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Paths of Civilization

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Andres110 said:
Can I convince you to do Expand Shrine instead? It gets us written/illustrated epics instead of spoken/sung epics.
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*raises eyebrow*
How about I convince you instead?

It's a celebration for completing a mega project so it would provide epics and advancements in culture as the people look for ways to better their enjoyment. That means better artisans and entertainers. More art, more culture, and better trading goods.

Expand Shrine isn't a celebration. There is no guarantee we would recieve writing this turn.
 
Nomads tend to be crap at siege warfare, and this one in particular is described as basically harassment to exhaustion raids. Fighting nomads on their terms with their tactics is also a historically losing proposition. Deny him soft, profitable targets by forting up and he'll have to take his armies off to raid someplace with the easy spoils he needs to fund his war machine.

What does everybody seem to have against the Spirit Talkers? They seem a perfect match here. They already hate one of our enemies, and they desperately need what we are best at.
 
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How would the people celebrate an achievement like completing the Sacred Forest? I would think they would like to party, hence the Festival.
 
Lailoken said:
Nomads tend to be crap at siege warfare, and this one in particular is described as basically harassment to exhaustion raids. Deny him soft, profitable targets by forting up and he'll have to take his armies off to raid someplace with the easy spoils he needs to fund his war machine.

What does everybody seem to have against the Spirit Talkers? They seem a perfect match here. They already hate one of our enemies, and they desperately need what we are best at.
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True, we could likely make an arrangement with the Spirit Talkers. Give us a hand with these guys and we'll give them a hand with the DPs.
 
[X] Spiritual
[X] New Holy Site
[X] Increase fortification around endangered settlements (Warning: Costs Econ at Econ 0)
[X] Send a diplomatic expedition Into the Wild in the hopes of finding someone who can help

The way I see it is this:

What social values do we really need to change? Eye for an Eye has its issues, yes, but it is easily manageable and otherwise beneficial.

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Academia Nut said:
Both are useful. A proper harvest festival where the fruits of yearly labour from all across the People would undoubtedly help tie the People further together and ensure important stories are better told for all rather than at more ad hoc times, while a new holy site would better commemorate the struggle against the blight and preserve the importance of the forest.
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This basically tells me to vote for holy site to cement sacred forest in our society permanently and get the maximum bonus from it.


The lure idea is practically obvious. Edit: And so I've been convinced that we should probably not do the obvious idea. Fortification is pretty much impenetrable in this day and age, and the stability malus should be countered by the festival.

I'm not really sure what to do about this option. I don't like just rolling the dice on an encounter. However, I feel we need to root out the Storm Clans, and I'm not willing to approach the Spirit Talkers to do it. We already know they would take serious issue with us. If we have no other choice, let's just roll the dice.
 
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I think people are taking a Huge risk sending diplomats out in the wild, when we can contact the ST who are renownd warriors and at the same time help them stabilise vs the DP.

I feel that we are culturally strong enough to trade with ST.



And I noticed that we have shamans now as priests!
 
Andres110 said:
The sheer amount of things people did is enough to expand writing, and that's before someone gets the idea to record the other grand tales of the People in the largest centre of wisdom and knowledge available to them. They'll also go to a lot of effort in their pictures, more than they would for anything else, advancing us a great deal that way too. Expand Shrine will increase our art and culture, in a different but NOT lesser way to Annual Festival.
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What will we say they did again? "Today, abu cut tree. Dynar plant tree. Day was good."

That will not expand writing much if at all. It will expand pictures, yes, but that will just contextualize high art in the realm of intellect and religion, decreasing its development and expansion across our whole population, albeit possibly to higher levels due to a lack of a commercial aspect. So it achieves the opposite effect of an annual festival, which emphasizes a widespread but less steady and predictable effect through folk crafts and storytelling.

What I think is the real issue is: how do these choices tie into what they are celebrating: the end of the mega project and beginning of the Holy Forest. Honestly, neither of them truly celebrate this better than the other, imo. But I feel that the expanded holy shrine will not help us incorporate others into our culture, and can help establish writing later.

However, if you choose to establish a new holy place...
 
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If we evacuate the nearby settlements, the festival would probably cancel our any strife we get(assuming it does trigger the Shaper malus).
 
pbluekan said:
[X] Spiritual
[X] Establish Annual Festival
[X] Lure the nomads deeper into People controlled territory and launch a massive ambush
[X] Send a diplomatic expedition Into the Wild in the hopes of finding someone who can help

The way I see it is this:

What social values do we really need to change? Eye for an Eye has its issues, yes, but it is easily manageable and otherwise beneficial.

Thus the question lies between military and spiritual matters. I've got no preference at all, really, so I'll edit my vote later as I think on it or new arguments pop up.

Everyone seems to be voting for the festival. This is good. This was our plan was to main action a festival. We essentially completed a generations long project. Let's celebrate it for the rest of time. This should cover multiple benefits, both spiritual and societal. Upgrading our spirit place also sounds useful, but to me, it seems a rather poor reward to our people who worked so hard.

The lure idea is practically obvious. We just got some serious business bonuses there. Let's use it.

I'm not really sure what to do about this option. I don't like just rolling the dice on an encounter. However, I feel we need to root out the Storm Clans, and I'm not willing to approach the Spirit Talkers to do it. We already know they would take serious issue with us. If we have no other choice, let's just roll the dice.
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We cannot, fucking, trick a military genius into fighting on ground he knows he's at a disadvantage on.

Full, Stop.
 
Lailoken said:
Nomads tend to be crap at siege warfare, and this one in particular is described as basically harassment to exhaustion raids. Deny him soft, profitable targets by forting up and he'll have to take his armies off to raid someplace with the easy spoils he needs to fund his war machine.
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Problem is that our economy is in the shit. We can't afford to fort up as much as I like.

Lailoken said:
What does everybody seem to have against the Spirit Talkers? They seem a perfect match here. They already hate one of our enemies, and they desperately need what we are best at.
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The Spirit Talkers are a bunch of fraud and conman who convinced everyone that they caused the weather calamity.

Even if their ability to invoke the weather is true, they caused massive collateral damage.
 
Kiba said:
Problem is that our economy is in the shit. We can't afford to fort up as much as I like.



The Spirit Talkers are a bunch of fraud and conman who convinced everyone that they caused the weather calamity.

Even if their ability to invoke the weather is true, they caused massive collateral damage.
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Sadly, our only options if we want to win are to fort up, or pull back. The least worst of the remaining options is staying the course until our econ is better and hope they start slipping up.

Because we're not going to trick a military genius with a mobile force into an ambush or a decisive battle.
 
Kiba said:
The Spirit Talkers are a bunch of fraud and conman who convinced everyone that they caused the weather calamity.

Even if their ability to invoke the weather is true, they caused massive collateral damage.
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So? We need their help and they need ours. That's what's important right now. Survival against the Storm Clan, not our pissing match with the ST or trying to contact a new group entirely and risk getting wiped out by another warlike culture.
 
We can fort up or build chariots. These are the only two other options.

Build chariots will develop our mastery of Calvary warfare, but forting up will develop our military engineering skills.
 
I'd rather fort up, though that depends on the Econ cost. We probably can't afford to both fort up and send an expedition out.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Exactly. It's an obvious move, which is why he won't fall for it, because it is so obvious than anyone can see it coming. If you know what the obvious move for your enemy is, you can just counter or avoid it.
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That's why we need this Fabian strategy - Wikipedia

The Fabian strategy is a military strategy where pitched battles and frontal assaults are avoided in favor of wearing down an opponent through a war of attrition and indirection. While avoiding decisive battles, the side employing this strategy harasses its enemy through skirmishes to cause attrition, disrupt supply and affect morale. Employment of this strategy implies that the side adopting this strategy believes time is on its side, but it may also be adopted when no feasible alternative strategy can be devised.
 
If we evacuate the outer villages they'll be brought into the People's territory, possibly increasing our centralization.
 
I want Annual Festival because we are a dour and workaholic people so having an actual holiday for us to celebrate civilization wide would hopefully dispel some of this. We need more things to celebrate rather than another place to worship.
 
Malevolo said:
That's why we need this Fabian strategy - Wikipedia

The Fabian strategy is a military strategy where pitched battles and frontal assaults are avoided in favor of wearing down an opponent through a war of attrition and indirection. While avoiding decisive battles, the side employing this strategy harasses its enemy through skirmishes to cause attrition, disrupt supply and affect morale. Employment of this strategy implies that the side adopting this strategy believes time is on its side, but it may also be adopted when no feasible alternative strategy can be devised.
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I agree it's the best strategy. It just goes against all our Social Values and will probably cause huge instability.
 
Alectai said:
Sadly, our only options if we want to win are to fort up, or pull back. The least worst of the remaining options is staying the course until our econ is better and hope they start slipping up.

Because we're not going to trick a military genius with a mobile force into an ambush or a decisive battle.
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Won't we be able to deal with the strife we get from bringing in the outer villages if we take the Annual Festival?
 
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