It really only stop raids, it didn't stop any real invasion attempt.

Technically it did rebuff some invasions but the successful invasions are better recorded as those have a lot more impact.
The usual successful invasions were during the periods of government instability and crisis.

Weather events causing famines causing rebellion, overpopulation causing famines causing rebellion; or rebellion causing famines causing rebellion.

So the wall does work, when you have the money and food to maintain the garrisons.
 
Also to get true riding horses the saddle, the stirrup, and the horse collar need to be invented. We may be able to ride our current breeds of horse bareback, but there is no indication we have saddles yet.

TBH, horse riding requires nothing more than some limited headgear. A piece called the hackamore. Stirrups weren't even invented until well into Roman times, and are of dubious use.
 
TBH, horse riding requires nothing more than some limited headgear. A piece called the hackamore. Stirrups weren't even invented until well into Roman times, and are of dubious use.

Riding will be invented when someone says "hold my wine" and proceed to wrestle with a horse.

.....Now i want that vineyard, who knows what people will come up with when they are drunk.
 
Technically it did rebuff some invasions but the successful invasions are better recorded as those have a lot more impact.
The usual successful invasions were during the periods of government instability and crisis.

Weather events causing famines causing rebellion, overpopulation causing famines causing rebellion; or rebellion causing famines causing rebellion.

So the wall does work, when you have the money and food to maintain the garrisons.
Also note that the big thing there was it made raids entirely uneconomical, which is a massive saving of effort, since you only have to deal with those attacking for conquest and honor...and theres little of the latter to be gained barring a great horde.
 
It really only stop raids, it didn't stop any real invasion attempt.
The benefits of the Great Wall are not really open to debate. It was insanely effective in a strategic sense- stopping the raids was the whole point to it, and it discouraged numerous invasions as well because it made the Chinese a 'hard' target.

Many people look at a section of wall, note that it could be broken, and assume it was ineffective. But the wall itself was never meant to stand alone- it served as a staging point for the fortress-towns and watchtowers that dotted it's length, and in that sense it was extremely effective from a strategic standpoint- it effectively allowed the Chinese to stage forward bases and seize territory that would have otherwise been in dispute since even if they seized a section the nomad tactics didn't allow them to use the wall in a military sense. Even if the wall was circumnavigated at one point, it removed much of the nomadic advantage of mobility- if they breached the wall at one point, the only assured safe route of retreat was through the section they had breached- meaning that the massing Chinese forces knew where to go to intercept their retreat.

China was conquered by barbarians twice in history, which leads some to think the wall was ineffective- once during the Song dynasty, whose borders never even reached the Great Wall and thus rendered them unable to use it as an effective deterrent, and once by the Manchus, who were allowed to bring a huge nomadic army into China with the notion they could serve as mercenaries. Both were sort of 'idiot' moves, more the fault of rulers than the wall.

The real benefit of the Great Wall, however, is that it served as such an effective deterrent to raids that it incentivized neighboring nomadic tribes to commit to trade rather than simply raid the Chinese countryside. This naturally lead the Chinese to bring in innovations from further away, negotiate with the tribes on a level of equivalent prestige, and play them off against each other in way most sedentary civilizations simply never could.

I honestly doubt that we'll get the chance for a 'Great Wall' equivalent project, but we should go for it if we can. As stated, it's just not meant to stand alone and it's a strategic defense, not a tactical one.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, LoW is a completely cast iron bullshit trait. Greeks invented it in the 6th century BC and estimates of our time period based on surrounding civs places the region at the start of the bronze age in 3300 BC. So we invented it about 2700 years ahead of schedule.

To all players Announcement: Mary Sue is here!

The Greek invented philosophy, but they didn't really invent that specific branch of philosophy the Ymaryn is on, which is empirical testing and proto-scientific thought.
 
The benefits of the Great Wall are not really open to debate. It was insanely effective in a strategic sense- stopping the raids was the whole point to it, and it discouraged numerous invasions as well because it made the Chinese a 'hard' target.

Many people look at a section of wall, note that it could be broken, and assume it was ineffective. But the wall itself was never meant to stand alone- it served as a staging point for the fortress-towns and watchtowers that dotted it's length, and in that sense it was extremely effective from a strategic standpoint- it effectively allowed the Chinese to stage forward bases and seize territory that would have otherwise been in dispute since even if they seized a section the nomad tactics didn't allow them to use the wall in a military sense. Even if the wall was circumnavigated at one point, it removed much of the nomadic advantage of mobility- if they breached the wall at one point, the only assured safe route of retreat was through the section they had breached- meaning that the massing Chinese forces knew where to go to intercept their retreat.

China was conquered by barbarians twice in history, which leads some to think the wall was ineffective- once during the Song dynasty, whose borders never even reached the Great Wall and thus rendered them unable to use it as an effective deterrent, and once by the Manchus, who were allowed to bring a huge nomadic army into China with the notion they could serve as mercenaries. Both were sort of 'idiot' moves, more the fault of rulers than the wall.

The real benefit of the Great Wall, however, is that it served as such an effective deterrent to raids that it incentivized neighboring nomadic tribes to commit to trade rather than simply raid the Chinese countryside. This naturally lead the Chinese to bring in innovations from further away, negotiate with the tribes on a level of equivalent prestige, and play them off against each other in way most sedentary civilizations simply never could.

I honestly doubt that we'll get the chance for a 'Great Wall' equivalent project, but we should go for it if we can. As stated, it's just not meant to stand alone and it's a strategic defense, not a tactical one.
@Academia Nut
Curiosity here: How close are we to unlocking a Great Wall project of some kind after recent events?


The question was after we got the steppes legacy. Since we've gotten Iron tools, a fancy new trait that significantly increases the effectiveness of study actions and innovation rolls, a library mega project available (presumably further boosting innovation rolls/study actions), I think we have a serious shot at unlocking it.

We'll probably need to get more construction experience though :p
 
Roads towards wars
[Main] Great Temple
[Main] New Trails

Provinces - [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Build Quarry/Silver Mine, [Sec] Study Stars

Stallion Tribes [Main] War Mission - Western Nomads, [Main] Plant Forest
Western Wall [Main] War Mission - Western Nomads, [Sec] Build Watchtowers, [Sec] Build Wall

With the turning of the years, the new king declared two new major projects to help better tie the People together. The first was a new initiative to improve the trails, especially to all of the outlying settlements that were mostly serviced by mostly unmanaged paths, and a new holy site complex to serve as a grand place for shamans to gather and learn of the spirits, and for the common folk to have a most spectacular place to interface with the divine. The trails would also help the People from all over to get to this new place.

Almost immediately the arguments about where to put the new holy site began, before they could even begin to really set things up. There were four major sites that were good spots to build the structure: in Upper Valleyhome, at Rainbow Trail, in Redshore, and in the Sacred Forest. Each had their advantages and disadvantages, such as the Valleyhome location being the most distant geographically but closest to the population, while Rainbow Trail and the Sacred Forest were both considered more spiritually significant. Everyone had an opinion on things, and there was a definite push towards not giving Valleyhome even more prestige and power.

Choose a location for the new temple
[] [Temple] Upper Valleyhome
[] [Temple] Rainbow Trail
[] [Temple] Redshore
[] [Temple] Sacred Forest

Speaking of Upper Valleyhome, there were already issues springing up from the way the city had been growing of late. Careful assessment of the records showed that a significant chunk of the population were still farmers of some sort, it was just that the high capacity housing and workshops had run far enough out that pressure from farm land was forcing buildings to rise up and get denser in an attempt to still stay relatively close to the major centres of power within the city. More than one person had commented on the fact that if not for the water works the smell would have rapidly grown intolerable, although some suggested that the easy access to clean water had allowed people to press in tight like this. In either case, while disease wasn't that much of a problem and good planning kept fires from getting out of hand, there was a definite issue.

Violence.

Something about living close together gave people particularly short tempers and the number of fits of passion and spontaneous outbursts of violence was becoming a major problem, while also feeding into another problem, which in turn might be feeding the violence problem: the clans were breaking down.

Within city life the extended family clans that dominated lower level politics elsewhere just wasn't working. While the People were willing to put up with a significant amount of disruption for the greater good of the community, when clans got too big for their current living arrangements their neighbours weren't going to just move to allow them to maintain geographic continuity with each other. So large extended families got broken up across the city to find living space where it was available, simultaneously diluting out the support they could give individual members of the clan as usually only two dozen or so could stay within the same local area, while also concentrating enormous power into the clan heads, with the old laws about spinning off new clans usually mandating a certain degree of geographic isolation to make the process make sense and avoid a chief trying to artificially stuff a council.

Add in people snapping at each other to produce an enormous amount of disruption to family structures, and the traditions of power were breaking down. The People knew that they needed a certain number of chiefs and clan heads for a certain amount of population, but they were running into issues of the people who were theoretically administering the neighbourhoods having no idea who was in those neighbourhoods because vacancies kept opening up and being filled by outsiders, with the number one reason for vacanies opening up being because someone didn't know a new person, took something the wrong way, and then someone got stabbed. Also, those who felt that the people administering them were out of touch had a tendency to lash out, accelerating the breakdown process.

Oh, and of course all of this was feeding other bad behaviours, most notably theft and smuggling for the purposes of tax evasion, which also of course fed into violence as people who knew that they were doing wrong got anxious and tried to silence those who might report their illicit activities.

All in all, there was in fact a push to just claim more land so that more People could be settled elsewhere and give Valleyhome room to decompress. However, for the king there was considerable benefit to having a large number of administratively important people and the facilities to attend to their needs all in one place, so there was obvious pressure from above to keep the current arrangement and just work on fixing the issues cropping up.

City clan politics
[] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive
[] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of occupationally linked administration
[] [Clan] Leave things be

Valleyhome law
[] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)

Meanwhile out in the provinces, with the planning of the new holy site going into effect the chief of Northshore put together the resources to develop the quarry and mine to ensure that while the south would have the temple it would be made truly beautiful by the north. The push to build new trails also found a new use for the output of the mines, which was that with iron tools breaking up rocks to coat the trails with gravel and sand - especially when it was just a useless byproduct of mining - became entirely viable. These new trails were universally seen of as superior to the old style as they got far less muddy when it rained and could take heavier traffic loads. While the old style still had use and was overall cheaper as an initial investment, everyone who traveled a gravel path found it significantly more pleasant.

Smoother and faster traveling also helped the most distant provinces to send further strings of humiliated nomad chiefs before the king to demonstrate the power of the People. From the sounds of things the nomads in the west had completely fractured from the failures and many heading further west and south to escape further reprisals by the People. While the situation in the mountains where the Metal Workers lived was unknown, the People might be able to reopen contact if they so chose. Then again it might be more important to keep up diplomatic contact with the lowlands, especially since it sounded like the war that had started between the Thunder Horse and Highlanders over control of the settlements between the great rivers was particularly nasty. The Thunder Horse had numbers via their vassals and a new form of copper that some whispered was superior even to iron on their side, while the Highlanders had an extensive network of walled settlements giving them a far easier time when defending. Overall it was a stalemate.

Also the Hathatyn seemed to be on the move again, although from the way things were shaking out they were probably setting up more settlements to the west rather than attempting to contest the People's control of Southshore. There were some definite issues, but overall nothing major unless the king wanted it to be major.

Diplomatic moves?
[] [Diplo] Send missions to the east (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
[] [Diplo] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
[] [Diplo] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
 
[x] [Temple] Sacred Forest

We have discussed this quite thuroughly I have nothing more to add

[x] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)

A crack down is a stopgap measure at best what we need is more police and I am curious what the other effects are

[x] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

I am curious how our other neighbors are doing

[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
 
Last edited:
[x] [Temple] Sacred Forest

[x] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)

[x] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest

Still believe it is our best location.

[X] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive

Something isn't working, start anew. Also allows new blood to sneak in and create clans of their own with more even footing.

[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)

First step. Recognize the problem
Second step. Isolate the problem

[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

Metal Workers are important since it looks like our Thunder Horse just discovered bronze. While not as plentiful as our iron weapons, I'm sure we could still profit from our Elite having Bronze Weapons.
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)

Vallyhome can have the Library. This is a purely religious structure, stick it in our first and greatest holy site.
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
It's a good mix of spiritual, away from current power centers, and still with a reasonable population.

[] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of occupationally linked administration
I need more information about the current clan laws to make an informed decision on it, but this is my initial thought.

[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
I want stability and don't want to reduce our Mysticism via More Blackbirds. We also don't want more martial, as we're in the danger zone there.

[] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
No strong opinion here, but this seems worthwhile to rebuild trade with the nomad-dominated metal workers. Maybe. More discussion needed.
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

Expand Blackbirds costs mysticism, while enforce law gives stability.
 
[x] [Temple] Sacred Forest

[x] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)

[x] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

If we recruit Blackbirds, we will be over the Martial limit. That is bad and we should avoid that from happening.
 
Last edited:
[X] [Temple] Redshore
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
[X] [Diplo] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
 
[X] [Temple] Rainbow Trail
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
 
Last edited:
@Academia Nut
What's the difference between geographically linked and occupationally linked administration?
What's the current clan dissolution laws?
What's the current clan adoption rules?

This is all that we really know about the current clan system from this update. Was there any useful information from previous updates?
with the old laws about spinning off new clans usually mandating a certain degree of geographic isolation to make the process make sense and avoid a chief trying to artificially stuff a council.
 
Enforce law has a chance of giving stability. It also might take us over the centralization cap and cause even more issues.
 
[x] [Temple] Upper Valleyhome
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[x] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[x] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
Back
Top