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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
Pastures has a real place in the war, as does the trails option. Both would give help with the infrastructure that is helping make the war easier.

Based on AN's explanation of Martial, though, it won't take econ to wage war, but rather martial points. (Though there is a slight chance of gaining martial if we do well enough.) In return we're likely to get martial tech and values.

I want to get the new trails either this following turn or next, because we'll need them to help hold onto land in the flood plains and will help us exert influence over WC and ST. I also think expanding pastures and fishing are very overdue.

All in all, next turn I'd like
[Main] Expand Warriors
[Secondary] New Trails
or
[Main] Expand Warriors
[Secondary] Expand Pasture

While the economic part of me wants to just wait until after the war to reimburse our warriors, there will likely be some synergy if we combine that with the war.
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Why warriors though? Our main trump cards are war wagons and bows, both of which our opponents lack due to both technology and wood - which we have, like, all of in the region.
Plus it will be 'a major raid' - so, mobility is king. And, well, on the plains their (most likely much better) warriors will have a very hard time catching carts.


Hangwind said:
And people wonder why I'm nervous about the whole thing.
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With war actually giving as a strong claim on fertile lowland plains, I am pretty much on board with it. But if we go for it, we do it properly, so that we are not weakened after it (STs are going to be pissed at us and nomads gonna nomad).
 
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I'd feel better taking an Econ action as the [Main] honestly. If we don't have to take a festival next turn, then i'd be torn between throwing the festival anyways to boost our stability and productivity. Depending on how the next turn plays out, i'd be willing to choose to expand warriors or build war carts if we're taking a significant hit to our martial from the war.

Edit: expand fishing is definitely something we should do in the turn after next, so we can meet the civ west of the nomads. I love gold...and the civ also has early metal working!
 
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hylas240 said:
I'd feel better taking an Econ action as the [Main] honestly. If we don't have to take a festival next turn, then i'd be torn between throwing the festival anyways to boost our stability and productivity. Depending on how the next turn plays out, i'd be willing to choose to expand warriors or build war carts if we're taking a significant hit to our martial from the war.
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We need carts regardless of how war goes because we are hella juicy target and at least STs will gladly attack us given opportunity.
So...maining either carts or war mission is called for.
And we should build walls in our unwalled settlements eventually, come to think of it.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Why warriors though? Our main trump cards are war wagons and bows, both of which our opponents lack due to both technology and wood - which we have, like, all of in the region.
Plus it will be 'a major raid' - so, mobility is king. And, well, on the plains their (most likely much better) warriors will have a very hard time catching carts.




With war actually giving as a strong claim on fertile lowland plains, I am pretty much on board with it. But if we go for it, we do it properly, so that we are not weakened after it (STs are going to be pissed at us and nomads gonna nomad).
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Well a couple of reasons. First,
Academia Nut said:
Build War Wagons - Increasing the number of war wagons would increase the general strategic and battlefield mobility of forces, although would be expensive to do so
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War wagons are noted to be expensive, I'd suspect a main action for them may very well cost 2 econ, and I'd like to do non econ focused actions next turn. They are also stated to not actually give us more troops, though I suppose you do have a point about making it stupidly hard to fight us being worth it.
I could be persuaded for warcarts, but it would have to be the following plan-
[Main] Expand Pastures
[Secondary] Build War Wagons (yes, it is still being called this for some reason)

I'm not against this plan, but it doesn't put our martial action in a main slot, and I get the feeling you want to do that. I'm also not too sure how much building war carts increases our martial score, though that may be me putting the numbers before what I know the increase in tech will do.
 
ctulhuslp said:
We need carts regardless of how war goes because we are hella juicy target and at least STs will gladly attack us given opportunity.
So...maining either carts or war mission is called for.
And we should build walls in our unwalled settlements eventually, come to think of it.
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I'm leaning towards expanding our warriors, simply because we have a limited amount of bodies to cover all our settlements (which are getting pretty high in number). I know our warriors grow proportionally with our population, but being proactive in boosting the numbers would definitely help in all forms of military action.

If we focus hard on the war carts, it'll compound our advantage on flat terrain even more, but the carts aren't that effective in our own terrain. If we get attacked by the sea, our carts are useless and no longer functions as a martial modifier. Extra muscle would definitely help in manning our navy when we expand fishing.

In the end, its a choice between specialized flat terrain war carts, or more bodies (which aren't specialized, but more flexible).
 
bluefur87 said:
War wagons are noted to be expensive, I'd suspect a main action for them may very well cost 2 econ, and I'd like to do non econ focused actions next turn. They are also stated to not actually give us more troops, though I suppose you do have a point about making it stupidly hard to fight us being worth it.
I could be persuaded for warcarts, but it would have to be the following plan-
[Main] Expand Pastures
[Secondary] Build War Wagons (yes, it is still being called this for some reason)

I'm not against this plan, but it doesn't put our martial action in a main slot, and I get the feeling you want to do that. I'm also not too sure how much building war carts increases our martial score, though that may be me putting the numbers before what I know the increase in tech will do.
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They may be expensive, but we have a lot of wood and experience in the area. Plus, they will make us way harder target and..and we will need to invest in them at some point anyway, because lol everyone around is aggressive.

hylas240 said:
I'm leaning towards expanding our warriors, simply because we have a limited amount of bodies to cover all our settlements (which are getting pretty high in number). I know our warriors grow proportionally with our population, but being proactive in boosting the numbers would definitely help in all forms of military action.

If we focus hard on the war carts, it'll compound our advantage on flat terrain even more, but the carts aren't that effective in our own terrain. If we get attacked by the sea, our carts are useless and no longer functions as a martial modifier. Extra muscle would definitely help in manning our navy when we expand fishing.

In the end, its a choice between specialized flat terrain war carts, or more bodies (which aren't specialized, but more flexible).
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Well, I guess, but we are specifically talking about war in the plains, where the carts will shine like nothing else.
And they cut down travel time, according to the update about merchant's travel to Spirit Talkers. So they are less effective in the hills, true, but as long as there are roads, they are still useful.
I mean, you probably do have some point about warriors in general, but carts increase mobility, thus allowing to cover more ground, so...I guess we need to do both some time. Right now, with war in plains incoming, carts seem more reasonable.
 
ctulhuslp said:
They may be expensive, but we have a lot of wood and experience in the area. Plus, they will make us way harder target and..and we will need to invest in them at some point anyway, because lol everyone around is aggressive.




Well, I guess, but we are specifically talking about war in the plains, where the carts will shine like nothing else.
And they cut down travel time, according to the update about merchant's travel to Spirit Talkers. So they are less effective in the hills, true, but as long as there are roads, they are still useful.
I mean, you probably do have some point about warriors in general, but carts increase mobility, thus allowing to cover more ground, so...I guess we need to do both some time. Right now, with war in plains incoming, carts seem more reasonable.
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Yeah I agree there. I'd be happy with either decision really.

Though i'm definitely advocating an econ action as [Main] instead of a military action. We'll be fighting with the WC against the DP, and the ST are going in too, so I doubt we'll be taking any sort of significant losses from the war. Maining a military action seems like over kill when we're only at 3 econ.
 
Personally I would rather that we stay out of the wars and just keep on spamming food production and forestry actions. Right now we are the most likely to become a very powerful neutral party. If we focus on making food and cultural actions we could make attacking us unfeasible. As any attempt would get them drowned in bodies. Plus as long as we continue as we are we can be secure in our border as any attempt to attack up would call the other tribes down on their head.
 
ctulhuslp said:
They may be expensive, but we have a lot of wood and experience in the area. Plus, they will make us way harder target and..and we will need to invest in them at some point anyway, because lol everyone around is aggressive.
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Yeah, but the thing is, I want to do things like expand place to spirits, study forests, new trails, in the next 2-3 turns. These things will, if not take econ, then certainly not net us any, with a very iffy possible exception in study forests. I don't want to spend another turn recovering from dropping all of our econ into war, again.
 
Entropy Engineer said:
Personally I would rather that we stay out of the wars and just keep on spamming food production and forestry actions. Right now we are the most likely to become a very powerful neutral party. If we focus on making food and cultural actions we could make attacking us unfeasible. As any attempt would get them drowned in bodies. Plus as long as we continue as we are we can be secure in our border as any attempt to attack up would call the other tribes down on their head.
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Except if we stay out of all wars on the basis of developing our economy, our military will be inexperienced and our military tech will stagnate. The war nets us prime flood plain territory and provides a low risk opportunity to develop our military tech, as well as learn how the DP fight.

bluefur87 said:
Yeah, but the thing is, I want to do things like expand place to spirits, study forests, new trails, in the next 2-3 turns. These things will, if not take econ, then certainly not net us any, with a very iffy possible exception in study forests. I don't want to spend another turn recovering from dropping all of our econ into war, again.
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We didn't drop all our economy in war though? IIRC we spent only 1 econ on fortifying our northern clients, that's it. All our Econ went down the drain of the mega project.
 
bluefur87 said:
Yeah, but the thing is, I want to do things like expand place to spirits, study forests, new trails, in the next 2-3 turns. These things will, if not take econ, then certainly not net us any, with a very iffy possible exception in study forests. I don't want to spend another turn recovering from dropping all of our econ into war, again.
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I want to do them all too, but if we are going to war, we are going to do it properly, so that nobody can consider us 'weak'.
Plus, again, if we get land from the war, it pays for itself, because if we can get so much food from the hills, imagine what can we do with the fertile plains. And to get more of it, we need to invest in war itself.

And New Trails will probably give a bit of econ boost, actually, so there is that too.

I...hm. Let's try it this way:
[T+0][Main] War Mission
[T+0][2nd] War Wagons
[T+0][2nd] Expand Pastures

[T+1][Main] Expand Fishery
[T+1] [2nd] Trade Mission - probably WC because damn I want source of textiles so that we can grow it ourselves!
[T+1][2nd] New settlement in lowlands/Walls in one of the settlements/Study Forests/New Trails - depending on economy and politics

[T+2][Main] Expand places to spirits
[T+2][2nd] Expand Warriors
[T+2][2nd] Expand Forests - either in plains or in steppes

[T+3][Main] Walls somewhere - in the valley because STs will probably get pissy at us either earlier or at this point?
[T+3][2nd] Expand Fishery/Maritime Trade Mission if we can sail?
[T+3][2nd] Expand Snails

Something roughly along those lines, depending on circumstances? Maybe we should move snails up the queue, but where?

@Academia Nut , could you please give some sort of an estimate on update time?
 
ctulhuslp said:
I want to do them all too, but if we are going to war, we are going to do it properly, so that nobody can consider us 'weak'.
Plus, again, if we get land from the war, it pays for itself, because if we can get so much food from the hills, imagine what can we do with the fertile plains. And to get more of it, we need to invest in war itself.

And New Trails will probably give a bit of econ boost, actually, so there is that too.

I...hm. Let's try it this way:
[T+0][Main] War Mission
[T+0][2nd] War Wagons
[T+0][2nd] Expand Pastures

[T+1][Main] Expand Fishery
[T+1] [2nd] Trade Mission - probably WC because damn I want source of textiles so that we can grow it ourselves!
[T+1][2nd] New settlement in lowlands/Walls in one of the settlements/Study Forests/New Trails - depending on economy and politics

[T+2][Main] Expand places to spirits
[T+2][2nd] Expand Warriors
[T+2][2nd] Expand Forests - either in plains or in steppes

[T+3][Main] Walls somewhere - in the valley because STs will probably get pissy at us either earlier or at this point?
[T+3][2nd] Expand Fishery/Maritime Trade Mission if we can sail?
[T+3][2nd] Expand Snails

Something roughly along those lines, depending on circumstances? Maybe we should move snails up the queue, but where?

@Academia Nut , could you please give some sort of an estimate on update time?
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The war mission that we're taking is locked as a secondary action, not a main action.

I'd probably prefer to study forests after the war mission, since it would almost certainly unlock some interesting options (herb/spices/honey cultivation perhaps?).
 
[Main] Expand Fishing
[Secondary] War Mission
[Secondary] New Trails

New Trails increase the efficiency of our logistics and communication capability, and strengthen our connection to both ST and the WC. Remember, professionals talk logistics, amateurs talk tactics.

Expand Fishing expands our economy to support the war effort, and may net us new technology.
 
Kiba said:
[Main] Expand Fishing
[Secondary] War Mission
[Secondary] New Trails

New Trails increase the efficiency of our logistics and communication capability, and strengthen our connection to both ST and the WC. Remember, professionals talk logistics, amateurs talk tactics.

Expand Fishing expands our economy to support the war effort, and may net us new technology.
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Do you intend to throw fish at the enemies?
Seriously, we are going to war with the most military powerful faction in the region on their home turf. Don't you understand that we can, in fact, lose if we don't make an effort?
 
[Secondary] War Mission
[Secondary] New Trails
[Secondary] Build War Carts
[Secondary] Expand Pastures

We can split the main action, and this has some nice synergies.
 
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I wouldnt be surprised if The People ended up with a sort of manifest destiny but with cultures and peoples instead of land.
 
Eh. I can agree with pastures, if we build more carts. I still think it is a bit too dismissive of how costly war (especially losing it) may be, but more animals will make carts more sensible.
 
[Main] War Mission
[Secondary] Expand Fishing
[Secondary] Expand Pastures

Deal with the food issues (not enough protein and econ needing a a boost) in one go and main attention is on the war mission?
 
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