Next turn, perhaps we should do Support Subordinate? The overlimit Martial is something that's already causing us problems and it's not something we want to just sit on.

Good luck convincing people to do it.
I mean, that would be parting with shinies. We may not ever use that Martial and it may hurt us and Marches may need them more, but who cares?

You're vastly undervaluing wine as a commodity. It was one of the chief trade goods of the ancient world, and high quality wines were (and are) extremely valuable. It isn't valued as a booze either, really, wine is how people all over the world stored 'drinking water' for long trips. Skins and what it are useful, but he water goes bad and gets contaminated. Wine does not, and more importantly, it tastes good.

If I say the word 'wine,' what do you think of? Grapes, France, California? That's the other reason. Wine, especially good wine, is a mark of prestige and sophistication. The quality of the wine reflects the quality of the society.

No. It isn't 'just another booze' and it wouldn't have its own option if it was.

Yeah, but, well, we know boiling and sanitation.
We can sell it to barbarians who don't though. :V
 
Yeah, but, well, we know boiling and sanitation
This won't save your travel water, especially not on long trips. Boiling enough water for a thousand soldiers, or a trade caravan just isn't practical. And anyway, boiling doesn't get rid of random shit in the water, it just kills off pathogens. Wine is still a valuable commodity, one almost on the level of salt.

There is a reason wine and beer were substitutes for water all the way until the renaissance and a little beyond. They too knew that boiling water would sterilize it.
 
You're vastly undervaluing wine as a commodity. It was one of the chief trade goods of the ancient world, and high quality wines were (and are) extremely valuable. It isn't valued as a booze either, really, wine is how people all over the world stored 'drinking water' for long trips. Skins and what it are useful, but he water goes bad and gets contaminated. Wine does not, and more importantly, it tastes good.

If I say the word 'wine,' what do you think of? Grapes, France, California? That's the other reason. Wine, especially good wine, is a mark of prestige and sophistication. The quality of the wine reflects the quality of the society.

No. It isn't 'just another booze' and it wouldn't have its own option if it was.

It is, effectively, just another booze. We are already having more diplomacy than we know what to do with. We have other alcohols to stretch our freshwater supplies and the prestige is purely marketing. If things develop differently, beer might be the big rage, so it's not that great for prestige either.

It's nice to have, but not critical compared to other things we could be doing.

Nevermind that wine was more or less developed on accident because the juice of gathered berries fermented. Our people already know that grapes can be made into wine. Odds are it will develop on its own within a few generations. They don't need huge vineyards to have it developed. It's even better if they start it small so they can experiment with what works instead of us sinking resources into it and wasting most on wild flailing about before something usable emerges.
 
It is, effectively, just another booze. We are already having more diplomacy than we know what to do with.

Overflow is incredibly helpful. A vineyard gives us 2 diplomacy, on top of 1 diplomacy from our saltern. The extra 3 diplomacy overflow into art.

Megaproject costs us 1 art per turn. So we're down to 2 overflow into mysticism. Lover of philosophy costs us an additional 1 mysticism. Then secondary Study Stars add one mysticism back to us. So overall, we gets 2 added to Mysticism, which brings us to 9 mysticism.

This is not accounting for the fact that we might get diplomacy overflow from two secondary trade mission. We could get anywhere from 1 to 2 additional diplomacy. Which means we might get 11 mysticism, if we don't expand Blackbirds.
 
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It is, effectively, just another booze. We are already having more diplomacy than we know what to do with. We have other alcohols to stretch our freshwater supplies and the prestige is purely marketing. If things develop differently, beer might be the big rage, so it's not that great for prestige either.

It's nice to have, but not critical compared to other things we could be doing.

Nevermind that wine was more or less developed on accident because the juice of gathered berries fermented. Our people already know that grapes can be made into wine. Odds are it will develop on its own within a few generations. They don't need huge vineyards to have it developed. It's even better if they start it small so they can experiment with what works instead of us sinking resources into it and wasting most on wild flailing about before something usable emerges.
It's absolutely not.

WINE 101: Wine History

[For centuries wine was produced and enjoyed with little thought for and no true understanding of its underlying science, wine evolved through "spontaneous generation," as far as anyone knew. French chemist Louis Pasteur, among many discoveries relating to his germ theory of diseases, first proposed and proved, in 1857, that wine is made by microscopic organisms, yeasts. This led to the discovery and development of different yeast types and properties and ultimately to better hygiene, less spoilage, and greater efficiency in wine production.]

Wine lead to germ theory. Big Picture

Viticulture and also important steps in learning how to modern agriculture due to how involved a process it is in plant husbandry. Oenology itself is potentially important to chemistry. Not to mention the innovations and advancements required to properly do these things. I fully expect storage and agriculture to improve due to Vineyards.

more wine and science; Fermenting knowledge: the history of winemaking, science and yeast research
 
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Quick question guys, if the eastern thunder horse begin to decisively beat the highland kingdom are we going to intervene, because while I dislike the idea of getting involved in a war I also dislike the idea of being surrounded by the eastern thunder horse? Following on from that, can we intervene even if we want do, because we need a casus belli to do it, and if we can't is there another way we can support the HK?
 
Why do people think the marches will break off if we fall below 10 prestige? AN outright said that our current marches were not supported by prestige.
No you won't, as none of the colonies are supported by Prestige right now.
Prestige only supports the colonies that don't want to be with us, I believe. Our anti-nomad marches very much want us to be around.
 
Why do people think the marches will break off if we fall below 10 prestige? AN outright said that our current marches were not supported by prestige.

Prestige only supports the colonies that don't want to be with us, I believe. Our anti-nomad marches very much want us to be around.
That was in a conversation about adding third march, which would be supported by prestige.

Edit in response to your edit: our current marches aren't supported by prestige because we have 2 subordinate slots at 0 prestige. Any third subordinate state would use the slot generated by prestige.
 
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[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
It is, effectively, just another booze. We are already having more diplomacy than we know what to do with. We have other alcohols to stretch our freshwater supplies and the prestige is purely marketing. If things develop differently, beer might be the big rage, so it's not that great for prestige either
Again, it's not really just another booze.

At best we have beer, fruit liquores, and fermented milks. None of these can be added to water, stored long term, or produced in sufficient volume. Distillation isn't a thing yet.

Beer doesn't quite have the same qualities for travel use that wine does unless it is heavily hopped and barreled in a cool spot. It skunks, and actually goes bad. So it isn't really even a good trade good for a year long journey.

Not that beer is bad, it's nutritious, potable, and easy to make. It's also more of a beer porridge than anything else at this point.

As for diplomacy, it goddamn well overflows, so your point about having enough is, well, pointless. It overflows into art, which overflows into mysticism. Art that can be spent on proclaim glories or megaprojects and mysticism that is spent on megaprojects or anything at all science related. Keeping these at max makes us attractive trade prospects, and more importantly, helps us get into golden ages faster.

My whole point here, is that there is a very good reason we were given the option to set up vineyards. It is because it will be useful and play into the gardening aspects of our civ. AN has yet to give us a useless option, and I'm frankly a little baffled that some of you are dismissing it so offhandedly.

Edit:
It's absolutely not.

WINE 101: Wine History

[For centuries wine was produced and enjoyed with little thought for and no true understanding of its underlying science, wine evolved through "spontaneous generation," as far as anyone knew. French chemist Louis Pasteur, among many discoveries relating to his germ theory of diseases, first proposed and proved, in 1857, that wine is made by microscopic organisms, yeasts. This led to the discovery and development of different yeast types and properties and ultimately to better hygiene, less spoilage, and greater efficiency in wine production.]

Wine lead to germ theory. Big Picture

Viticulture and also important steps in learning how to modern agriculture due to how involved a process it is in plant husbandry. Oenology itself is potentially important to chemistry. Not to mention the innovations and advancements required to properly do these things. I fully expect storage and agriculture to improve due to Vineyards.

more wine and science; Fermenting knowledge: the history of winemaking, science and yeast research

So yes, I want the vineyards. They are also the first homegrown progression in our agriculture tech since terra preta.(black soil)
 
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That was in a conversation about adding third march, which would be supported by prestige.

Edit in response to your edit: our current marches aren't supported by prestige because we have 2 subordinate slots at 0 prestige. Any third subordinate state would use the slot generated by prestige.
There is now a third march slot just so you know
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
Why do people think the marches will break off if we fall below 10 prestige? AN outright said that our current marches were not supported by prestige.

Prestige only supports the colonies that don't want to be with us, I believe. Our anti-nomad marches very much want us to be around.

I think us going full WAAAGH onto nomads and then breaking into Iron while on the dawn of bronze age gave a us hell of a goodwill credit with them.
 
Uh...that's already listed in the summations. Buddhism and Shinto mainly got involved in politics on a per-temple/per-shrine level because of how they were structured. The religion didn't integrate itself into politics at such a level that the head of religion was a bigger political player than any king, and intentionally stirring shit at times because that improved their political power by weakening the kings

Now, obviously, temples who saw a winning formula tended to copy things, but it's much more restrained and easier to stopper this way.
*squints* huh, yeah. This is why shouldn't post while tired and drunk.
 
I wish we could join the March in WRAAAGHING against the Western Nomads.
Aren't they broken and scattered now?
The Metal Workers are freed and the Western Nomad tribes are mentioned as having been forced south and further west in the update, there's no more WAAAGHing for anyone, including the Marches
 
I think us going full WAAAGH onto nomads and then breaking into Iron while on the dawn of bronze age gave a us hell of a goodwill credit with them.
My speculation is that will mechanically mean that we get midturn options for integration instead of seccession if we break our subordinate state limit.
 
Aren't they broken and scattered now?
The Metal Workers are freed and the Western Nomad tribes are mentioned as having been forced south and further west in the update, there's no more WAAAGHing for anyone, including the Marches
Good, hopefully that should mitigate the effect integration will have on our traits. We need to avoid warfare if we can or we're going to start having issues with martial values.
 
We don't raid our enemies for women
Pretty sure that we do take wives from defeated tribes, otherwise where did all the Women from the dead zone go? They couldn't have all traveled with the fast raid force that escaped us.
I always thought they had been taken by the West Sheild young warriors to help populate the new March.
Edit: Blackbirded....
 
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