Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Who claimed that?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
You did. You claimed they never in two millennia of existence killed a civilian nor abused the defeated populace.... I mean, damn that's quite a record. No modern army can claim such a thing over a much shorter span of time.
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I figure the morality argument is inherently silly considering we're committing atrocities by Bronze Age standards by functionally performing Damnatio Memoriae systematically on everyone who came against us. We've turned war into labor, there will be no songs or epics immortalizing the battle, only tallies of men killed and lost like grain.
Though I think our Kings generally would grealy prefer if they'd just stop bloody suiciding into us and our allies, then forcing us to warp our social values when we take in their dependents.
Though I would note that there is no institutional(personal aside, because asking the warriors to keep it in their pants without any oversight just isn't going to work) coercion here, the Ymaryn would give them food and a place to live regardless of whether they married our warriors, so long as they are willing to work and are entirely willing to simply adopt them, but by their own culture that's incomprehensible, and so they offer themselves out of misguided desperation.
The Ymaryn may be a bronze age society, but in some way they are far more enlightened than even Western countries. They developed many things that is considered ahead of time in our RL history. So, the comparison is a bit silly.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Actually i asked for evidence that ymaryn killed civilians in response to someone claiming we are genocidal.
As for abuse of a defeated populace, could you quickly look up cosmopolitan acceptance and greater justice, and the trait that formed the core of greater justoce was formed by as i recall making a point of being lenient with the wife of a defeated chief for how she responded to a a ymaryn king abusing her.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Oh, come on. You seriously think that taking the widows of men who tried to kill us, and giving them the opportunity to marry the local chief, which by their own standards and values would be a huge social step up, never mind the economic and security benefits for them, is a black mark on our record?
That's optimistic... not wildly optimistic mind, but do you really think that if after a hard fought battle some nomad woman refuses the chief of the Ymaryn's expeditions' advances she will be taken in anyway? There is probably some institutional pressure although it is a form of corruption not the system working as intended.
No I'm claiming it is rape by modern standards. Our record if such exists should not be weighted against such.
And people never act against social values... like how all knights were chivalrous and kind because that was part of the values they were supposed to embody. Their values make the Ymaryn better than anyone at this level of social development should rightly be, they do not however make them saints.
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I may have found a slight problem with the idea that Chinampas are going to revolutionize our agriculture: The Aztecs grew maize on them (amongst a few other things which we also don't have).
So those 7 harvests a year? Extremely unlikely as our crops are simply not able to grow that fast. And we do have mild winters, which is still enough to halt growth.
The other civilization that uses something similar are the Chinese, and those use rice.
I honestly don't know if we have any crop that can actually grow that fast. Wheat, under ideal conditions (that means high temperatures year round) can maybe reach 3-4 harvests a year but that only looks at how fast they can actually grow. Sunlight hours matter too as many species control their growth through that to prevent them from germinating in winter.
I also found something interesting for Expanding snail cultivation and a reason to Main it. Sea Silk.
We are in the right climate range for these to exist and we can use it to start on dominating the Fine Textiles trade. And it should synergize extremely well with our dye industry. We source it from the same area and can process it on site.
So those 7 harvests a year? Extremely unlikely as our crops are simply not able to grow that fast. And we do have mild winters, which is still enough to halt growth.
The other civilization that uses something similar are the Chinese, and those use rice.
I honestly don't know if we have any crop that can actually grow that fast. Wheat, under ideal conditions (that means high temperatures year round) can maybe reach 3-4 harvests a year but that only looks at how fast they can actually grow. Sunlight hours matter too as many species control their growth through that to prevent them from germinating in winter.
I also found something interesting for Expanding snail cultivation and a reason to Main it. Sea Silk.
We are in the right climate range for these to exist and we can use it to start on dominating the Fine Textiles trade. And it should synergize extremely well with our dye industry. We source it from the same area and can process it on site.
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After one of our first war with a nomad horde hero, we absorbed an entire tribe, and decreed that all women who do not want to be married to divorce and resettle elsewhere.
Since then, our traits evolved into CA and Greater Justice, which made us even nicer and even more generous.
Yes, the Ymaryn are that nice.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Yes, I do. It's much more likely that her own nomad values would prompt her to leap at the chance to connect herself to someone strong, than that the People would cast her out otherwise.
Well, by modern standards those women were all accessories to attempted murder; should they have been executed instead?
Marriage-for-pragmatic-necessity has been the lot of many (most?) women for thousands of years. That's not the same thing as rape.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
I don't remember that...
Let me check.
Edit: ugh, Can you tell me which update?
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Its almost as if we have a trait about taking in people especially those in need.
Stop: Magnus-Domon speaketh
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
magnus-domon speaketh
I am sure you can tell them that they're is wrong with less profanities, insults and aggressive tone; it's not nearly enough to merit an infraction, but certainly enough for a warning for marginal behavior, please don't repeat this kind of behaviour.
Have a good day.[
I am sure you can tell them that they're is wrong with less profanities, insults and aggressive tone; it's not nearly enough to merit an infraction, but certainly enough for a warning for marginal behavior, please don't repeat this kind of behaviour.
Have a good day.[
I'm saying that there is undoubtedly corruption and abuse on a personal level, but the system says that once they no longer had combatants they were to be welcomed as refugees if they were willing to stay, or exiled(which meant death on the steppes) if they weren't.
Keep definitions clear:
-Personal abuse = Individuals doing it. This is an inevitable form of abuse in bronze age, or even modern warfare. You have a lot of well armed young men, with a large number of largely defenseless former enemies.
-Institutional = The system encouraging it. The system as it was at the time does not encourage it and originally discouraged it, but the Northern Marches picked up values which did over time even as the rest of the system frowns upon the practice.
So on the scale of wartime abuses:
-Slaughter - Happens but not systematically, unless they keep coming. Our objective is to drive them away to begin with, but you can't really track when a warrior does murder on a hostile population.
-Outright Rape - Happens, but the use of Carrion Eaters(who, remember, are shamans, and thus religious authorities) dampens the practice from becoming acceptable so long as our core cultural values reflect Justice and Symphony.
-Slavery - De Jure illegal. De Facto happens in a limited manner, Nomad chiefs are regularly subdued and their tribes scattered across our population as low status members(since they can't do most of the skilled labor besides animal husbandry). Said former-nomads are the most likely to commit offences which turn them into half-exiles.
-Wife raiding - Happens, even if technically illegal. I believe this actually evolved as an 'acceptable' outlet in general. While the Ymaryn forbids outright raiding for wives, and the attached Carrion Eaters are going to put a stop to the rapes(even if just to stop them from catching diseases), they can follow the letter of the law while violating the spirit by creating an environment where the captive population is strongly incentivized to marry the warriors by leveraging their native culture.
-Looting - Happens, but legally they are required to put all the war loot towards the communal piggy for distribution, which dampens spirits a little for this.
-Torture - Systematic. We actually have our Carrion Eaters rescue enemy warriors for the Blackbirds to torture for intel.
Overall, we're doing...pretty mixed, but we're definitely pissing off all the neighbors for unrelated reasons(especially when our 'nice' treatment means the opposite to their culture)
A very thoughtful analyses and I agree with most of it, but you should keep in mind that the distinction between personal and low level institutional abuse is blurry and that blurry area is corruption which is to say the checks and balances against socially unacceptable practices failing through small group conspiracies. When/if these practices become widespread enough you get cultural change.
Dug up some details about Roman soldiers not being allowed to marry, which was of course, predictably unenforceable.
I don't believe our war hero is dumb enough. Plus, it might result in the King's wrath rather than great law of peace, or whatever.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I mean, AN said that the fatherhood vote brings her along with him.
And Hiawatha and Deganawida's Great Law of Peace was in part brought together out of Hiawatha's grief at losing his children
Bringing her along doesn't mean he will bring her on the battlefield.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Really? We predominantly kill only their warriors and take their population as low class citizens. Taking them as slaves would be a direct step down.
Paying tribute is NOT more moral than war. Giving the bully your lunch money is not more moral than fighting back when he tries to pound you for not doing it. Yeah, more people get hurt in the short term, but it doesn't enable assholery.
That's pretty much malarkey. We absorb their populations, and then the exact same pressures (psychological, hormonal and social) which push people into marriage all the time push them into marriage as well.
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- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Spirits be praised that no enemy War Hero would ever manage to attack and sack the army camp with a small group while the army is out fighting. And living on the march will do wonders for her formative years.