiny boom booms sooooo... SV + Shiny = Obvious Goal. Distraction is killer.
