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Paths of Civilization

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PrimalShadow said:
Though I suppose knowing that military conflict isn't an issue at all is somewhat reassuring. Definitely brings me closer to considering the North as an option.
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What part of "needs a mercenary company for defense" and "borders the steppe" means that military conflict isn't an issue at all?

I mean, these nomads HAVE been nice to us so far. But they're one khan away from a WAAAAGH.
 
gutza1 said:
Argh, if only some of the voters for the minor options for [Exp] could pool their votes into the Far North trade post so we could prevent the West trade post from being made!
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If only everyone voted the way I wanted, we could prevent the thing I don't want from being chosen! :V:V:V
 
gutza1 said:
Argh, if only some of the voters for the minor options for [Exp] could pool their votes into the Far North trade post so we could prevent the West trade post from being made!
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Lots of voters for e.g. the East trading post don't want to deal with the North, which is why they aren't voting for it.

Why don't you change your vote to support those minor options in addition to your own?
 
It's basically just a difference of: Guaranteed martial commitment for 3 turns, potential economic commitment afterward versus Guaranteed martial commitment for ~1+ turns, potential martial commitment afterward for 3+ turns, potential economic commitment. The expected values I guess can be considered arguably equivalent.

Both can be expected to offer ancillary benefits:
-tech (north guaranteed; west if a blockade/war occurs)
-trade (north = new goods, west = influence on existing nation)
-civs (north = introduces new ones and probably provides more info on nomads to our north; west = influences a current one and provides more info on the Tin Tribes)

Edit: Btw, the "risky" marker for the Trell Trade Post came before this news about their changed habits and thus may have been upgraded. @Academia Nut Is this an accurate assessment?
 
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gutza1 said:
You know, honestly, I think that @Academia Nut should implement instant run-off voting to prevent the spoiler effect from happening.
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What's happening isn't the spoiler effect. Many people voting for other options genuinely don't think that a northern trading post is a good option right now, so they won't vote for it. Honestly I'm only voting for the West trading post because the North is in second place!
 
PLP said:
And because the RB are up north and not able to supply defence against the Trelli
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Well, as has been pointed out, the RB aren't ideal for defending against pirates, *if* those pirates are more than rumor, and *if* the Trelli choose to use them to antagonise a partner with 5 trade dominances including exclusive supply of quicksilver.

Metal armor isn't great on ships, and we can't fit very many soldiers in one right now, so we can't use their full tactical capability. May as well just send some yeomen.

So if we don't build the east or especially west trading post, we shouldn't really need the Red Banner.

But I very much favor east. Then we can use its extra income to found a second company. The other trading posts theoretically give us that income too, but we won't have any spare actions for a while if we take them.
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 15, 2017 at 3:30 PM, finished with 76723 posts and 118 votes.
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Concho117 said:
It was silly to talk about getting Iron in the early Bronze Age yet here we are...

Also Vaccination.

Also Environmental Engineering.
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Okay. So, iron, as I recall, was a result of a crit during a golden age.

Our Vaccination was hero backed.

As for Environmental Engineering was something that we, the voters aimed for rather deliberately. And it took a lot of pain to get there. That was a long time ago, though, I might be misremembering.

My objection is the assumption that it won't be difficult, or that it's something we can use as something more than a novelty for literal mellinia. If the knowledge is retained for that long in the first place. We're playing a very long game of telephone. Language drift is a thing, who knows if what we have now can be translated in 2000 years.

I'll admit to being somewhat cynical, but it is, at the current time, a long shot.

That's it. You've got hope, and little else to back you.
 
You know, there's a certain bitterness in this vote for me. People are voting to get into a war that we can't afford to win or lose. The best possible thing that could happen is a long, drawn out and bloody inconclusive conflict. They're doing this by automatically increasing our Admin load in a crisis. And, just to add a nice, salty cherry to the top, they're ignoring integrating the Stallions because they're worried that they might start a war!

If this breaks us, I'm hoping for a civil war. At least then I might get the satisfaction of destroying all of you in game.
 
MrGazzer said:
Okay. So, iron, as I recall, was a result of a crit during a golden age.

Our Vaccination was hero backed.

As for Environmental Engineering was something that we, the voters aimed for rather deliberately. And it took a lot of pain to get there. That was a long time ago, though, I might be misremembering.

My objection is the assumption that it won't be difficult, or that it's something we can use as something more than a novelty for literal mellinia. If the knowledge is retained for that long in the first place. We're playing a very long game of telephone. Language drift is a thing, who knows if what we have now can be translated in 2000 years.

I'll admit to being somewhat cynical, but it is, at the current time, a long shot.

That's it. You've got hope, and little else to back you.
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And apparently so is this quest.
 
PLP said:
I tought the reason the NTP was disfavoured was because of actual !Winter with !Snow.

And because the RB are up north and not able to supply defence against the Trelli
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Snow would be a problem, but if we do not build the West Trading Post, then we do not need our Red Banner
veekie said:
Doesn't really change that it requires Support Subordinate commitments to survive the weather and ties up our response force away from the primary theaters though. Or rather, we have to pre-send support because they are too far to reaction-send support.
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Karugus said:
It's just incredibly unappealing to say 'this move against other humans is way to risky! Let's send our sole means of military projection into the wintry North where we can do absolutely nothing to meaningfully reduce the risk of them dieing a horrible and meaningless death'.
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Why do guys keep acting as if Red Banner is our only martial, or even the Majority???

We have a much greater army atop of that.
 
Karugus said:
It's just incredibly unappealing to say 'this move against other humans is way to risky! Let's send our sole means of military projection into the wintry North where we can do absolutely nothing to meaningfully reduce the risk of them dieing a horrible and meaningless death'.
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Then let's make another Mercenary company. Hell, we can make two! We have the martial for one right now, and will have enough for another when we integrate the tribes.

Your point revolves entirely on the red banner being a unique entity, which it isn't.
 
pbluekan said:
Then let's make another Mercenary company.
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I want to, but I can only see us having enough actions for it if we build the eastern post. West and North will tie us up for at least three turns, maybe more.

ETA A vote for East is a vote for double megaprojects during a Golden Age!
 
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Hangwind said:
You know, there's a certain bitterness in this vote for me. People are voting to get into a war that we can't afford to win or lose. The best possible thing that could happen is a long, drawn out and bloody inconclusive conflict. They're doing this by automatically increasing our Admin load in a crisis. And, just to add a nice, salty cherry to the top, they're ignoring integrating the Stallions because they're worried that they might start a war!

If this breaks us, I'm hoping for a civil war. At least then I might get the satisfaction of destroying all of you in game.
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a) Totally agree about the bitterness.
b) Don't really get why we can't afford to win the war...? Losing would suck and not getting involved in it is preferable, though.
c) "automatically increasing our admin load in a crisis" Does this = making the TP, which is a peripheral state and thus represents a negligible load increase? Is it because war has a higher admin burden, to your mind and admittedly to my logic?
d) Integrating the Stallions = far heavier admin load, feasible but difficult to carry whereas a TP is like 1/7th or less of the size and thus of the load. People don't want it because they're worried that a war may be started elsewhere, by other people (integrating them would remove the ability to do the action that would start a war) and having it would hamper our ability to react.
 
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Hangwind said:
certain bitterness in this vote
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Just in this vote, hangwind?
ThrawnCA said:
@Manget, @SyntheticTrevor, @ScreenWatcher, @thatguy, @Krozart, @Painfulldarksoul, @redzonejoe, @Chrestomanci, @Noxious, @Random Shinobi, @NewAgeOfPower, @Golden Eyed King We have Word of AN that integrating the Stallion Tribes right now would push us way over the Martial cap and thus almost certainly cause big problems. Can you switch to a different vote?
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Thrawn, by that same logic you should switch to NTP as that's the one most likely to win over trade post west.
 
gutza1 said:
You know, honestly, I think that @Academia Nut should implement instant run-off voting to prevent the spoiler effect from happening.
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1. Imperfect voting is an intentional aspect of the quest, see ANs posts on voting moratorium and the like.
2 approval voting is pretty good at preventing the spoiler effect, is easy to use and understand, and is being used by a decent chunk of the voters, myself included; some people don't know we can do it, and others don't care, but that's not exactly the voting systems fault
 
ThrawnCA said:
I want to, but I can only see us having enough actions for it if we build the eastern post. West and North will tie us up for at least three turns, maybe more.
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How will the North tie us up? At worst we will need to send a Support Subordinate, and that's if they totally fail at farming the first 20 years they're there.

The West will only tie us up if the Trell react negatively.
 
pbluekan said:
Thrawn, by that same logic you should switch to NTP as that's the one most likely to win over trade post west.
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I'm tempted to add it. It's just that I foresee big problems with it. Maybe less than the Western problems, but... big. I'm only half convinced that it's less bad than West. If it goes wrong, we lose 2 Stability and the Red Banner.

It's not like the total suicide of integrating the Stallions right now, though.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
@Manget, @SyntheticTrevor, @ScreenWatcher, @thatguy, @Krozart, @Painfulldarksoul, @redzonejoe, @Chrestomanci, @Noxious, @Random Shinobi, @NewAgeOfPower, @Golden Eyed King We have Word of AN that integrating the Stallion Tribes right now would push us way over the Martial cap and thus almost certainly cause big problems. Can you switch to a different vote?
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They could easily be planning to choose to propogate the March when given the choice, which wouldn't have that issue...I still don't think it's a good option, but it's not an immediate failure of an option or anything
 
Umi-san said:
How will the North tie us up? At worst we will need to send a Support Subordinate, and that's if they totally fail at farming the first 20 years they're there.
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Haven't you read @veekie's analysis of it? I disagree with him on the West, but he does make lots of good points.

We would need to Support Subordinate without fail for the next three turns. Possibly double support. They will probably take 1-3 climate damage to Econ per turn, and they only start with 2.

The West will only tie us up if the Trell react negatively.
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Er... How would we react if someone tried to inject themselves between us and one of our iron supplies, intending to interfere with our control so they could collect tariffs on what was previously ours without challenge, and potentially threaten our supply for military leverage?
 
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