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Paths of Civilization

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BungieONI said:
Actually we die outright if we even brush -4 Stability so that's kinda a bigger action equivalent than any I can think of.
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Our civilization collapses, but there are remnants. We've seen it happen twice before with the Lowlanders and the WC both dying due to stability failure. (ST died due to negative military during an active attack)
So, on the level of 50 to 100 action-equivalents probably, along with ~half of our per-turn action-equivalents. Like I said, massive.
Candesce said:
Thus, we can say our civilization doesn't just have a current HP stat, but also a degree of armoring that controls how often that HP stat will actually be reduced.

And we've just lost our best heal; we're a lot more dependent on making sure that armor's sufficient, right now.
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We've already fixed the Observance problem. Neither Palace nor Library seem likely to give us additional resistance to our stability drops, which now come from
1) Stupid decisions
2) Natural disasters
3) Immigration
4) Trade losses

pblur said:
Wish I could double like this. Those numbers are really important to compare.
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Huh? Secondary action-equivalents, in case it wasn't obvious. Otherwise I have to deal with 0.5s and that's just annoying.
 
BungieONI said:
Wasn't meaning to imply it, the thought behind that statement was that the sheer damage of our implosion would knock us back so hard into the early stone age that we would not be able to recover before we got eaten by the TH. I'd like to avoid that.
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Eh, HK has survived a couple civil wars without that drastic of effects.

Still, let's not go there. Not-civil-war trumps all other stuff, but fortunately is rarely an immediate concern.
 
McLuvin said:
Doesn't that make them especially vulnerable to Nomad raiding? If so that is going to hurt us later
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Depends on how strong the WW is made to become.

Does mean that we're unlikely to find competitors in the lowland wine trade for a good while, though.

pblur said:
Or get fast healing 2
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...GURPS?

VoidZero said:
Sailing missions when? We really ought to look further in our pond, there might be a spanning empire out there and we wouldn't have a clue.

More concepts, civilizations, and stuff are keys in maintaining our civilization. Foreign wonders too, very interested in those; we can't be the only group tripping in wonders.
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Agreed.
 
notgreat said:
Our civilization collapses, but there are remnants. We've seen it happen twice before with the Lowlanders and the WC both dying due to stability failure. (ST died due to negative military during an active attack)
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The Confederacy also collapsed due to stability after splitting off from the Dead Priests before their remnants became the Highlanders
 
pblur said:
Or get fast healing 2 and outsustain the damage.
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Without Grand Sacrifice, we can't do that; we're more limited by actions (not equivalents) and time than any number of resources for stability recovery.

Note that larger festivals aren't getting us more stability at a time, and that Enforce Justice isn't limited by our supply of resources at all.
 
notgreat said:
Um what? Those two seem completely separate.
The former is our stability. Stability is important, because if we hit -4 we lose massive action-equivalents.

The latter preserve our culture, but they seem unlikely to improve our stability. We want them, but they're not time-critical. I personally wanted to grab the Golden Age instead of the Grand Temple, but I got outvoted. Golden Ages seem to give us better results if we want more civilizational progress, at least going be the extremely short one we had last time...

Having more people and richer people is more important than having a more culturally homogeneous people.


We need:
1) 2 actions+3 econ Dyes
2) 3 actions+6 econ salt
That's it. Maybe a bit more if we think we can Dominate wine as well. That's ~2-3 turns worth of stats/actions. And it means that we'll have enough guaranteed income that we can afford megaprojects pretty much continuously.


edit: In comparison:
The Games - 8-12 actions, 4-6 Mysticism and Art, 2 Econ
Grand Palace - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ and Art
Great Temple - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ and Art
Great Dam - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ
The Library - 8-12 actions, 4-6 Mysticism and Art, 2 Econ
The Mountain - 16-28 actions, 8-14 Econ
Place to the Stars - 14-20 actions, 7-10 Econ, ??? Mysticism
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I'm honestly not sure that one main will get us to dominate Dye, although I agree that it's very possible from what AN has said. Although we are very likely to both grab a new Saltern AND expand one to get the +1 diplo from dominating salt and another +1 diplo for two Salt expansions. Which will take 5 additional actions. And we probably will want to dominate wine. It all adds up.

I do agree completely that we should do these things in the near future, definitely before we go do megaprojects other than the Library. I just think that going to megaproject support to quickly finish the Great Temple (which otherwise will be taking up a main action every turn remember) and then getting the Library before trying to dominate lots of trade goods makes sense to me. The Library is just so good with our current values, and attaching it to a Crow Grand Temple to make a proto-university sounds like a great idea to me.
 
pblur said:
This is one too many province actions. We have 4 currently. Last turn we got 5 because secondary expand econ was doubled. If we're on megaproject support with enough resources, we'll get 6 by a main megaproject being doubled. We can't get 7 AFAIK.
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No, if you look at the last update:
Academia Nut said:
Provinces [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] More Boats, [Sec] Study Stars
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Two main actions and a secondary. The Law megaproject doubles the effects of one of those main actions, giving us three main actions and a secondary. AFAIK.
 
notgreat said:
Neither Palace nor Library seem likely to give us additional resistance to our stability drops, which now come from
1) Stupid decisions
2) Natural disasters
3) Immigration
4) Trade losses
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You left out "ambitious governors." Also possible losses from the True City breaking, complications from governing the True City, and invasions.

Also you're setting us up for trade losses, so, you know.
pbluekan said:
Two main actions and a secondary.
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That's already including the Law; it's a description of what they actually did.
 
This generation's weather is bad, but not as bad when compared to the one eons ago; that one when we were a small village.

So we should stockpile some economy and stability when that drought level or doom comet strikes again.

Greater Good, you will be sorely missed.
 
pbluekan said:
No, if you look at the last update:

Two main actions and a secondary. The Law megaproject doubles the effects of one of those main actions, giving us three main actions and a secondary. AFAIK.
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As Candesce said, not quite. The provinces did a seconday Expand Econ (along with secondary study stars and main boats), the Law doubled the expand econ to a Main, so we saw it as a Main in the update.
 
pbluekan said:
No, if you look at the last update:

Two main actions and a secondary. The Law megaproject doubles the effects of one of those main actions, giving us three main actions and a secondary. AFAIK.
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The law preferentially doubles a secondary. In this case, since we're on balanced, it doubled a secondary expand econ.
 
It's just if we want to get a solomon we should take justice a lot and if the only reason not to is roads then we should take that.
 
Umi-san said:
is Mathulmyn a female or male consort?
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Mathylmyn's viewed differently in different places, but the consort version is female:
Academia Nut said:
Mathulmyn is almost more a common name for an idea than a proper god. There are three depictions depending on location: the first is a thoughtful man of middle age with elaborately braided hair and a full beard; the second is an elderly man with a truly long beard and bald held, hunched over either with age or to whisper advice into an ear; the third is a noble, matronly woman in fine dress reclining upon a chair and with a knowing smile.
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My plan for the coming turns is to Waagh the Xoh. Child sacrifice is an abomination for which the only punishment is extermination.
 
McLuvin said:
It must be noted that due to the preeminence of male kings, his male forms are more likely to be solidified, especially because there are two of them in comparison to the one female version.
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On that note...i think the last we heard about gender norms and the situation regarding female leaders was back before/during Magwyna's reign...
@Academia Nut how have things evolved on that front in the...i guess at this point several centuries since then?
 
McLuvin said:
his male forms are more likely to be solidified
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If Mathylmyn is the voted pick, we probably get to vote on the form displayed:
Academia Nut said:
Take a wild guess what the next phase of the arguments about the temple will be :p

Thus far, outside of Crow who is different in that he has multiple aspects rather than depictions, the depictions have been very local and thus conflicting ideas haven't particularly come up yet.
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That's why Mathylmyn would be my first pick, and Crow my second.
 
McLuvin said:
It must be noted that due to the preeminence of male kings, his male forms are more likely to be solidified, especially because there are two of them in comparison to the one female version.
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Only if the male kings are gay.

It will depend much more on whether M becomes the King of Gods rather than the God of Kings. In such a case, the preeminence of male kings will strongly impact whether his male forms become solidified.

Candesce said:
If Mathylmyn is the voted pick, we probably get to vote on the form displayed:

That's why Mathylmyn would be my first pick, and Crow my second.
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We could rush a temple extended project instead of the library ;)

Tbh, I'm definitely shifting more toward a Megaproject policy. While I want to have the diplo bonus I feel somewhat confident that we could just burn through the Temple and Library then achieve it afterwards.

Edit: Again, better pottery makes us better able to trade wine.
 
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Hangwind said:
My plan for the coming turns is to Waagh the Xoh. Child sacrifice is an abomination for which the only punishment is extermination.
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There's no indication we'll have a casus belli in order to attack them militarily. In fact, in story we probably do not know they do child sacrifice. Even if we did, we'd have to attack the Thunder Horse to get to them, which, again, no casus belli.

If you want to punish them though, you could always take lots of Art Patronage actions. They have a dominant position in Fine Pottery and have Centre of Trade, if we can up our position from "Minor" there we'll cause stability drops and make them mad enough they might try to attack us. Admittedly stability drops are very cheap for them to cure with those self-same child sacrifices, but it's the only thing we can really do to hurt them right now. Probably not worth it in my opinion, but its something to keep in mind for the future.
 
Yeah, but seriously, if we have determined ourselves to be 'good enough' on stability (which I would only say at stability 1 at this point, and even then could probably be convinced with a festival or something) then our best bet is setting up a trade post.

It's a province that will literally dedicate itself to generating diplomacy, and combined with our new boat tech, I can see one of the things it does on a constant basis is push to evolve boat tech, in addition to sailing missions to find us new trade partners. It's literally one main action that will make this trait much stronger. I suppose there could be an argument for us staying isolated so we gain more diplomacy by having a smaller market, but I honestly think we'll be much stronger with this in general.
 
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