High econ brings us to yellow again.
We're probably going to need to send some guys over to the Trading Post at some point to avoid skirting the edge repeatedly.
Stability -1->0 (neutral)
-JUSTICE +1
Justice has been Enforced.
Centralization 3->4
-JUSTICE +1
Reminder Yellow is at 5 and the roads are still crappy.
New Settlement seems to have been prematurely credited?
Trade Status
Resource
Status
Rivals
Luxuries
Amber
Known only
Fine Pottery
Minor
Xohyssiri
Fine Dye
Dominating
Hathatyn, Trelli
Fine Textiles
None
Xohyssiri, Swamp Folk, Trelli
Furs
Known only
Glass
Marginal
Xohyssiri
Gold
Lesser trading
Hathatyn, Metal Workers, Trelli
Silver
Leading
Hath, MW, Xoh, Trelli
Salt
Dominating
None, Trelli
Spices
None
Trelli
Wine
Leading
Hath, Trelli
Strategic
Copper
Significant
Hath, Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW, Trelli
Bronze
None
Trelli
Tin
None
MW (in), TH (in), Hath (in), HK (in), Trelli
Iron
Non-traded dominant
None
Cultural
Pilgrimage
Significant
Thunder Speakers, Xoh
Changes:
-Amber - Discovered the existence of amber. Nobody has it.
-Fine Pottery - Unchanged. Still Xohyssiri game only.
-Fine Dye - Still Dominant, but threatened by Trelli. Increasing dye production may be useful to establish a greater lead.
-Fine Textiles - Trelli have entered the market. Nobody big here yet.
-Furs - Discovered the existence of furs. Nobody has it.
-Glass - Unchanged. Still just us and the Xohyssiri.
-Gold - Trelli have entered the market. Nobody big here yet.
-Silver - Trelli have entered the market. Nobody big here yet, though we're leading. I wonder if our trade balance would drop if we use up significant amounts of silver for currency.
-Salt - Trelli have entered the market, but even they have no answer for Salterns.
-Wine - Trelli have entered the market and are threatening our lead.
-Copper - Trelli have entered the market, but nobody's really competing much.
-Bronze - Trelli are selling bronze. This is actually good for us in some ways.
-Tin - Trelli are selling Tin in near dominant amounts, so we know what the big regional source is.
-Pilgrimage - Unchanged for now
Melee Close formation
Daggers
Maces
Light Shields
Spears
Two-Handed Clubs
Provinces seem to be in an exploratory mood, as they settle a lot of stuff. Hatriver is growing some greenwalls.
Something was distinctly odd with the weather, all records indicating that it had gone through numerous swings over the past several generations, with the general consensus being that it had grown far wetter than usual. This had resulted in a huge number of storms in and coming off the sea, disrupting fishing and trade. The weather had also made the food supply unstable, although the push to enforce the ancient rules on how to properly manage granaries and the push towards increasing the amount of black soil for use in areas where it wasn't already deeper than a grown man's leg made sure that the disruptions were more about fluctuations in what was stored rather than what was getting into the People's bellies.
Well, good thing we went with Balanced Black Soil...though we got a 3 foot thick layer so while everyone else is suffering a bit of food disruption, we just shrug it off again.
For his part, Rulhuthyn felt more than a little out of his depth, often relying on old precedent and advisors more than his own judgement a lot of the time, but then again the old laws were often very clear that that was what the king was supposed to do, especially when uncertain. Still, there were a number of strange new situations that were cropping up from all the things going on.
And here we have a triumph of Hierarchy. When the King's Admin stats are not that good, he can fall back on the advisors and precedent.
Granted, precedent isn't very good, but it's enough to avoid disasters.
"Sooooo... I've been reviewing the petition you gave me, and I still find myself somewhat confused by how exactly this all works," Rulhuthyn said to the set of clerks who were trying to explain the situation..
"Well, you see, the management of Valleyhome has been growing increasingly complex as more and more people live there, and some clerks started to make a number of administrative shortcuts that have started to turn into something that we think will greatly simplify things once we get the king's backing to tackle them," the clerk explained.
"Yes, yes, I get that you want my support, but I'm still struggling with how it all works," the king said, trying to get across his confusion and frustration.
"Ah, yes, I suppose there may have been some confusion," the younger clerk in the group says while looking over the initial message sent to the king. At a glance from the older clerk, he says, "Right, for a while clerks have been using the unit of the bwyll in accounting, which is generally the amount of grain or equivalent needed to feed a grown man for a day. The munbwyll and the sonbwyll are larger values, thirty and four hundred bwyll each, respectively. Every person is expected to need about one sonbwyll a year to keep themselves fed."
Thinking this over, the king said, "Okay, that makes sense I guess, but I'm still failing to see why the clerks need so much silver."
"Right, right, the bwyll has just been a way to keep ledgers balanced and plan for the future, but in Valleyhome there were so many people that many of the clerks were having trouble keeping track of who had received what. Some of them started handing out little clay tokens stamped with the word bwyll on them to workers who had earned the day's rations, to be handed back in. Unfortunately, at some point workers started making their own tokens. However, the traders and smiths had a practice that we are fairly certain should help solve this issue, and help streamline administration greatly. You see, when making trades, the traders will typically bring along a number of small slugs of silver so that they can fine adjust the total value of goods they are trading, and the smiths often make similar slugs out of otherwise useless things like lead to measure just how much metal they are using. The two have been refining off each other for a bit now, and we think that by combining all of this together. If we make bwyll tokens out of something like silver then they won't be something that anyone can just make. More than that, they would have a guaranteed amount of silver so the traders can use them too. This would unload an enormous amount of effort currently on the admins to the people, and would make trading simpler as the king himself can back up the weight and purity of the silver used in the tokens," the senior clerk explained, now realizing what needed to be filled in.
"I think I get it, but I'm not exactly seeing how this makes your life easier," the king said, trying to puzzle out the implications of this new scheme.
"Instead of having to look up who has done their work for us - rather difficult in the cities with so many people and enough people moving around that those in charge of food distribution can get confused - we can just issue the tokens in one place and they can turn them in elsewhere. Each individual can keep track of their own contributions, and the clerks at the granaries can more effectively keep track of whether they need to requisition more supplies locally just by noting how many tokens they have on hand, sending them back to the central admin buildings for redistribution in exchange for more resources. It simplifies things greatly, and it also lets us know if any individual is accumulating more than their fair share. Just check to see if they are hording tokens and take some of them back, like with luxuries gained through work of the third kind," the clerk detailed out. "Obviously we have a much more detailed proposal to go over with all the other clerks, but we need the king's approval to begin this project in earnest," the senior clerk detailed out.
Proto-currency, though given this King's obvious difficulty with it, doing it all at once might be trouble.
Rulhuthyn considered this. He had obviously already talked with the Admin Chief about it, and while the man thought it had promise, he was both divorced from the lower level interests who had thought this up, and as king he needed to hear the proposal personally. Not quite sure what to do, he glanced over at his newest advisor, Lolwyna. A protege among the shamans and priests, the younger astrologer had been instrumental in helping to deal with the biting insects that had become more populous in the wet weather that had become the norm. Obsessed with the relationships between the heavens and the earth, and with the transmutation of things, she was among the finest of astrologers and mystics. Distant, ethereal, baggy eyed from long nights watching the stars or communing with spirits, thin from her obsessions often causing her to forget to eat, her hair cut short and bleached an unnatural colour with limewater, she was distinctly not an attractive woman... and yet Rulhuthyn found her strangely alluring and her presence was almost intoxicating. Perhaps it was that as a warrior he had constantly been close to death, and as a king his position was a sacred one, but the shamans both terrified and excited him with powers he did not understand, and Lolwyna was very powerful in that regard.
Seems she has some difficulties with interpersonal relations, but definitely REALLY good at dealing with vermin and chemistry.
The next major issue was a meeting with the king, the Spirit Chief, and several priests over an issue that had been cropping up of late, a somewhat distressing one from Rulhuthn and the priest's perspective. In short, there were stories cropping up of bored young men abusing horses. While as a charioteer the king understood that young horses could take some time getting used to a harness, the new practice that had been cropping up involved young men - typically with too much beer and wine in their systems - hopping onto the backs of horses and then trying to stay atop the poor animals as long as they could as the poor creatures were obviously frightened out of their minds by having something on their backs. It was cruel and unnecessary and the king was certain that there would be little trouble in banning it, until he had an odd dream of a chariot team without a chariot, of getting twice as many charioteers for less cost. It was a strange and troublesome dream, and he was forced to bring it up at the meeting. Were the gods speaking to him, were demons, or had some greedy part of him just imagined a way to double his cavalry forces? That set the priests to arguing with each other when he told them.
What to do about the horse abuse practice?
[] [Horse] Crush it
[] [Horse] Ignore it (-1 Religious Authority)
[] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
Oh no. This is an immense boon to us, since horse riders are far better messengers than chariots, and also better at war...
...but this means the Nomads are also not very far from ditching chariots, which is when they become utter nightmares.
While that debate was raging with the priests, and in Rulhuthyn's heart and stomach, new reports began to come in from the expeditions sent out by Greenshore and the Stallion Tribes. The Stallions had gone further up the river than ever before, encountering new tribes distantly for the most part, but also discovering new things. There were hills among the plains, and further north the winters grew bitterly cold beyond imagining, killing several on the expedition and forcing their eventual turn back, but they had also reported the discovery of towering forests almost beyond imagining - trees that made those of the People look like bushes, covered in not leaves but spiky green needles. While they knew not if the People could live there - there were thinly scattered tribes to be sure, but the winters were so harsh they knew not if one could grow enough food there - but such forests were such marvels that it might be an idea to settle there. What friendly contact they had also allowed them to bring back new luxuries, like rich furs from animals adapted to the cold, and brilliant, translucent yellow rocks.
Trade post site discovered, but I think that'd be enormously exposed to Nomad raids and too distant to administrate or support without another Portable+Size advancement. On the other hand, settling in forested hills is sort of our thing so it's pretty defensible.
Do we want to make a go at it at some point? At present it's liable to trigger the Con of Lord's Honor because seriously, we can't support anyone that far out.
Meanwhile, out of Greenshore the traders there had explored the shores of the sea, detailing out features that had mostly been lost on the People, but also most significantly making contact with the Trelli in the far south-west. A large, walled city and the farms around, Trell had apparently been associated with the Hathatyn in generations past but had broken off before the disasters that had split them. They sat upon what they claimed was the Gateway of the Two Seas, their ships ensuring that none could pass between without trading with them. What lay beyond the channel they protected was unknown, but judging from their wealth and the fantastical goods they had to trade from far off lands, they probably weren't lying about there being a whole other world beyond their shores.
Former Hathatyn periphery state, with fair sized walls and extensive farms. Tempting target, but not one we can easily take. Might be more productive to creep up near them over time and then just bridge them on land.
The merchants were already making noise about wanting to go after the Trelli for their obstruction of trade and also the threat they posed to their markets with the various items they had for exchange, but the place was simply too far away to even begin to contemplate attacking.
Merchants are...being rather silly on the trade obstruction, considering we've never even seen who lies beyond yet, but the trade
Certainly not without more boats... and the boats that Trelli had tended to be sleek looking things, meant to chase down interlopers that tried to defy their demands. The resources for more boats, including the possibility of playing around with the designs, was floated, but obviously the People had other worries, such as the potential return of hostile tribes in the north, and the fact that the Hathatyn would definitely soon be at least sending raiders down the river to attempt to weaken the People's legitimacy in being in Hatriver, if perhaps not yet coming in force as they had only seized one city back from the hard pressed Highlanders.
So high Speed ships which are good at naval warfare. Definitely not going to be able to take them at sea.
Hathatyn took one city back from the Highlanders, which is unfortunate as well, but bodes well for their Heroic Warleader dying before they find the time to turn on us.
Then again the Highlanders had received something of a break in that the Thunder Speakers had apparently decided that the Thunder Horse nobility in Xohyr had grown too enamoured with the blood thirsty demons the Xohyssiri worshiped as gods and had declared open revolt. The fortunes of war and battle were still in flux down south, although the great riches and territory the empire had to drawn upon allowed them to replenish losses quickly. In fact, if anything their greatest weakness was their relative lack of high quality weapons, constrained as they were by the availability of tin to make bronze.
Lowlands are on fire again, Xohyssiri are still on top militarily, but the Thunder Speakers breaking away is doomed when the Nomads come back down for a rematch.
Still it bought the Highlanders a breather from fighting Hathatyn and adds more stress to the Xohyssiri.
"Actions risk upsetting the priests, grant the Sacred Forest fresh water so that it may grow to greater heights, and they shall be too busy entertaining pilgrims to complain," Lolwyna replied while staring contemplatively up at the twilight sky, perhaps trying to pick out the first stars of evening.
That was perhaps true. Many travelled to the Sacred Forest, and the town around the holy site and temple was becoming a small city and there were complaints of insufficient water for drinking and the latrines not being able to be emptied fast enough, even with the expansion to black soil production. Then again, there were other things calling for attention...
And here Lolwyna seems to be saying the shamans are getting political as well, and also literally too much shit to deal with from all the pilgrims.
Seems the shamans would be a little unhappy from all the religious upheavals going on.
Mouth suddenly dry as he contemplated things, Rulhuthyn then asked his favourite advisor, "And is there anything you might want or need?"
Turning away from the stars to stare at him with eyes that undoubtedly saw more than just the material, she smiled faintly and said, "Would the king grant me perhaps more than is warranted of my station?"
Rulhuthyn considered for a moment before he said, "If what was asked was worthy of the People's resources, then it would not be unwarranted."
"There are places of corruption... and thus of transmutation. I wish to know, to know if terrestrial matter follows cycles as the stars," Lolwyna stated, eyes twinkling with a strange, eager hunger.
The king knew that look, and knew that it was not such a small request. She would demand much, demand resources and assistance, and that would step on toes. If she produced good enough results that might quell all dissent, but there were no sure things when dealing with the mystical, and even new insights might not be enough to quiet criticism against her and her sponsor.
Grant her request?
[] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
[] [Hero] No, that would be wrong (Unknowable Mystic Hero response)
Okay, so Study Tailings here brings a huge boon, but is expensive and sounds a lot like a foolish king indulging a lover.
Possible things to do with Tailings:
-Discovering that you can reprocess Tailings for more metal.
-Discovering that the smelting reaction is reversible back to ore.
-Refining Sulfur and breaking into alchemy?
Bunch of cool stuff, though it seems everyone is already set.
I expect the trading outpost to handle that for us. That's their whole job. Unless we get an option to make a new outpost by them, I'm fine with leaving it.
So...is anyone else concerned about the fact that the lowland nations have, apparently, massive numbers lacking only good weapons like our iron?
If there are no more opportunities to peacefully settle the lowlands, then we need to seriously consider exploiting the endless strife there to start seizing slices. Because otherwise the people living there may eventually become a force too great for us to stop.
This seem reasonable. Especially since I'm inclined to take the risky choice most everywhere else:
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
Okay guys, does anyone else want to try Vasalising the Trelli next full turn?
They are one city, with one port, in about a turn and a half we could subjugate them and turn them into a Vassal.
They are massive dicks anyway and are threatening our trade dominance, if we did vassalise them we would make massive amounts of money over our new trade control over them.
What do you guys think?
Should we vassalise them next turn if we can?
Ignoring the question of their actual degree of dickishness, I'm not confident our intel on them is good enough to make that call. I really don't think we have enough information to judge if they are only just a city and one port, with no real support from the rest of the neighboring lands. Particularly as they've been regularly described as 'super rich' from all rumors. I sincerely doubt that they would be an easy conquest, even if the massive distance issues were worked out.
If you want to make them a target, I'd recommend finishing wrapping around the !Black Sea's northern shore first, and ideally allying with, or otherwise bringing the Metal Workers under our umbrella.
Or going through the Hathryn, and wrapping around the south shore until you meet them on that side. Ideally because they fell apart and we adopted their people, not because we headbutted them to death.
I'm kind of hoping we can find a civ in Not!Russia to trade with. We can probably keep a trade route semi-open with our awesome boats, but it's extremely unlikely we could protect a colony over there.
Eh, I'm not sure they're particularly civilized yet. Not with the same sort of surpluses you're finding down in the !Fertile Crescent region. Aside from the difficulties of dealing with the weather that far north, they're also within horseriding distance of Nomadistan, which tends to impair civilization building.
Guys wouldn't implementing the currency in Valleyhome and in Valleyhome only, cause a class imbalance as the people inside Valleyhome are able to stock up on the currency before it gets fully implemented elsewhere making it so that those outside Valleyhome will have less currency to start with than those inside?
Possibly, if things work poorly. The plan is to keep an eye our for people hording tokens, though, and have the government confiscate them if it happens.
Corruption may result in people breaking the initial maximum wallet size laws, unfortunately.
The entire trade system is built on expectations at this point per WOG. We have no trade contracts. We have no currency. If they go against expectations, it's very likely that they won't be allowed back at all!
Is it possible for a Hero to be skilled in all areas instead of just one or two? What would they even be called? Such a hero would become legendary for sure.
[X] [Curr] Yes, for everyone (Stability loss?, Other effects?, establishes currency)
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
Or going through the Hathryn, and wrapping around the south shore until you meet them on that side. Ideally because they fell apart and we adopted their people, not because we headbutted them to death
Depends on whether "skilled" means "Heroic" or just competent. Being Heroic in all areas would probably be like rolling six dice and getting straight sixes.
The entire trade system is built on expectations at this point per WOG. We have no trade contracts. We have no currency. If they go against expectations, it's very likely that they won't be allowed back at all!
Again, where does it say that?
Where does it say that if they don't do what's expected they won't be allowed back in?
It just says it's expected, not forced or penalised, just 'expected' same as women are expected not to become warriors or king but can anyway with no legal repercussions
Against someone that cheerfully ignores all evidence thrown his way? Heck no. I have to show him very specifically how he's wrong to get it to stick at all, and I'm still expecting this to pop up again another few turns from now.
Its not worth it. Its not worth your time, their time, or the threads time. If someone continues to disagree with you over the course of several posts, the best move is to disengage as nothing is being accomplished by either side.
So...is anyone else concerned about the fact that the lowland nations have, apparently, massive numbers lacking only good weapons like our iron?
If there are no more opportunities to peacefully settle the lowlands, then we need to seriously consider exploiting the endless strife there to start seizing slices. Because otherwise the people living there may eventually become a force too great for us to stop.
Hmm...it has been a while since we got a pop update; i think back when we first got Valleyhome to true city status, we were at ~300k-400k total, with 80-100k in the city? And that was more under centralized control than anyone but the then TH empire, and that might have counted their subordinates too? @Academia Nut how is our population looking nowadays, both in actual number and in comparison to other civs?
If the west of Hatriver is open land, then that's even easier. But I was under the impression that our entire border in that direction was entirely either Hathryn or Highland territory.
Again, where does it say that?
Where does it say that if they don't do what's expected they won't be allowed back in?
It just says it's expected, not forced or penalised, just 'expected' same as women are expected not to become warriors or king but can anyway with no legal repercussions
Sort of? It's sort of half-barter, half-mutual-gift-giving. Like, outside the People, the traders show up at some other village and have all sorts of things they're willing to exchange, and there will be haggling, but a good portion of it is also "Oh, we present to you this fine gift of dyes" with the unspoken but understood message that they expect a gift back in return, and that if one is not received, or if it is not big enough, then maybe next time the traders swing by they won't have a gift, or at least as not as nice as one. As for currency, the closest is the dye itself since it can be apportioned out in small amounts, with some of the precious metals also starting to get into that "easily carried and divided" area.
Any other questions? The only difference is that the Trill have formalized the system instead of doing on an ad hoc basis. Which we likely would have done if we weren't the "rich recluses" of the local civs.
Edit: And I notice that you still haven't presented any evidence for your arguments. Any of them.
If the west of Hatriver is open land, then that's even easier. But I was under the impression that our entire border in that direction was entirely either Hathryn or Highland territory.
If the west of Hatriver is open land, then that's even easier. But I was under the impression that our entire border in that direction was entirely either Hathryn or Highland territory.
I mean...considering the Trelli used to be associated with (whether that means province, colony, vassal, or etc) the Hathatyn, i think their western claims were probably legit
Yeah, but what if it doesn't work and blows up in our faces? That would set currency back. And our current king is a soldier, not equipped to roll out sweeping administrative changes. So sure, let's take hold of this innovation, but in bite-sized chunks.
Any other questions? The only difference is that the Trill have formalized the system instead of doing on an ad hoc basis. Which we likely would have done if we weren't the "rich recluses" of the local civs.
Any other questions? The only difference is that the Trill have formalized the system instead of doing on an ad hoc basis. Which we likely would have done if we weren't the "rich recluses" of the local civs
Also thats mutual gift exchange not telling the merchants what to do, that's different from basically saying 'if you don't do this you can't come back in', it's saying 'we want a gift, you'll get a gift in return' it's a different system and it's the traders saying that they want good gifts or maybe they won't bring as good a gift next time, thus giving them more power and independence
I mean...considering the Trelli used to be associated with (whether that means province, colony, vassal, or etc) the Hathatyn, i think their western claims were probably legit
Could be, but for them to regress along the entire coast would be...odd, given they seem to have emerged relatively recently and their heartlands are more southward. I think it's just a trading post that went rogue after one too many stability drops. There might yet be someone on the southwest shore to meet! Or if not, then there might be land free to claim.
