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Paths of Civilization

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DragonParadox said:
I agree but the thing to remember about hegemonic rule as opposed to conquest is that it is fragile. Could the TH vassalize the lowlands? Maybe if everything went their way.

Could they vassalize the lowlands and afford to get into a slugging match with us using mostly vassal troops? I very much doubt it.
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Except they don't need to immediately come at us to cause us problems. Just look at the Xoh and you'll see they've at least been partially assimilated by the TH and the TS is little more than their attack dogs by this point.

Yeah, said vassals might not be enough to invade us, but eventually- it might be 6 turns it might be 20 the TH if they can hold onto their hegemony will essentially have assimilated the Lowlands, leaving them relatively bound to the TH even if they are far flung.

Any hegemony in the Lowlands longer than the extreme short-term definitely falls under the category of 'if we can't have it nobody can'.
 
McLuvin said:
Oh, so it's more a sphere of influence then?
That makes me feel somewhat better actually, I thought it was a full on border
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Yeah solid borders are actual borders and dashed are spheres of influence/punching. This is why the thread has been saying that they will have some severe difficulties actually striking the HK and even worse for us.

I figure they can at best hold this much.




Karugus has a point that they may be able to vassalize parts of the HK, but I figure such a windfall would be incredibly touchy and prone to !!sudden explosions!! unless they maintain that luck and can actually hold it for several turns. If they can do that they will basically force the Admin advances they need and then we have a Problem.



TheDanishLord said:
Do the nomads or anyone for that matter ride or is it all Chariots?
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McLuvin said:
As far as we know it's all chariots so far
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The Horsie breeding program hasn't made them large enough to ride yet. Be fun when it happens, depending on who comes up with it out of us, the TH, or the Nomads.
 
Have you guys considered diplomatic sanctions requesting sessation of hostilities if the TH start snowballing? We could put together a hell of a frightening-by-implications diplomatic party, heavy with Gift Salt and protected by large numbers of warriors bearing star metal.

That seems more the Ymaryn's style than attacking them.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Oh, I was wondering why we had chariots but no actual horse riders! Were horses not originally naturally large enough for riding then?
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Not really, there's a reason why the Classical era cavalry never really went on full out charges head on like we see in the later medieval periods, the horse took millennia to shape into the War stallions we saw in later warfare.
Guile said:
Have you guys considered diplomatic sanctions requesting sessation of hostilities if the TH start snowballing? We could put together a hell of a frightening-by-implications diplomatic party, heavy with Gift Salt and protected by large numbers of warriors bearing star metal.

That seems more the Ymaryn's style than attacking them.
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We aren't really actively doing trade missions every turn, and at this point in economic history nations tended to rely on agriculture for the economy more than the dyes, salt and other products we produce for major export, in essence, most economies were relatively self sufficient at this time, making economic warfare ineffective
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
Oh, I was wondering why we had chariots but no actual horse riders! Were horses not originally naturally large enough for riding then?
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Ehh *wiggles hand* for us no. Somewhere else? Maybe. Don't know all the specifics on that front.

We got ponies during Gwygoytha's time almost 900 years ago. It's gonna be awhile.


A pony in modern times is any horse less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) at the withers, while a Light Weight War Horse was historically greater than 12 hands but less than 15 and were used to pull chariots and the like. One of the biggest differences between a pony and a warhorse is temperament.

Also see a picture of a full grown modern horse and a modern full grown small pony.



Also to get true riding horses the saddle, the stirrup, and the horse collar need to be invented. We may be able to ride our current breeds of horse bareback, but there is no indication we have saddles yet.


E:
Guile said:
Have you guys considered diplomatic sanctions requesting sessation of hostilities if the TH start snowballing? We could put together a hell of a frightening-by-implications diplomatic party, heavy with Gift Salt and protected by large numbers of warriors bearing star metal.

That seems more the Ymaryn's style than attacking them.
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We could try that and it is our style. The issue is that the social idea of sanctions has not really been developed yet. Another is that any such sanction has to be backed by the threat of military force in this era, especially with a culture like the Thunder Horse and we have two difficulties with enforcing that. One is that we have difficulty projecting force the required distance and two our trait CA makes us seem weak, which does not help in the slightest.

I'd say that with a full Salt Gift escorted by a starmetal outfitted large contingent of warriors we have a low chance of succeeding.

E2: Our best and really only bet with our current traits is to wait for the TH to make the first move and then beat the everloving snot out of their attack force or, help the HK if they come calling.
 
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The downside of the trade mission was that we reassured the TH that they didn't need to unduly guard their backs from us. They could feel freer to wage war.

If we informed them that a nation too cruel in war might find itself our enemy too, our mere existence would act as a check. They couldn't draw warriors away from our side to fight the HK.

Yes, this means we'd be revealing ourselves and couldn't launch a sneak attack, but we can't do that ANYWAY.
 
Heres an idea for a megaprocjet that plays to our traits. Howabout looking to early china and build a great earthen wall to the north
 
pblur said:
Remember HK has been forting up for several generations, and bronze is only available for TH elites. It's not a sure thing.
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Oh no it is definitely not a sure thing but most of that paragraph applies to the possibility of the Thunder Horse winning sometime in the future past this coming conflict. If they do win at some point in the future, if we don't renew our agreement not to fight near us, then we will face many raids that increase in intensity to a full thrust. Also since the time I wrote that my opinion on the matter has swung even further towards the idea that the HK will weather the coming storm just fine, since I had some time to consider all the factors and collate all the strategic information in my head when I wrote my subsequent posts when responding to McLuvin.

Guile said:
The downside of the trade mission was that we reassured the TH that they didn't need to unduly guard their backs from us. They could feel freer to wage war.

If we informed them that a nation too cruel in war might find itself our enemy too, our mere existence would act as a check. They couldn't draw warriors away from our side to fight the HK.

Yes, this means we'd be revealing ourselves and couldn't launch a sneak attack, but we can't do that ANYWAY.
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Not much of one since everyone thinks we are wimps. It could work if we went full panoply on them but I don't know. Also our people don't really think that way required to give threats like that.
 
I have a feeling that, even though the TH have equipped their elites with bronze, the HK won't lose a lot of their settlements. The HK just went on a fortification spree after all...so while they might be forced into their settlements, it'll be incredibly difficult for the TH to claim anything after they take up the un-walled areas.

I wonder if we'll get a mid turn of the HK asking for our help...
 
BungieONI said:
Not much of one since everyone thinks we are wimps. It could work if we went full panoply on them but I don't know. Also our people don't really think that way required to give threats like that.
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What other options are there, actual fighting? Ignoring the war like always?

If diplomacy can work, we should give it the chance.
 
BungieONI said:
-An inability to reach all the way to the Thunder Horse cities to cause permanent damage
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This is exactly why I would consider supporting HK. They simply can't acheive hegemony over the lowlands in the next 300 years. TH could.

Edit: I missed some of your intermediate posts. I'll just say I'm skeptical about where you their admin limit. From what I can see, they probably have the most range flexibility in their admin, with low centralization and high regional autonomy. I think they could vassalize HK and absorb it within 200 years.
 
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Guile said:
What other options are there, actual fighting? Ignoring the war like always?

If diplomacy can work, we should give it the chance.
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Not what I mean. Really don't want to fight them if we can and getting them to stop is for the best, and if we can we should try for diplomacy first I agree.

The issue of doing what you suggest, as I see it is thus:
All we can do for diplo actions to other countries is send trade missions.

We can send our traders out and ask them not to fight near us, they've already done that. I figure this is the best we can expect of our traders.

What you are suggesting is possibly outside of the purview of the Ymaryn traders to demand. This is because they are not true diplomats, no one has those yet, and it may not occur to them to demand such sanctions.

On top of this difficulty, we have no means of actually enforcing any such sanction in a meaningful manner and our traits mean we are considered weak. Any success in this part would be a bluff.

I am willing and eager to try it but the things that need to happen are, the traders coming up with the idea > then the full salt gift plus starmetal escort convincing the TH to buy our bluff > then they need to not test our bluff. These factors coming together are what is needed for this to work, so I consider it a shot in the dark. If it does work and they do not test our bluff for a long time, we can build up to the point where it actually isn't a bluff at all and then enforce our sanction with some very carefully worded warnings carried on the tips of our armies iron spears in very large numbers, with potentially no fighting as they back off to our threat display.

Basically a run of luck is required for it to fully work out, so I am not going to bank on it working but I do want to make the attempt since the only cost is a Main action and the risk of pissing them off.
 
I wouldn't call it a bluff, really. It might not work, our trait might balance out the threat of star metal too much, but that's not the same as a bluff.

People consider us weak, but we are not weak. That they don't believe us a threat doesn't make our threat level a bluff.
 
Guile said:
I wouldn't call it a bluff, really. It might not work, our trait might balance out the threat of star metal too much, but that's not the same as a bluff.

People consider us weak, but we are not weak. That they don't believe us a threat doesn't make our threat level a bluff.
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True, the main issue outside of the trait, which I will agree has little bearing on it being a bluff or not, is one of distance. I sort of call it a bluff at least in a sense because we cannot readily enforce it since our reach is too short.

Like I've been saying, completely willing to try it but I don't figure it will work out as well as we want. I would be so happy if it did though.
 
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Andres110 said:
Huh. Philosophy literally means 'love of wisdom'.
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Yeah, LoW is a completely cast iron bullshit trait. Greeks invented it in the 6th century BC and estimates of our time period based on surrounding civs places the region at the start of the bronze age in 3300 BC. So we invented it about 2700 years ahead of schedule.

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