Analysis time

Diplomacy 12->13 [+1]

This Saltern thing is kickass, but so is long distance trade.

Economy 9->6

Geez, we spend it fast. And grow it just as fast.


Martial 15 {18} (over limit)->10 {12}

Safezone now.

Periphery States (2/2)
Stallion Tribes (March) - Eliminates raids from the north and mitigates raids from the east, can provide military advances and supports the Western Wall
Western Wall (March) -Elimates raids from the west, can provide military advances and supports the Stallion Tribes
*Attempts to resist urge for Build A Wall calls*
You know, people are going to be REALLY surprised when they realize our giant army is just half our dudes and the rest are on garrison duty to the north just to keep the nomads off our butt.

As much as nomadic groups infuriated the People, the king remembered the most ancient and sacred tales of hospitality and openness. Even if the newcomers were hostile, they had to offer to meet with them first, even if it might open them up to attack. Fortunately the chiefs on scene were at least of the opinion that they should not attack without the king's approval in this instance, and contact was made with these strangers.
Little bit touch and go there, sounds like there was a chance, if not a big one of chiefs taking initiative rather than wait a couple of weeks for a chariot messenger to get the orders relayed.

Also reinforcing again just how rare Cosmopolitan Acceptance is. Rome developed it eventually as it grew, as did China, but most cultures exposed to frequent war tended to develop some level of xenophobia, and big cultures tended to adopt it with a sense of smug superiority that they can and will beat all ass that threatens their hospitality.

Communication was initially difficult, as it turned out that they were so far away that they needed an interpreter who could speak a language that the People needed their own interpreter for. Still, a lack of general hostility was soon established for both sides, and then the trade goods were brought out.
Probably not helped by having killed every adult male nomad within a thousand miles. :p
I realized the trade tongues are usually the Nomad languages, since they travel the furthest and most likely to have commonalities across a huge area.

While we killed everything in the area, trade is probably a little bit dampened.
It became apparent to both sides relatively quickly that they were both holding back just how much good stuff they had, and they both knew it, and knew that the other side knew it, mostly from the way they were willing to escalate the trade game of one-up-man-ship coyly but readily. The newcomers were however somewhat surprised by the way that the traders of the People were relatively uninterested in salt - not that they were entirely interested, just that when these traders started setting out small bags of salt they got a far lower response than they clearly expected. However, as they started to escalate, it became clear that while they understood the value of salt they also knew that most outsiders valued it far more than they did.
It probably goes something like:
-Travelers put a small bag of salt on the table,
-Ymaryn shrug, take out bigger bags of salt and put it on the table.
-Travelers put bigger bags out too. Everyone gives a sheepish grin.
-Ymaryn put out fancy red shirts and copper doodads. Serious trade time rather than the trader equivalent of showing your huge stacks of bling off.

Since we both have abundant salt, negotiations are relatively easy, we can establish an exchange rate based on salt and relative valuation. Probably offer resupply of provisions for cheap too.

Thus conversation roundabout came to where these traders had come from, and while the translation issues obviously got in the way, their description was roughly "the dry lands upon north shore of the salty water north of the great mountains", an area that the People hadn't even heard of in myth from any of the peoples they traded with. These people were from an incredibly long way away, the path for them opened up by the incredible destruction wrought in the fight between the people and the tribes who had once been their neighbours. The path would probably close quickly enough, but for the time being there was a tenuous path to a strange world far away.

+1 Diplomacy
Travelers from a distant land! Hail!

Man I wonder if they're alarmed by coming across the odd skull littered along the way.
Doesn't seem to have anything particularly unique though.
Meanwhile, within the People's territory large numbers of young men were told that they could help settle new territory where they would be the progenitors of new clans and where they would be able to fight against the hated enemy of their fathers and grandfathers, all while the within the territory of the People they were checking over the terrain for anything of interest.
Some odd language here, but we got the hotheads out there to cool their heads, and probably pick up spare nomad women left behind after the slaughters to balance out the issues of assimilating them into the Stallion Tribes.

While for the most part the survey wasn't focused enough to find anything in particular, a new site where a saltern could be easily established was found in Southshore and another band of red stone that could produce iron was found in Redhills, close enough to a major settlement that a new settlement wouldn't need to be founded in order to support a mine.
Survey pays out pretty good too.
We confirmed that Redhill is a haematite hill, though in retrospect the titular hill itself probably has too high silica content to make a good ore untill we get some water hammers to break it up and separate the particles via sieving.
Pity the saltern site is kind of exposed though. Need more walls/towers or the neighbors will want to rob it. Or copy it.
Build Iron Mine - A location with a viable deposit of ore has been found and a new mine can be constructed in Redhills.
*S: -3 Econ, -1 Stability, Payout of Econ and Martial next turn
*M: -3 Econ, -1 Stability, Payout of Econ and Martial
Hmm, we have no idea what the payout is yet. Except it's going to overflow our Martial again. And generate Mysticism. And generate Art.

The last mine gave us +12 Econ +6 Martial at the end, so...we're probably going to see some interesting effects alright. Overflows everywhere, and we need to dump a chunk of that into the provinces.
I suspect we might be converting to currency soon, the Economy system is reaching its limits as we gain the capability to spend to 1 Econ from 12 Econ using Policy in 1 turn .

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection, and with the ability to more easily work stone the walls grow ever higher (Redhills and Blackmouth heavily walled; Redshore, Northshore, and Stonepen capitals walled; Northshore and Stonepen partially walled elsewhere)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -2 Econ, major walls
Walls have actually gotten MORE expensive now. We can build true great walls.

Also our wall distribution is pretty crap.
Integrate March - Better communications and administration means that the Stallion Tribes can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a March to a province
*M: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating March
Our new March can't be integrated yet. Need More Roads.

[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Hathatyn, Xohyssiri, Thunder Horse, Eastern Nomads, Into the Wild (Eastern Sea), Into the Wild
Whole bunch of people to say hi to, but we don't have a lot of impetus to do so.
[] War Mission
-Target Options: Western Nomads, Eastern Nomads
Heh. Probably unwise, but that's ONE way to keep venting the Martial overflow!
 
[X] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice


Can our March help the Metal Workers ? When the son of the nomad hero dies, there could be a crisis and the Metal Workers could throw the nomads out.
 
Except they're also passively catching up. I'm not sure that our rate of nonaggressive progress outstrips their progress without our impetus, and if that's the case then we need to move fast. That being said, getting default walls will be huge and I'm willing to wait until we have default walls or until someone else gets an all bronze elite unit, in which case I will push hard for expansion while we still can.
Overall if we just keep pooping out giant walls their passive growth shouldn't be a problem, the sheer abundance of iron means much higher baseline innovation...provided we don't trigger them to innovate fast because we're ahead.

Right now they're all building up to the next Lowland Clusterfuck, we can watch and sharpen our skills
The iron furnaces are well above, actually. Only need 900 o​C. Salt glaze isn't melted salt, its a reaction between the salt and (I think) either the silicates or the metals in the clay. The process sounds pretty polluting though. It died out in the late 1800's because of the resulting air pollution.
Well, it does vent hydrochloric acid...

But still, salt will stay valuable.
I was planning to use the aphasia as a launching spot for someone to come up with codes for battle leading to the flag code for battle.
The thing here is that you don't the normal language codes for obfuscating information(which don't arise until a unified regional language) and signaling codes(which arise from limited bandwidth comm channels) are completely different.

You want that, either build a shitload of towers or build a shitload of boat.
 
[X] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice


Can our March help the Metal Workers ? When the son of the nomad hero dies, there could be a crisis and the Metal Workers could throw the nomads out.
We might get a mid turn for it.

It's just that West Wall was just born, it's vulnerable and still needs time to "set" as part of our Spiky Koopa Shell in the North. Additionally the distance is kinda nuts. See this map I made of the recent changes.

@veekie what do you think the chances are of us smoothing relations with the Thunder Horse and keeping them calm and not raiding in our direction for a few turns via trade routes and salt gifts?

We could route through Xohyr and perhaps make them less inclined to attack us. This would of course give us some breathing room to expand east.

E: I know I sorta already asked this, but even a military culture that isn't nomadic should see value in shinnies and accepting willing trade.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 22, 2017 at 4:12 AM, finished with 39057 posts and 45 votes.
 
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If we can expand and take the Thunder Speaker's city we can then make a dam upon the river that flows to Xoh basically forcing the Xoh to either ally with us or stay neutral if they do not want to get washed away or face drought.
 
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If we can expand and take the Thunder Speaker's city we can then make a dam upon the river that flows to Xoh basically forcing the Xoh to either ally with us or stay neutral if they do not want to get washed away or face drought.
Nope. Dams don't work that way.

The thread has gone over this a lot but all a Dam does is regulate the flow. It can't stop it at all, just make the flooding more manageable and regular.

Or we could remember that we aren't a society of super-villains.
This too.
 
If we go over the martial limit we can probably just offload some into the marches.
Yeah a secondary Support Subordinate would be the ticket there.

We could also go for Prestige and get to 10+ and get the NE March going again. But I think we can ride one turn at red Martial. We are kinda going to have to. But it's looking like we will be able to finish it all in one go next turn so we have the turn after to recover from our evolution and use a Support action.
 
[X] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice

Would kinda prefer to Study Metal this turn, but eh, good enough.

Wonder if we could melt down the strange copper we looted off nomads, and plate our iron weapons?

Bronze plated iron weapons would be cool. Prevent rust, bronze properties, while the majority of the mass comes from common iron.
 
[X] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice

Would kinda prefer to Study Metal this turn, but eh, good enough.

Wonder if we could melt down the strange copper we looted off nomads, and plate our iron weapons?

Bronze plated iron weapons would be cool. Prevent rust, bronze properties, while the majority of the mass comes from common iron.
Not bronze. The "Eastern Copper" of the Thunder Horse is brass.

It's the wrong color in the update that introduces it for it to be bronze.

Besides that though I don't think such plating attempts would go well in a chemical sense. I could be wrong about this though.
 
@Academia Nut
Hmm, is it possible for the ST March to expand into the NE March we planned? This will help reduce some overhead in terms of sub states.

Or heck, merge ST and NW March.
 
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Hmm, is it possible for the ST March to expand into the NE March we planned? This will help reduce some overhead in terms of sub states.

Or heck, merge ST and NW March.
Now that is possible. Not sure how much the ST has been expanding, that's something we need to ask AN about.

Now then about your casting iron weapons with bronze post, I apologize for getting on you about brass. I realized after a moment that you could have meant that <The Nomads have a strange copper = brass, and we could plate our weapons with it> and then you moved onto <Hey, we could develop bronze ourselves or somehow obtain it and coat our weapons in it>. So sorry if I confused what you meant.
 
Not bronze. The "Eastern Copper" of the Thunder Horse is brass.

It's the wrong color in the update that introduces it for it to be bronze.

Besides that though I don't think such plating attempts would go well in a chemical sense. I could be wrong about this though.

Some of the Nomads weapons were Bronze I think, as mentioned by MW.

Now that is possible. Not sure how much the ST has been expanding, that's something we need to ask AN about.

Now then about your casting iron weapons with bronze post, I apologize for getting on you about brass. I realized after a moment that you could have meant that <The Nomads have a strange copper = brass, and we could plate our weapons with it> and then you moved onto <Hey, we could develop bronze ourselves or somehow obtain it and coat our weapons in it>. So sorry if I confused what you meant.

Ah. I just thought we could melt the nomad weapons we looted and coat our weapons with it.
Not entirely sure it can be done, but possible I think? Esp if we mold it instead?

I know for a fact that we have brass/bronze coated steel IRL (specialty material used in tires). Just double plate and heat treat.
But not sure if we can get that tech. We need electric to plate I think.
 
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Other than that though to the thread in general I say next project turn turn should be either of these two (there are certainly more varitations):

State actions
Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights){Fulfills it's individual Challenge requirement}
Secondary Study Health
Secondary Study Health x2 (-1 Econ, improved odds of success/do remember we are tapped out on the Anti-Disease Tree of this tech branch){With the above Tailings this will finish another of the Challenge requirements}

We are going to be in the area of 7 to 13 Econ from 1 Econ because of the Iron Payout. The total on the mine in the last few turns was (-4 Econ + 8 Econ on the midturn and +2 Martial + 0 on the next project turn+ 4 Econ and Martial on the mid turn), we can probably expect since we got Iron picks recently that the +0 Project turn will not be around. The Payout is probably going to be smaller but it's going to be offset some by the fact that it was cheaper to set up at only -3 Econ this time around. Something like (-3 Econ + 5 to 8 Econ and +2 Martial on the midturn + 4 Econ and Martial on the next Project turn) should be reasonable. So at least +6 Econ from the mine by this project turn so we are working with 7 Econ.

Totaling up if we hit the low end and only have 7 Econ these actions will take us down to 5 Econ, 1 Mysticism, and 0 Stability for the Provinces.

Province actions
Secondary More Boats (Southshore or Redshore) (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
Secondary Watch Towers (Whichever of Southshore or Redshore did not build boats) (-1 Econ, some watchtowers)
Secondary Study Stars (Valleyhome) (+1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights)
Main Expand Economy (The Law) (+4 Econ)

After these actions we are at 6(+1) Econ, 13 [+1](+1) Diplo, 2 Mysticism, and 0 Stability.

So that's one thing we could do.

Another is.

State actions
Main Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights){Fulfills it's individual Challenge requirement}
Secondary Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Grand Sacrifice x2 (-3 Econ, +2 Stability, reduction of social stratification)

Again at least +6 Econ counting initial startup cost from the mine by this project turn. So 7 Econ to spend. -4 Econ takes us to 3 Econ, 0 Mysticism, and 2 Stability for the Provinces.

Province actions
Secondary Watch Towers (Whichever did not build them last turn of Southshore or Redshore) (-1 Econ, some watchtowers)
Secondary Expand Holy Site (Redhill) (-1 Econ, +1 Mysticism)
Secondary Study Stars (Valleyhome) (+1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights)
Main Expand Economy (The Law) (+4 Econ)

Takes us to 5 Econ, 2 Mysticsim, and 2 Stability.

The second one is slightly more reliant on the Provinces knowing what we need. With the first we only need a single Expand Holy Site or Study Stars in order for us to be able to complete the Challenge.

Some of the Nomads weapons were Bronze I think, as mentioned by MW.



Ah. I just thought we could melt the nomad weapons we looted and coat our weapons with it.
Not entirely sure it can be done, but possible I think? Esp if we mold it instead?
They are very, very different metals in ductility, hardness, and tensile strength as well as Young's Modulus and other stress factors. They will probably not bond well together and if you coat an iron blade in bronze I would expect there to be a massive stress and fracture concentration point all along the interface where the bronze and iron meet. Your entire blade might just snap in half after such a procedure and I would expect the bronze to flake away in large chunks. When you heat iron you can shift it's properties and weaken it severely, on top of any chemical weirdness.
(Source: I'm a Senior Engineering student who had a good Materials professor)


Amazing that this quest doesn't have a Tvtropes page yet. :V
Someone should make one.

The first entry would be Berserk Button: F-ing Nomads! And Taxes.
 
They are very, very different metals in ductility, hardness, and tensile strength as well as Young's Modulus and other stress factors. They will probably not bond well together and if you coat an iron blade in bronze I would expect there to be a massive stress and fracture concentration point all along the interface where the bronze and iron meet. Your entire blade might just snap in half after such a procedure and I would expect the bronze to flake away in large chunks. When you heat iron you can shift it's properties and weaken it severely, on top of any chemical weirdness.
(Source: I'm a Senior Engineering student who had a good Materials professor)

Well, I'm in an industry that uses bronze plated steel and brass plated steel.
Granted, I'm not sure what are the effects if used violently, but they appear to do fine with a lot of repeated flexing.
Note that they are thin plating on somewhat fine wires. IDK what happens if you scale up in thickness.
They're used in the tire belt, and tire rim.
 
Well, I'm in an industry that uses bronze plated steel and brass plated steel.
Granted, I'm not sure what are the effects if used violently, but they appear to do fine with a lot of repeated flexing.
Note that they are thin plating on somewhat fine wires. IDK what happens if you scale up in thickness.
They're used in the tire belt, and tire rim.
Do you use electroplating to plate your steel?

What kinds of steel do you use?

We are mostly working with very impure iron that is very brittle, but still better than stone and copper in hardness and ability to retain an edge and resist strikes when in large and heavy plates.

The process you described where you would have a melted bronze coating applied to a iron blade sounds to me like it would be quite thick and unevenly distributed due to the materials and processes the Ymaryn have on hand. It could well work but it seems really sketchy.
 
Yeah a secondary Support Subordinate would be the ticket there.

We could also go for Prestige and get to 10+ and get the NE March going again. But I think we can ride one turn at red Martial. We are kinda going to have to. But it's looking like we will be able to finish it all in one go next turn so we have the turn after to recover from our evolution and use a Support action.

I want this NE march, even if we are getting quite militarized, and it worries me.

This said, I want us to be at at least 12 prestige first, since we have seen how fast it is possible to lose 2/3 prestige points, and to be above sustainable limit on marches would be Bad in my opinion.
 
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