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Paths of Civilization

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Killer_Whale said:


Stop grilling the sheep, you're making me hungry.
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Killer whales eat cooked food? How?

Sivantic said:
I really don't see geometry coming from anywhere else but the stars. What else would provoke that sort of thinking.

And before anyone tries to nitpick, I am not saying that it has zero use elsewhere, I am saying that astronomy is the field that would provide incentive into theorizing about angles.
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Carpenters make use of trignometry all the time as rule of thumbs.
 
pbluekan said:
Why do you say that? I'm genuinely curious why astronomy is he only reason you can think of for angles to become important enough to stick in someone's mind.
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Because it is the only way to understand the movement of the stars.

With almost no static point to use as reference, we have to use other stars as such and thus begin to see that there is in fact a pattern to the stars. They each move in a certain way over and over again. With nothing solid to work with, our priests have to theorycraft with numbers and imaginary lines.

In other fields, you can get away with "close enough" regarding angles. With our level of advancement, there is little consequence from being 3 degrees off. However with Astronomy, unless you you want to be way off in predicting a star's location, you need exact angles.
 
DocMatoi said:
Yes the rule of thumbs, or "What angle do i have to work at so as not to hit my thumb"
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Sure is curios when we will develop the concept of life after death and where dead goes.

Edit: and no, i do not accept dead people goes into Crow the devourer's belly as acceptable belief.
 
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Raichu1972 said:
We have a God of Smiths and the Underworld, so we do have a concept of an Afterlife, it's just not all that fleshed out yet.
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VoidZero said:


Sure is curios when we will develop the concept of life after death and where dead goes.

Edit: and no, i do not accept dead people goes into Crow the devourer's belly as acceptable belief.
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Well if we reference the Local Religions threadmark in the Informational tab we can actually see that we have a "Court of the Dead" concept for our Afterlife. All of the Upper Souls go to some separate state of existence where they can interact with each other, all the non-human spirits, and the mortal realm but are invisible to mortals. I can only assume that by this point the thought has developed that the Gods watch over this Court of the Dead, especially since AN has stated here, that we have several different psychopomps which are usually about carting dead souls to their afterlife etc.

We also have a limited form of re-incarnation, I think, I'm not sure on this last bit.

I would also imagine that if we are developing a Hell mythos, the negative form of the Afterlife concept, then the belly of the Devourer would work well as a final eternal nothingness to be consigned to oblivion.
 
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Sivantic said:
Because it is the only way to understand the movement of the stars.

With almost no static point to use as reference, we have to use other stars as such and thus begin to see that there is in fact a pattern to the stars. They each move in a certain way over and over again. With nothing solid to work with, our priests have to theorycraft with numbers and imaginary lines.

In other fields, you can get away with "close enough" regarding angles. With our level of advancement, there is little consequence from being 3 degrees off. However with Astronomy, unless you you want to be way off in predicting a star's location, you need exact angles.
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I suppose I understand this, but based on the history of geometry this isn't entirely true.

History of geometry - Wikipedia

Geometry, next to arithmetic is a very practical area of mathematics. It is used or useful practically everywhere. While 3% off might be alright, it does indicate the principles are there and being used. They will improve with time. Some of the more crucial theories, such as Pythagorean Theorem were likely developed for the construction of large stone works.

I will remind you that getting them to develop pi would be a coup on par with our iron working. Exact just isn't possible without it anyway.

If our people can get by building a dam without some sort of understanding of geometry I would be massively surprised
 
drake_azathoth said:
Incorrect. The earliest lenses were not glass, actually, but crystal or quartz. The earliest known intact lens is dated to 3000 BC, blown glass is dated to first century AD.

The early history of optics is obviously patchy going back into the Chalcolithic but it predates glassblowing considerably- you can argue that clear glass is necessary for microscopes and so forth, but the early history of glassblowing suggests it's rather all the same once glassblowing is invented- both clear glass and curved glass lenses were popularized in the first century AD shortly after Phoenician glassblowing and many thin translucent or 'aqua' lenses are fairly suitable for practical application anyway.
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Do those crystals include sapphires? Because i put forth the idea that Place to the Stars might be why the Khemetri wanted sapphires and other gems, but my googling skills only got me much more modern, artificial gems-as-lenses for results, not anyhting about if natural gems (sapphires in particular)were used historically that way.
 
pbluekan said:
The games? Put that shit on the northern coast. It's just as easy to get to as Redshore and will appeal to their martial sensibilities. It will also give them some sense of pride in ownership of something the southerners have to come to them for.
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So, just to add on here:

The bolded portion above is likely the most important thing here. Dominion is a powerful force in the human psyche, and is likely the major reason the northern territories were pissed off. At least the major emotion behind a lot of their complaints.

The south has all the luxuries, the major religious sites(less of a problem now), all of the governance, all of the libraries. The northern people, no matter how affluent, have to either go to the south or to southern traders to get these things. Certainly, the Dragon Temple and all our new roads have helped. Goods move more quickly with less hassle, and shamans are flocking to them to see the bones.

Giving them that one more thing in the Games, especially something that appeals so much to the more martial elements of the north would do more to tie our people together than anything else.
 
Abby Normal said:
Do those crystals include sapphires? Because i put forth the idea that Place to the Stars might be why the Khemetri wanted sapphires and other gems, but my googling skills only got me much more modern, artificial gems-as-lenses for results, not anyhting about if natural gems (sapphires in particular)were used historically that way.
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Quartz. Pure or colorless quartz. There's like literally no real reason not to use quartz, since it's basically naturally-occurring glass and is literally 12% of the continental crust.

I know we're all disappointed in the Not!Egyptians for using jewels to make jewelry rather than a Chalcolithic death ray, but not everyone can be peace-loving pragmatists like the Ymaryn.
 
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drake_azathoth said:
Quartz. Pure or colorless quartz. There's like literally no real reason not to use quartz, since it's basically naturally-occurring glass and is literally 12% of the continental crust.

I know we're all disappointed in the Not!Egyptians for using jewels to make jewelry rather than a Chalcolithic death ray, but not everyone can be peace-loving pragmatists like the Ymaryn.
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Chalcolithic Death Ray you say...

​

Guys, I know what we're going to do today!
 
drake_azathoth said:
Quartz. There's like literally no real reason not to use quartz, since it's basically naturally-occurring glass and is literally 12% of the continental crust.
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Hmmm...

Well we know from the Holy Site descriptions that Hatriver has a sparkling cave which may be quartz based. Means a survey down there is likely to find a cave system or mine we can use for it, though it may be turned into a holy site instead.

I find it more interesting that we have no mention of actually using clear anything for stuff. Makes me think we need to be building PttS to spark demand.

pbluekan said:
So, just to add on here:

The bolded portion above is likely the most important thing here. Dominion is a powerful force in the human psyche, and is likely the major reason the northern territories were pissed off. At least the major emotion behind a lot of their complaints.

The south has all the luxuries, the major religious sites(less of a problem now), all of the governance, all of the libraries. The northern people, no matter how affluent, have to either go to the south or to southern traders to get these things. Certainly, the Dragon Temple and all our new roads have helped. Goods move more quickly with less hassle, and shamans are flocking to them to see the bones.

Giving them that one more thing in the Games, especially something that appeals so much to the more martial elements of the north would do more to tie our people together than anything else.
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Ensuring the proper flow of people is probably one of the best things we can do so that we avoid problems like we have seen for the past several turns.
 
pbluekan said:
I suppose I understand this, but based on the history of geometry this isn't entirely true.

History of geometry - Wikipedia

Geometry, next to arithmetic is a very practical area of mathematics. It is used or useful practically everywhere. While 3% off might be alright, it does indicate the principles are there and being used. They will improve with time. Some of the more crucial theories, such as Pythagorean Theorem were likely developed for the construction of large stone works.

I will remind you that getting them to develop pi would be a coup on par with our iron working. Exact just isn't possible without it anyway.

If our people can get by building a dam without some sort of understanding of geometry I would be massively surprised
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...

I

*sigh*

Sivantic said:
I really don't see geometry coming from anywhere else but the stars. What else would provoke that sort of thinking.

And before anyone tries to nitpick, I am not saying that it has zero use elsewhere, I am saying that astronomy is the field that would provide incentive into theorizing about angles.
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I specifically addressed this point at the very start to avoid this.

I did not say that it is not useful in other fields. I said that Astronomy would be the field that would push for Geometry.

Even later on I used the "good enough" example as a way to explain that other fields have been able to manage so far without the precision that geometry gives and as such, would have less of an incentive to think about trying to use numbers and lines to better their craft as opposed to Astronomy which flat out requires it.
 
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