- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
It isn't. And once again needless complaining while we cant do anything is a waste, so stop salting up the thread.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
This is childish and quite petty, but we all have our flaws.
VINDICATION!
VINDICATION!
Depends on what the options are. I would very much prefer to take the whole thing back but we might not be able to because the reactionary current might be worse.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Does symphony give us extra actions in exchange for collective work? I don't think I've ever seen it proc. Even if I tried does that puts you on the low end (fast finish) during a crisis period when work is likely to be slow. Still pretty unlikely, but if that's how symphony works then I understand where you're coming from.
Hercules's dirty diapers, we had the chance to set up geographic administration, and the thread chose convoluted adoption? I didn't even comment on that update because it seemed so bloody obvious. How the heck did this happen? Like, what was the thought process?
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Again, you don't know yet. Don't accuse me of salting the thread if your going to act as if you know exactly the proportions of how bad it's going to be. I've said it's my opinion, you've said 'I'm right'.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
The question is not whether it's bad or good.
The question is how bad is it.
And to that we can only wait and see.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
It gave at least 1 Main extra on Saltern because we needed that much to finish when we did. Could have been more, we don't know.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Eh, let's see how bad it actually turns out to be before we burn everything to the ground. The Ymaryn's gotten through worse before.
The correct term is "Gygo".
Saying Hades just makes you sound like some Thunder Horse hooligan.
*Ahem*
The correct term is "Gygo".
Saying Hades just makes you sound like some Thunder Horse hooligan.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
It's the bloody allergy the thread has to the word Land.
They see it and immediately think tsarist Russia.
Hell they saw districts and jumped to gerrymandering. Cus one flaw means we dismiss an efficient, simple and highly beneficial (no city can function without admin districts) system...
And yes I am kicking a dead horse.
Last edited:
- Location
- Europe
Of course it matters how advice is presented. If Lailoken wants people to stop ignoring his advice, he should stop being condescending. I don't care if that pisses him off, it's the truth.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
You are though your opinion is 'you all fucked up and should back out but we wont because it Tax's mark 2' your opinion is to then repeat this multiple times without even trying to explain how this is even comparable,
I predict that next turn we will have an option to back out at the likely cost of stability, dethroning and increased familial control of state, which I will be fine with. The fact of the matter is the reason a lot of people voted for what they did is because they thought it be the safe option because they didn't want to fuck things up during a mega project, which means I really tired of people always going for mega projects to answer every problem ever because it leads top things like this.
- Location
- Australia
"This seems like a patch job which won't provide long-term benefits but solves the problem at least for now and doesn't cause any long-term issues before we can switch to a better system."
The intent wasn't like with the tax reform where we went after the most maximally best option, but rather our attempt at moderation.
Last edited:
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I'm not picking on anybody, either in general or in particular. I don't understand why you guys feel like that was toxic behavior. Feel free to enlighten me.
The part about smugness is about human expression. People get invested in arguments; it's only natural to feel vindicated when you're proven right. It's personal opinion that this hypothetical person should be able to express this satisfaction rather than being forced to bottle it up. The downside is having to experience the other side being smug when you're wrong. It's give and take, and as long as you don't see smugness as a personal insult then it's all in good fun and adds color to human interaction.
Friends tease each other, politeness and restraint are for distant colleagues. And we're all friends here!
The second part, about people complaining and blaming each other rather than accepting blame; I don't think I'm the one with a toxic attitude here. When you mess up, you should own your mistakes and learn from them. This is universal.
Casting blame prevents you from learning from the experience, and makes the situation less pleasant for everybody else.
I'm not casting blame. I'm not being smug. I have nothing to be smug about. I'm just suggesting that rather than complaining, a person should accept responsibility and attempt to do better.
Otoh, if you're really that close to backing out of participating, might I suggest a short vacation instead? It really improves the experience of a trainwreck to watch it from a distance. And then you inevitably hop on board the next train because the whole thing is too riveting to stay away from for long.
I do this myself, alternating between heavy, light, and null participation as necessary to enhance the experience and avoid excessive salt.
Last edited:
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Wait. The megaproject made us pick what we thought was the safe option. Fair enough.
But was that REALLY the problem here? Seems like the problem was misunderstanding the options, which is unrelated to the megaproject.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
yes it was, the misunderstanding the options did not change the fact that no one was willing to consider other choices because they jumped on what they thought was safe, which wouldn't have been done if they didn't feel the need to pick the safe one.
The option we chose sounded like it was the least disruptive. Adoptions are already a thing, so changing the rules to make them easier while keeping everything else seemed like less of a change than completely changing the traditional system into an often arbitrary geographic grid. That a simple grid would have meant less work for admistrators doesnt mean much if instead we just had tons of people being pissed at some random bloke vaguely close by suddenly becoming their boss.
War were declared?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][Temple] Sacred Forest
[X][Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X][Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X][Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
Walling off the city made a considerable amount of sense to help better control access too and from the overall area and thus make it easier to track what was coming in and going out of the city. The clan issue however was a bit more of a problem and the king and advisors had long discussions over it. In the end, they didn't want to too radically change the clan structures, the People had relied on them since forever, so a small patch should help correct the problem. Simply make it easier for clans to adopt new members to allow them to reorganize disparate people geographically. There was already enough movement that there were some provisions for how to deal with people who had moved to help fulfill an essential job or the like and needed to integrate into the local community, or to form new communities when settling new land. It was simple and the People had this...
Only as they started working out the implementation, someone pointed out that given the large number of people coming from outside Valleyhome from elsewhere, they couldn't apply the new rules just to Valleyhome or it would create a massive snarl. Adoption into a new clan also implied cutting ties with the old clan, and if you didn't make the process the same for all of the People you could end up in a situation where you had people who belonged to two or more clans and had competing obligations to multiple groups. Especially if you ever had a situation of someone later leaving Valleyhome, and there were also other places like Redshore where there were enough people that you could have similar dynamics. A broad change would be needed to prevent accidental imbalances.
It all seemed simple enough, just a few changes to make it significantly easier for people to change clans. This should smooth things out nicely.
Only the clan change system had been intended for people who might only ever change clans once in their lifetime, and pretty much always due to distance or destruction. Even with the changes there were still major problems with people simply not accepting that moving to another side of the city was enough to actually sever family ties, a sentiment frequently shared by both old and new clans. Accusations of spying - and the subsequent assaults and murders over said accusations - went through the roof... and then the weird effects started to crop up. Things like abusing the new ease of changing clans to artificially manipulate taxation or leadership. In one of the more absurd situations a mass of people "spontaneously" joining a clan forced it to fissure due to being too large, with many of the newcomers then spontaneously leaving one of these new clans to join the other and causing fissure again and so on and so forth, with the end result being a total of three "new" clans with entirely separate leadership who could then tip the voting process for a local sub-chief...
While some of these events were more blatant than others, the chiefs soon found themselves scrambling to control all these new forms of "legal" corruption that were springing up. An early patch to force a longer waiting period before switching clans to avoid the most ludicrous abuses ended up producing an accidental group of people who for one reason or another were de facto outside the clans. The king was all for simply going "Okay, this was a silly idea!" when word came north that someone had done something catastrophically stupid.
Negative Stability + Max Military Malus Activated!
No one was exactly sure who was in charge, and in fact given the circumstances the possibility of no one currently being in charge seemed distinctly possible, but in any case a band of warriors had occupied the village in the lowlands just beyond the cataract that separated the People from the Highlanders. The stories coming back were not exactly coherent, with some claiming that the reason they had been gathered was for a long range trading expedition into the lowlands requiring additional escorts giving the conflict, while others said that they had in fact been actively recruited for the purpose of seizing control. In any case, it sounded like the group had approached the village as traders or in the guise of traders, someone had started a fight, and then things kept going until the People had realized that they were in control of the village because there was no one to oppose them, and the men decided that since they had fought and spilled blood over the issue they didn't feel like giving it back.
While it was just one relatively minor village, the Highlanders were obviously going to be livid. A retaliation force would obviously already be on their way, and they probably wouldn't take "Uhh... sorry, this was an accident" as an answer. While several advisors suggested just letting the fools get killed as appeasement, many others expressed considerable discomfort with the idea of just abandoning members of the People, especially when it sounded like at least some of the warriors down there had thought they were only defending themselves.
Actually, as they talked, a suspicion began to grow that there was a snake among the People who had probably engineered the incident while still keeping it not the sort of blatant attack that would have the People absolutely wash their hands of the entire incident. There were some who were counseling against just cutting the perpetrators loose as it might end with the People losing any chance of figuring out what exactly had happened. Also, given reports of how efficiently the warriors had taken out the defenders of the village with their iron weapons there was a definite degree of unease over what might happen if the Highlanders didn't wipe them out.
Given this mess of hot gygo, the king had to make a decision immediately. What to do?
What to do?
[] Let the Highlanders extract their vengeance and attempt to make amends after (-1 Legitimacy, -3 Diplomacy, possibility of war with Highlanders, chance of spawning new faction in the lowlands)
[] Attempt to capture the errant warriors and then make amends with the Highlanders (-5 Diplomacy, probable war with Highlanders)
[] Reinforce position (Conquer new province, war with Highlanders)
[] Massively reinforce position (-5 Military, founds new March, war with Highlanders)
[X][Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X][Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X][Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
Walling off the city made a considerable amount of sense to help better control access too and from the overall area and thus make it easier to track what was coming in and going out of the city. The clan issue however was a bit more of a problem and the king and advisors had long discussions over it. In the end, they didn't want to too radically change the clan structures, the People had relied on them since forever, so a small patch should help correct the problem. Simply make it easier for clans to adopt new members to allow them to reorganize disparate people geographically. There was already enough movement that there were some provisions for how to deal with people who had moved to help fulfill an essential job or the like and needed to integrate into the local community, or to form new communities when settling new land. It was simple and the People had this...
Only as they started working out the implementation, someone pointed out that given the large number of people coming from outside Valleyhome from elsewhere, they couldn't apply the new rules just to Valleyhome or it would create a massive snarl. Adoption into a new clan also implied cutting ties with the old clan, and if you didn't make the process the same for all of the People you could end up in a situation where you had people who belonged to two or more clans and had competing obligations to multiple groups. Especially if you ever had a situation of someone later leaving Valleyhome, and there were also other places like Redshore where there were enough people that you could have similar dynamics. A broad change would be needed to prevent accidental imbalances.
It all seemed simple enough, just a few changes to make it significantly easier for people to change clans. This should smooth things out nicely.
Only the clan change system had been intended for people who might only ever change clans once in their lifetime, and pretty much always due to distance or destruction. Even with the changes there were still major problems with people simply not accepting that moving to another side of the city was enough to actually sever family ties, a sentiment frequently shared by both old and new clans. Accusations of spying - and the subsequent assaults and murders over said accusations - went through the roof... and then the weird effects started to crop up. Things like abusing the new ease of changing clans to artificially manipulate taxation or leadership. In one of the more absurd situations a mass of people "spontaneously" joining a clan forced it to fissure due to being too large, with many of the newcomers then spontaneously leaving one of these new clans to join the other and causing fissure again and so on and so forth, with the end result being a total of three "new" clans with entirely separate leadership who could then tip the voting process for a local sub-chief...
While some of these events were more blatant than others, the chiefs soon found themselves scrambling to control all these new forms of "legal" corruption that were springing up. An early patch to force a longer waiting period before switching clans to avoid the most ludicrous abuses ended up producing an accidental group of people who for one reason or another were de facto outside the clans. The king was all for simply going "Okay, this was a silly idea!" when word came north that someone had done something catastrophically stupid.
Negative Stability + Max Military Malus Activated!
No one was exactly sure who was in charge, and in fact given the circumstances the possibility of no one currently being in charge seemed distinctly possible, but in any case a band of warriors had occupied the village in the lowlands just beyond the cataract that separated the People from the Highlanders. The stories coming back were not exactly coherent, with some claiming that the reason they had been gathered was for a long range trading expedition into the lowlands requiring additional escorts giving the conflict, while others said that they had in fact been actively recruited for the purpose of seizing control. In any case, it sounded like the group had approached the village as traders or in the guise of traders, someone had started a fight, and then things kept going until the People had realized that they were in control of the village because there was no one to oppose them, and the men decided that since they had fought and spilled blood over the issue they didn't feel like giving it back.
While it was just one relatively minor village, the Highlanders were obviously going to be livid. A retaliation force would obviously already be on their way, and they probably wouldn't take "Uhh... sorry, this was an accident" as an answer. While several advisors suggested just letting the fools get killed as appeasement, many others expressed considerable discomfort with the idea of just abandoning members of the People, especially when it sounded like at least some of the warriors down there had thought they were only defending themselves.
Actually, as they talked, a suspicion began to grow that there was a snake among the People who had probably engineered the incident while still keeping it not the sort of blatant attack that would have the People absolutely wash their hands of the entire incident. There were some who were counseling against just cutting the perpetrators loose as it might end with the People losing any chance of figuring out what exactly had happened. Also, given reports of how efficiently the warriors had taken out the defenders of the village with their iron weapons there was a definite degree of unease over what might happen if the Highlanders didn't wipe them out.
Given this mess of hot gygo, the king had to make a decision immediately. What to do?
What to do?
[] Let the Highlanders extract their vengeance and attempt to make amends after (-1 Legitimacy, -3 Diplomacy, possibility of war with Highlanders, chance of spawning new faction in the lowlands)
[] Attempt to capture the errant warriors and then make amends with the Highlanders (-5 Diplomacy, probable war with Highlanders)
[] Reinforce position (Conquer new province, war with Highlanders)
[] Massively reinforce position (-5 Military, founds new March, war with Highlanders)
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
If you felt an angle wasn't adeqiately considered, you should have pushed it. Not the megaproject's fault if something wasn't considered.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Well everyone wanting a war with the lowlands now's your chance for it.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
People have wanted this megaproject for a long time, I have stated that the issues caused by it could be horrible as well, going into detail about possible raids, the affect it will have on the megaproject and the Marches.
Honestly you shouldn't bite people's head off for wanting a megaproject when all the previous ones have given large benefits, way more than the last time we attempted complicated, national reform that no majority really wanted. Aka the Tax issue
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] Massively reinforce position (-5 Military, founds new March, war with Highlanders)
Fuck it, lets take over the Highlanders
Fuck it, lets take over the Highlanders