Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
I really don't care about vassalizing or otherwise subjugating the Trelli. However, I'm completely open to eventually using force to get trade concessions eventually if they're unreasonable.

Right now though I just want to plop a trading outpost next to them. They're a bigger opportunity than threat at the moment.
 
Trelli Tradepost is probably one of the best possible actions to take at present yeah.
If there's a slot we can use that they won't object to. Unlike the MWs they can put up much stronger objections
bluefur87 said:
Colonies were originally described as figuring out how to live in an area in addition to securing its land and resources, where as trade posts are more for trading with people. It could certainly be either, since trade posts are more comfortable to make at a great distance, but I'm leaning towards colony. We'll see next turn.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Either way I don't believe it's a good idea for at least another 2 Portable Boat improvements, because Lord's Honor compels us to come to their defense...and they're just too far away to send aid to.
 
McLuvin said:
Oh hey guys I stopped revising for today so I can come in and properly debate what's going on-
*sees Power of Mind trying to start a debate despite how bad it went the last three times he started this*
Read the posts you quoted mate, the earliest thing I did was say start preparing for an invasion next turn, that'll take a Megaproject and some build boats so it'd still be about a century even if we start preparing next turn.

Don't rage at me when you don't even bother to read your own quotes. Revisionist history has nothing on your deliberate misinterpretation

Also, we kind of have a history of blowing up at each other (referencing to the infractions) so I'm going to try and back away from this now you're involved, you're already getting mad somewhat

I'm going to leave this thread alone and not reply until the next update because I really don't trust you not to escalate things into a full blown infraction worthy argument like the last times.

McLuvin out
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not raging, though your clever attempt to make it sound like I am would probably convince me to get upset if I didn't already see you bait Hangwind into a frothing fury twenty pages ago by repeatedly dancing around his points and using sensational argument~

If you come back, I'd love to see how you break down the two massive counterpoints I've presented to ever making an attempt on these guys, or if you even can...
 
bluefur87 said:
Will this apply to aqueducts in general, or will it be gated behind what our current population is?

Colonies were originally described as figuring out how to live in an area in addition to securing its land and resources, where as trade posts are more for trading with people. It could certainly be either, since trade posts are more comfortable to make at a great distance, but I'm leaning towards colony. We'll see next turn.

Something that a lot of people should keep in mind is that this isn't a list of priorities, it's a list of how much various departments consider things they want to do important.

The Dam? It's one of those things that will do massive benefits for gardening. Probably the biggest thing that could be done, so the department of gardening really wants it.

The Palace? Well, considering it makes centralized government immensely easier, the department of administration is basically grabbing the king and shaking him saying, 'you don't understand. We need this.'

In general, it's meant to act as a thought experiment to get inside of the various needs the people have and allow the players to prioritize them based off of that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm! I like this thought experiment! Thanks again blue! It really helps.
 
pblur said:
I really don't care about vassalizing or otherwise subjugating the Trelli. However, I'm completely open to eventually using force to get trade concessions eventually if they're unreasonable.

Right now though I just want to plop a trading outpost next to them. They're a bigger opportunity than threat at the moment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

veekie said:
Trelli Tradepost is probably one of the best possible actions to take at present yeah.
If there's a slot we can use that they won't object to. Unlike the MWs they can put up much stronger objections
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, I won't object to another trade post if we get the opportunity to make one. It's effectively more actions in a category we want. I think the current one is close enough, though.
veekie said:
Either way I don't believe it's a good idea for at least another 2 Portable Boat improvements, because Lord's Honor compels us to come to their defense...and they're just too far away to send aid to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, I did ask how long it takes to travel there for this exact reason. I don't think AN replied to that, though.

Assumedly less than a year, since they turned back during the winter.
 
bluefur87 said:
Blue's Department of the Ymaryn: The Rebirth of Plans

So we have been in something of a constant state of chaos and flux since getting iron working as we continue down a road of escalation until we plateau to a level that our government can actually start handling more actions one way or another. In general, some cases seem to be creating more periphery states and maybe the Palace and/or Census. Still, we got a lot of things that need to be done, and we need to start organizing it somehow. There is something we're going to have to accept though. We have way too much stuff to prioritize as 'incredibly important now,' to honestly expect to us to be capable of achieving it soon.

This is going to be an interesting plan, but it will help give us some guideposts, as we've been starting to flounder around in the dark recently.

The Department of Gardening:
The concerns of the department of gardening are the development of food and fertile land. To that means they seek to take actions to increase Econ, Econ Slots, Econ Effectiveness, and Forests. The expected list of wants for such a department is as follows:
  • Expand Forest: A backbone to our civilization, forests are what allow us to be hyper defensive and to have charcoal for iron production. They will also be needed for the Grand Docks in the future. At the moment we need to start growing more forest into Redhills, and other areas around us. There is room to grow, but we don't know how much. Importance: High
  • Great Dam: The great dam is one of the most important things we can do for gaining more econ slots and providing bonuses to aqueducts. It will allow for an immense amount of econ slots to be created when combined with Chinampas, and insulate us against droughts better. Importance: Very High
  • Aqueducts: These apparently don't decrease the amount of econ slots for a true city to stay active like we thought? If that's true these are actually much more important that we thought, though it could very well be a special case for the Sacred Forest one. They also increase econ slots and health of the local area, however, so having them is definitely important to the department. Importance: Dependent on Information
The Department of Administration:
The concerns of the department of administration are to increase the capabilities for the central government and government in general to take actions. They wish to do things that would increase the number of actions available, effectiveness of said actions, and reach and management of the government. The expected list of wants for such a department is as follows:
  • Grand Palace: The ability to officially centrally manage a central government is imperative. Doing this will give the government more recognition and allow for greater and more reliable ease in which to organize the government from a central level. It is unknown what the exact payouts for such a building would be, but they are expected to be immense. Importance: Critical
  • The Census: Keeping track of who and where everyone is is likely to give a great deal more effectiveness when managing people and increasing the insulation against various crises. Like the Grand Palace, it is unknown what the exact payout would be, but they are expected to be very notable. Importance: Very High
  • Grand Palace Library: Something that is likely to increase the effectiveness of managing in the central government by a notable level, a library built as an addition to the Grand Palace would be an immense boon to helping manage the affairs of the government. Importance: High
  • New Trails: We have a major issue with logsitics, and New Trails is probably one of the few ways to improve it as we go inland. While the department acknowledges the centralization is not something they are able to handle easily, the increased effectiveness in which the Ymaryn work would be very large. Importance: Moderate
  • Establish Periphery States: Periphery states are the single most effective action economy increases we can gain at the moment. While the actions tend to be overly focused and things we often will not see benefit from for a long while, it is still 4 actions gained that are working towards the benefit of the Ymaryn. That increase is insane. Importance: High
  • Gain Prestige: While not quite government legitimacy, prestige is our bottleneck for periphery states, which as noted above, are our best action economy increases. Still, we need good actual targets for this to be effective, so it is not immensely critical. Importance: Low
The Department of Culture:
The goals of the department of culture are to ensure the Ymaryn way is explored, wide spread, and celebrated throughout as much of the land as possible. They seek to take on projects that not only increase art, but increase Ymaryn art, along with swaying others to our ideals. The expected list of wants for such a department is as follows:
  • Art Patronage: What should be the bread and butter for any culture, yet we have only ever taken it once as a secondary action. Doing this as a main will encourage Ymaryn artists to create art that is reflective of our culture, possibly relying on goods that are dominated by the Ymaryn such as fanciful woodworking. Importance: High
  • Temples: One of the Ymaryn's current strengths is that of pilgrimage migration. By bringing in more pilgrims we can expand the ideas of the Ymaryn to greatly influence our neighbors, slowly assimilating them into our core. Further more, this advances the beliefs and introspection of the Ymaryn, allowing for more locations for libraries to be built. Importance: Very High
  • The Games: The games offers a completely new venture into Ymaryn culture, one of which we will likely be the sole competitors for. Creating a festival around games should bring in people from far and wide to participate in them, increasing our fame and prestige to a great amount. Importance: High
The Department of Warriors:
The goals of the department of warriors are to protect the Ymaryn people from those who would threaten it. They desire more troops and better defenses. The expected list of wants for such a department is as follows:
  • Walls: Many settlements still do not have walls within the Ymaryn, and as we expand further east, this becomes more and more unacceptable. It would be of a great boon to spend some amount of time building walls where they are needed. Importance: High
  • Watchtowers: Watchtowers are one of the backbones of our defenses, to help keep a lookout for bandits and allow us to utilize mobility to a much greater effect while on the defense. The current coverage is mostly where they are most effective, but it will definitely not hurt to increase their range. Importance: Moderate
  • Infantry: While we currently don't have the space for it, gaining infantry tech is of rather large importance to fighting more effectively, and currently the weakest link in said military. It is not critical, but it does need to be done. Importance: Low
  • March: Marches are one of the best defenses we have for our people. Gaining more will allow us to better protect our core and deal with threats with significantly greater force. It will also free up room to do tech for more troops. Importance: Moderate
The Department of Trade:
The goals of the department of trade are to establish strong relations with foreign entities, create new goods, gain prominence in existing goods, and increase the transportation of goods. Much of this will be done through improved sailing and shipping, though notable gains can be made elsewhere. The expected list of wants for such a department is as follows:
  • Expand Snail Cultivation: Currently under threat to our dominance in the industry, gaining more snails for snail cultivation is of the up most importance to not only maintaining our dominance in the trade, but in making sure we do not take a stability hit for losing dominance in it, even if only for a short while. Importance: Critical
  • Build Docks: Docks are one of the most important things we can do to increase our ability to move trade goods around, in addition to giving us the best opportunities to advance ship building designs. Even general increases to docks stand to have immense gains. Importance: Very High
  • Grand Docks: The Grand Docks are likely to allow for shipping on a truly massive scale, in addition to the construction of truly grand ships. While the exact nature of it is unsure, like all megaprojects, it will more than likely change the face of shipping. Importance: Very High
  • More Boats: Increasing the number of boats is something that would give us greater control over the sea in general. While it wouldn't amount to the same level as docks, there are likely narrative benefits to having a large number of boats kicking around. Importance: Moderate
  • Build Glassworks: A new trade good that no one is dominating in. Considering the new trade hub we have met doesn't have glass under their stats, this could be incredibly powerful leverage towards them. Importance: High
  • Northern Colony: From the sounds of things we will have the option of establishing a northern colony starting next turn, though we won't be able to afford it. Getting this started will give us access to two trade goods that absolutely no one that we trade with even begins to have a hope in obtaining. This makes this an immense opportunity for trade, though more exploration may be in order. Importance: High
The Department of Mysticism:
The goals of the department of mysticism are to research and understand the unknown. By doing this they will generate new ideas and technology, exploring what is and is not possible. The expected list of wants for such a department are as follows:
  • Libraries: Libraries allow for the mysticism score to never drop once enough are achieved, and even constantly gain and always overflow into other studies after awhile. Gaining enough libraries will fuel the department to do many things of interest. Importance: High
  • Place to the Stars: A place where the department can spend great time and care studying the stars would be one of the single greatest boons it could ask for. In many ways it is the equivilant of a library for cosmic knowledge, and while the exact gains from creating such a place are brought to question, the methodology needed to do it is more than likely going to require very careful measurements and advanced math to make it accurate for the worker's high demands. The accuracy could be of such a great force as to even demand the project be built slowly. Importance: Very High
  • Progress Policy: There is much for the department to research, and as great as many things are likely to be, doing many studies at the same time is ultimately what should be aimed for. The progress policy is not only the best way to do this, it is the only way to do it. Importance: High
Aaaaaand done. Let's re-introduce the sort of careful and fun (hopefully) to read examination that makes planning a thing! Do note, we really can't realistically plan on turns to a safe degree. This is merely meant to take problems as they come and determine our goals more easily.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wonderful write up.

So I disagree with just one thing on this list and want to make light of one other thing.

The criticality of New Trails. We are a civ that requires high centralization for our government and society to function. Everyone has to agree with everyone. We've been told by AN that our food organization is dependent on centralization, and it governs other factors such as disaster resistance.

In that same vein, docks of almost any kind are crucial pieces of insfrastructure that tie our empire together. With them in place and with ships large enough to reliably sail away from shore, our north and south are not nearly so far away, logistically, and any further expansions are equally cared for.
 
Powerofmind said:
Not raging, though your clever attempt to make it sound like I am would probably convince me to get upset if I didn't already see you bait Hangwind into a frothing fury twenty pages ago by repeatedly dancing around his points and using sensational argument~

If you come back, I'd love to see how you break down the two massive counterpoints I've presented to ever making an attempt on these guys, or if you even can...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Don't take shots when you know that I'm trying not to get into this with you *points again at all the times we've tried to debate only to get told off, which is every time*
Don't start Colossal Fucking Fight that Gets us Both in Trouble 4: Return of the sith Power of Mind
For once try to be the bigger man
 
Looking at he last update and how our hero shaman is effectively helping the king manipulate the priests I wonder if we will one day see a serious conflict on the priest/shaman divide. Their duties are at least somewhat at odds.

The priesthood is the social institution that helps assure the populace that the gods have been appeased and order in the world is maintained. By contrast the shamans are wizards, wonder-workers, innovators, those most involved in challenging tradition and pushing the boundaries of understanding.
 
pbluekan said:
So I disagree with just one thing on this list and want to make light of one other thing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I had more than a few things that I waffled on for various reasons, and still am. Still, I consider it a resounding success if I only get a few minor beliefs in difference considering how large it was.


Also, speaking of waffling. One of the things I'm noticing in the update is that our Black Soil seems to have been of vital importance in having the change in weather not completely mess with us. This sort of implies that increasing black soil production gives us an increase in food security to some degree. It makes it a lot more important than I thought when making that list.
 
Abby Normal said:
Oh hey, AN updated the civ sheet after i went to bed last night, and our mystic hero's actions against the increased insect problem got us:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nifty. Helps keep diseases down in the cities mostly. Rural areas won't have enough human density to make insect to human transmission that powerful compared to a city.
bluefur87 said:
I mean, I won't object to another trade post if we get the opportunity to make one. It's effectively more actions in a category we want. I think the current one is close enough, though.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Current one is apparently a month's sail away. Pretty far I think. An onsite tradepost there would be enormously useful but probably not the most well liked by the Trelli.
bluefur87 said:
Well, I did ask how long it takes to travel there for this exact reason. I don't think AN replied to that, though.

Assumedly less than a year, since they turned back during the winter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
On the other hand, Valleyhome doesnt HAVE winter at all, so I surmised it was really far upriver to have a winter cold enough to kill...
 
DragonParadox said:
Looking at he last update and how our hero shaman is effectively helping the king manipulate the priests I wonder if we will one day see a serious conflict on the Priest/shaman divide. Their duties are at least somewhat at odds.

The priesthood is the social institution that helps assure the populace that the gods have been appeased and order in the world is maintained. By contrast the shamans are wizards, wonder-workers, innovators, those most involved in challenging tradition and pushing the boundaries of understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean...we are choosing both "If the King has a dream about why a spiritually impure thing is actually good, then he's right even if the priests don't agree" and "If the King so chooses, a younger and disliked shaman gets to lead a state spiritual study against the wishes and traditions of the priests", so... yeah, if we go down to 0 Religious Authority i expect it to be gold/yellow level and trigger midturn events
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
DragonParadox said:
Looking at he last update and how our hero shaman is effectively helping the king manipulate the priests I wonder if we will one day see a serious conflict on the priest/shaman divide. Their duties are at least somewhat at odds.

The priesthood is the social institution that helps assure the populace that the gods have been appeased and order in the world is maintained. By contrast the shamans are wizards, wonder-workers, innovators, those most involved in challenging tradition and pushing the boundaries of understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I dunno, you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. At least that's my reading on the situation. Personally I see no real separation between the two. *shrug*

Unless of course I am misunderstanding what you mean, which is always possible.
 
Last edited:
Abby Normal said:
I mean...we are choosing both "If the King has a dream about why a spiritually impure thing is actually good, then he's right even if the priests don't agree" and "If the King so chooses, a younger and disliked shaman gets to lead a state spiritual study against the wishes and traditions of the priests", so... yeah, if we go down to 0 Religious Authority i expect it to be gold/yellow level and trigger midturn events
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I meant more for the future as the roles of priests and shamans diverge further.
 
McLuvin said:
Don't take shots when you know that I'm trying not to get into this with you *points again at all the times we've tried to debate only to get told off, which is every time*
Don't start Colossal Fucking Fight that Gets us Both in Trouble 4: Return of the sith Power of Mind
For once try to be the bigger man
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I may have opened the dialogue, here. I may have done it by pointing out that one of your first statements was, indeed, "if we can vassalize them next turn, we should do it." I may not have been perfectly angelic.

That doesn't mean I was 'raging at you', nor does it mean I'm 'already mad'.

Literally your counterpoint to two massive reasons not to do as you say, was to take the weakest element of my argument to attack, successfully attack it, and then claim that you have a moral high ground by claiming I'm raging at you and using implied threat of action against that 'rage' to keep me from responding.

When I pointed that out, you bring up this beautiful quote above me, where you compare me immediately to any sith ever, and then belittle me. Literally your entire post is designed as a flame and bait to get me into that fight you claim not to want. If that's really your best attempt at disengaging, you really must get black eyes a lot.
 
Stop: Can you at least give me a place in the mythology man?
  • Staff Post
    • can you at least give me a place in the mythology man? @McLuvin you have been found guilty of multiple breaches of Rule 3; I am infracting you for 25 points and a 7-day threadban, I also implore you to remember not to use the moderation team as a threat in your arguments, we hit you all with newspapers equally.

    I am apologizing to @Academia Nut, because I will be adding a new thread policy; I have noticed a trend in using the moderation team as a scare argument. I am frankly tired of seeing this line of argument be used to quiet dissent, whether legitimate or not; if you have an issue with someone, report them. If you argue with someone, argue using your own points, sourced facts and debating in good faith.

    Any invocation of the moderation team applies to all sides of an argument, it cannot and will not be used to silence dissent, because any attempt to do so applies equally to both parts. I humbly request that you report such frivolous arguments, they will henceforth be considered disruptions to the thread and be responded to with threadbans, starting at one day and escalating from there at repeated behaviour. This may result in infractions.

    Have a good day.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Well.

    Um.

    I got nothing except to say I'll be spending some time in introspection.
     
    Academia Nut said:
    Priests said to do X, king said no, king won, why should we listen to the priests?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Given that, honestly it might not be a terrible idea to keep religious authority relatively low. Not at 0, but we don't always want the priests to be able to overrule the king, especially since this is a centralization-type stat where we don't seem to have a way of lowering it outside of events.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top