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Paths of Civilization

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DragonParadox said:
They are professional soldiers, not hereditary warriors, but people whose trade is war and fighting effectively because their livelihood depends upon it.
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The two aren't mutually exclusive, not quite. Tis a difference in organisation rather than combat ability. Soldiers are trained as part of a greater whole, the unit, the company, the regiment.... Etc. And expect to fight as such.

Warriors are trained as individuals first and foremost. And expect to fight as such.


Naturally the two could be cross trained, albeit at a loss of effeciancy. Duo note that most advanced warrior societies did have hereditary warriors who were trained to fight as units. Notably as cavalry.
 
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Glassware said:
We kind of can, actually. Red Banner can hold the lowlands pretty well with, like, a secondary war action from us while the provinces go full megaproject, if need be.
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I'm remind you that even with 2 main province war missions and one main war mission from hatvalley, the Highlanders were pushing Hatvalley back through their defensive lines a couple turns ago, and then when we sent the red banner to teh west they even started to break through in the east; we were applying enough pressure to push for concessions, but we certainly weren't doing well enough to justify "oh a secondary war mission is enough to stop everything", in my opinion. Especially since against the TH and Swamp folk, our marches can't help, so its just our missions, the red banner, and our iron-less, likely chariot archer-less, much less organized, lowlander vassal fighting. Especially given what AN has said about widespread iron usage completely changing warfare, i have to assume that everyone else's armies arejust way bigger, or have more effort invested in them, or they go all in on war missions, but whatever it is, we're not dominating as much as you and others (and myself sometimes) like to claim
 
Abby Normal said:
I'm remind you that even with 2 main province war missions and one main war mission from hatvalley, the Highlanders were pushing Hatvalley back through their defensive lines a couple turns ago, and then when we sent the red banner to teh west they even started to break through in the east; we were applying enough pressure to push for concessions, but we certainly weren't doing well enough to justify "oh a secondary war mission is enough to stop everything", in my opinion. Especially since against the TH and Swamp folk, our marches can't help, so its just our missions, the red banner, and our iron-less, likely chariot archer-less, much less organized, lowlander vassal fighting. Especially given what AN has said about widespread iron usage completely changing warfare, i have to assume that everyone else's armies arejust way bigger, or have more effort invested in them, or they go all in on war missions, but whatever it is, we're not dominating as much as you and others (and myself sometimes) like to claim
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Best of the Best and the fact that we rarely take Expand Warriors likely means that our armies are very well armed and armored, but are comparatively much smaller then our neighbors.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Best of the Best and the fact that we rarely take Expand Warriors likely means that our armies are very well armed and armored, but are comparatively much smaller then our neighbors.
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Like the scorpions that our Red Banner were described as but extended to our entire army strategy.

E: Well in particular our entire army spec is around extremely mobile elites supported by yeoman masses. This is because we have been fighting equally mobile nomads for a small eon.

I think though that we are starting to see a shift though in how we fight. Into what I am not sure but whatever it is hurts like the dickens.
 
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Raichu1972 said:
Best of the Best and the fact that we rarely take Expand Warriors likely means that our armies are very well armed and armored, but are comparatively much smaller then our neighbors.
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For the highlanders in particular, they also likely have way more province actions to throw at us, in exchange for being less centralized.

But yeah, one of these days someone else is going to figure out iron, or get a large enough supply of bronze to equip entire armies with it, and we're going to be in a rude awakening...
 
Abby Normal said:
For the highlanders in particular, they also likely have way more province actions to throw at us, in exchange for being less centralized.

But yeah, one of these days someone else is going to figure out iron, or get a large enough supply of bronze to equip entire armies with it, and we're going to be in a rude awakening...
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Yeah, I'm thinking that our biggest weak point is that we don't do good during multi-front wars.

Wherever our people go we will likely crush our opponents in engagements, but everyone else likely has much larger armies that can be in more places at once, and would be able to overwhelm our lines and raid us.
 
Abby Normal said:
For the highlanders in particular, they also likely have way more province actions to throw at us, in exchange for being less centralized.

But yeah, one of these days someone else is going to figure out iron, or get a large enough supply of bronze to equip entire armies with it, and we're going to be in a rude awakening...
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Hmm... I partially agree.

If we can secure rich lands, for instance Greenshore or more of the Lowlands, then with our skills in farming I would argue that we can rapidly balloon in population. Another iron using civ attacking us after this ballooning I imagine we could stalemate, before would be a bit trickier.


Umi-san said:
Would you please find the quote for that description? <3
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Sure-lio!

*boop*

Academia Nut said:
All across the length of the wall a great cry went up as the defenders realized that their walls had been breached. Perhaps if they had fought at the breach they might have saved themselves, but they knew how well the iron scaled scorpions of the Red Banner fought in close quarters and their morale failed them. Never before had an enemy so much as scratched their walls, and now they had been shattered.
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BungieONI said:
I'm still kinda impressed by the sheer amount of ass whooping the RB seem to be able to unload. They've been instrumental in three massive turn arounds/victories.
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Red Banners basic infantry have small wooden shields covered in iron nails and white leather, iron spears and long knives as well as iron scale armour for all their infantry. This doesn't include the fact their archers are amongst the first skilled and disciplined enough to use their superior compound bows with iron arrow heads to fire over the melee, where the Red Banner like to use proto shield walls, into the enemy, allowing them to shoot longer, further and harder. This brings us to the third and second to last reason for their awesome, their Chariots are better too, better made, sturdier, faster, easier to repair due to iron, not to mention the fact that they are pulled by stronger, better horses alongside the superior bows, arrows and armour of their occupants. Finally comes discipline, the Red Banner are the first fully professional army in the known world, their men drill and train together in an organised fashion every day, they are paid well and led by good officers with the most disciplined nature of any force in the world. Oh, and they have the most combat experience of all our armed forces, they're basically full of veteran warriors compared to our Yeoman Royal armies which are built around a core of disciplined warriors and charioteers instead of being solely professional, only adding to their discipline and skill in comparison to everyone else.

Basically they are the Roman legion predecessors we all want and need, except that, as mercenaries, they pay for themselves when not fighting for us.
 
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Raichu1972 said:
Yeah, I'm thinking that our biggest weak point is that we don't do good during multi-front wars.

Wherever our people go we will likely crush our opponents in engagements, but everyone else likely has much larger armies that can be in more places at once, and would be able to overwhelm our lines and raid us.
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Academia Nut said:
A significant number of the troops they had brought with them were trained for a different kind of warfare. Phygrif had seen it immediately, that they were meant for a strategically slower but tactically more intense kind of fight than the fluid back and forth of raid and counter raid on the steppes. Whenever the Red Banner came into actual contact with the enemy they crushed them utterly, but they had great difficulty actually catching the enemy.
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Not necessarily the most relevant (it was in comparison to nomads) but this would seem to confirm your statement.

We crush when we meet them, if we can meet them.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Wherever our people go we will likely crush our opponents in engagements, but everyone else likely has much larger armies that can be in more places at once, and would be able to overwhelm our lines and raid us.
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Yeah, but that can be effective too. Because although an alliance *might* perhaps take us out, we could kill multiple attacking nations in the process, and no one wants that to be them.
 
ThrawnCA said:
But the HK is subdued for now, and they can be sure we would be less lenient next time.
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I was just using that as an example; the general principle (that we're not invulnerable, that our army isn't the "i win" button we often think of it as, and that a secondary war mission and the red banner company is not likely to be sufficient for defending the lowlands) stands in other wars...honestly, considering the Highland Kingdom is probably the surviving polity that took the most damage from the climate changes, it probably stands better in other wars
 
Abby Normal said:
I was just using that as an example; the general principle (that we're not invulnerable, that our army isn't the "i win" button we often think of it as, and that a secondary war mission and the red banner company is not likely to be sufficient for defending the lowlands) stands in other wars...honestly, considering the Highland Kingdom is probably the surviving polity that took the most damage from the climate changes, it probably stands better in other wars
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It isn't an "I win" button by any stretch but the fact that we have iron while they struggle to outfit their troops with bronze goes a looooooong way.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Yeah, I'm thinking that our biggest weak point is that we don't do good during multi-front wars.

Wherever our people go we will likely crush our opponents in engagements, but everyone else likely has much larger armies that can be in more places at once, and would be able to overwhelm our lines and raid us.
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If I had to equate us to a martial artist I would say that down in the Lowlands we are like a street fighter or flighty kick boxer with a shank. We ain't that sturdy or experienced but we hurt.

What we need to be is a monster that has fused the principles of Aikido and Krav Maga. Mostly Krav Maga.

Umi-san said:
Not necessarily the most relevant (it was in comparison to nomads) but this would seem to confirm your statement.

We crush when we meet them, if we can meet them.
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And yeah this is what was at the tip of my brain.

We seem to be diverging into two pieces for our war doctrine.

On the one side you have the traditional high speed high maneuvering drive by's of the Nomadic Steppe, which we are holy shit good at with our chariot and primitive horse tech and nigh on 1000 years of history with this kind of fight.

Then you have this new Lowlands tradition which began to form when we fought the Hats. Which is more like a juggernaut or a fuck big hammer. Not very maneuverable but squishes enemies it can catch like a tank.

We should fuse these two disciplines, because that will create a well supported and quite powerful force.
 
Abby Normal said:
I was just using that as an example; the general principle (that we're not invulnerable,
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Yeah, the war may be a hard slog.

I'd still rather fight it ourselves than leave it to the provinces, because we can be more strategic. Like letting Martial drop, then integrating the Stallions. Or holding back and sending gifts. Or Support Subordinate instead of simple war missions. The provinces just don't fight *smart*. So let's give them the megaproject job that doesn't require strategy, and we'll do the fighting.
 
Da Boyz said:
It isn't an "I win" button by any stretch but the fact that we have iron while they struggle to outfit their troops with bronze goes a looooooong way.
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We have a Neo-Assyrian style full Iron army in the form of the Red Banner, to say nothing of our Yeoman supplemented hereditary elite core Royal Armies. Also our Lowland Vassals are grinding their teeth and finally gaining a sense of a true military via their involvement in wars where they aren't just victims or meat shields.

We are the King of The Hill for a reason, winning a three front war against two polities and breaking the Xoh in two turns just shows how we are basically WW1 Imperial Germany compared to our neighbors
 
Da Boyz said:
It isn't an "I win" button by any stretch but the fact that we have iron while they struggle to outfit their troops with bronze goes a looooooong way.
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Yes, but that "loooooong" way is "enough that we're holding up, despite our lack of focus on the military, and using fewer war missions, and fighting on multiple fronts in multiple wars a lot of the time". I'll be honest, from @Academia Nut 's comments on the sheer difference widespread iron makes, and the fact that i didn't think we had been neglecting the military that much as of late, and the fact that the Red Banner has been so championed in skill as well as equipment, and with us i think never going to war without a periphery state helping, it feels like we should have an "i win" button... But we don't, by all accounts and experience in the last few wars, so we just have to live with "only" having a major advantage making up for our weaknesses...and fear (and hopefully prepare for) the day that advantage lessens in comparative strength D=

@ThrawnCA ah, yeah, i agree on switching to megaproject policy if we can afford to; if we're really lucky, maybe we can peace out one of the wars this turn, and then do double war + secondary policy switch next turn?
 
McLuvin said:
We have a Neo-Assyrian style full Iron army in the form of the Red Banner, to say nothing of our Yeoman supplemented hereditary elite core Royal Armies. Also our Lowland Vassals are grinding their teeth and finally gaining a sense of a true military via their involvement in wars where they aren't just victims or meat shields.

We are the King of The Hill for a reason, winning a three front war against two polities and breaking the Xoh in two turns just shows how we are basically WW1 Imperial Germany compared to our neighbors
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We need an engineering corp. The kind that build fortifications in fields and do siege warfare.
 
Abby Normal said:
@ThrawnCA ah, yeah, i agree on switching to megaproject policy if we can afford to; if we're really lucky, maybe we can peace out one of the wars this turn, and then do double war + secondary policy switch next turn?
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With the HK subdued, we sent only one main war last time. I think it's quite likely we can switch. Biggest question mark is the nomads.
 
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