maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Bloody hell redundant again!
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Hell
@drake_azathoth My apology. I am wrong. I think?
Panic set in, because I was freaked out by the appearances of two nomad heroes, not based on any rational analysis.
Panic set in, because I was freaked out by the appearances of two nomad heroes, not based on any rational analysis.
No, I just cleaned it up and removed some of my more rambling pedantry.
It's difficult to talk about absurdly broad topics like weaponry across hundreds of cultures and thousands of years without exaggerating wildly or strawmanning, but I do largely stand by the point that the historical role of swords in warfare is often vastly overstated. They tend to be a backup or privileged civilian weapon, not a weapon employed by the professional military.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well at least if they try to set up a dynasty and continue the trend it's doomed to failure because Nomads are not something you can empire build with even remotely easily. And if you succeed you stop being flexible Nomads and your new solidity means we can break you.
Plus when the Poppa Khan dies, since he has better admin most likely what with pulling back and building up his logistics and forces before trying again, the Kid Khan is going to face some pretty severe admin issues. This will be a detriment to his invasion because admin-ing a bunch a boyz is tough stuff. Means if his pops dies he has a good chance of attacking us before he really should, just to burn off dudes and fix probable stability issues. Course this speculation is only relevant for after this coming wave of attacks driven by Pops and Kid together, and if Kid is still alive after this attack.
...I was very glad to hear we did okay this turn. United nomads with TWO martial heroes was just absurd.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What I really want to see is another Nomad Hero spawn, but this one has a counter Waaagh! of his/her own and has a bone to pick with the two Khan's we are currently dealing with.
That way we can sit on our walls and watch the bloodbath and fireworks of two mutually hostile Waaaghs killing each other.
I mean if they are gonna be generating heroes this much why not have one spawn that has a grudge against the Pops Khan who just got done subjugating a whole bunch of tribes violently?
And that's before we build aqueducts. We've got a lot of vertical space in our civ yet.
Building aqueducts is expensive.
With copper, yeah.
We just tech'd to iron, and I know there's a plan around for inventing cement.
Motoko
Herald of Iron to The People
- Location
- Canada, ontario
Someone fish that out of the pile! Thats the next project due to be done along the way.
We have all the tools needed to discover basic mortar, the thing is building big stuff to get a breakthrough roll. So Walls and Towers to generate the construction innovation rolls + Survey(we need to find limestone for starters).
Alternatively, the Dam MAY force an innovation there. Much chancier and more expensive of course. If we don't have limestone it's entirely possible we just go with close fitted stone without mortar using clay for sealant, since iron tools allows for the alternative solution of cutting stone blocks so precisely they can stay together without any gap at all.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I'd say that the Dam is less chancey but still more expensive.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
I can't wait until we can get out of panic mode and start being able to foucus on our own projects like the library or more aqueducts.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Megaproject: Dam -> Library -> PttS
Aqueduct: Redcoast -> Stonepen -> ST? Northshore?
I elaborated further. There's more ways to make a Dam than to use Mortar.
What you need here:
-Materials
-- Limestone. Without this, no mortar beyond using mud as glue. While you can obtain small amounts from shells as a substitute, it won't be usable in construction relevant quantities
--The filler material - Relatively easier, since a variety of materials work, including sand.
-Necessity
--When building for strength, water resistance or height. Walls, Towers, Dams all have need for it, so people will try to find it.
But without limestone we cannot discover it.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Actually how would aqueducts work for coastal cities, will it be the same as valleyhome or would it force the Ymaryn to develop more coastal engineering?
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
replace dam with walls
Notteboy: Probably the same except that if the city is close enough to the shore our approach to the runoff water will need to be different, which might lead to coastal engineering in order to establish an artificial wetland as a filtration system.
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Technically 3/4/6 actions at 2 econ per action, and even if they only give +4 econ expansion slots, i still maintain that filling econ slots (that is, gaining population) is good for more than just the econ gain. An inferior action to expand econ that didn't give econ but took up an econ slot would still be a net benefit, because its increasing our narrative scale, which matters. Also, of course, the big benefit of aqueducts is probably the "true city" bonus, which is probably really nice...though also likely the kind of thing that gets less nice the more of them there are; i'm expecting diplo bonuses based on nearby civs without a competing true city at the least, as people flock to trade at the biggest conflux around.
I wonder how close we are on that front, actually...
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
k, i don't disagree & this is not what i'm arguing about
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
To throw my own iron in @Motoko I figure that we need to advance down the Pottery line of tech.
Finding glass and or concrete is actually likely because they have similar ingredients but different formation processes. Glass and or mortar would probably come first. The difference between a mortar and a concrete is the size of the aggregate grains. Finely ground grain lime stone/quicklime + sand + water = varieties of lime mortar and rough ground sand and gravel + cement/lime mortar + water = concrete. The cement formation will involve heating in kilns so that is where the connection to glass is. The formation of mortar also involves heating, because you need quicklime and can then get lime putty or dry powder.
So the actions we can actually take that could advance it are:
Main Art Patronage, this is mostly pottery so this has a direct chance of finding something related.
Main Snail Expansion. This is a much smaller chance to find something concrete, and is only tangentially connected to the process.
Survey Lands will possibly find limestone, or apparently naturally formed cement can be found.
Build Watch Towers and Build Walls. These are smaller drivers to advance but they still provide a place for innovation if the right pieces are in the right place. They improve in effectiveness if used in the north where the Nomads are able to tear them down now, sort of. It'd be far more likely to develop better building techniques first. But crazy people experimenting happens. And if we couple these actions with either of Snails or Art Patornage that influences the particular innovation.
Build Aqueducts is another effective action. That one is a big driver for finding a better stone and method of building. Again it is more likely to develop better construction techniques before concrete, but for the same reasons as watchtowers and walls it can be linked to the Art Patronage and Snails.
Build Dam is the biggest driver for stone building innovation, and the one I'd most expect to see a direct, spontaneous, innovation into mortar. From mortar it is basically a lucky accident to get concrete if I understand it correctly.
So if we want to go full hog for it do a Main Art Patronage and a Main Dam would do it.
I'm kinda tired right now so I'm going to take a nap and then do further research. Sorry if any of this was garbled. Anyhoo we have all the ingredients, mostly, since we can substitute shells but we really do need limestone. And with our kiln usage we are going to stumble onto the process soon. Funnily enough the Xoh are not in a good position to develop it, not likely having access to limestone unless the whole Lowlands was under an ocean at one point. I may be mistaken there but *shrug*
Finding glass and or concrete is actually likely because they have similar ingredients but different formation processes. Glass and or mortar would probably come first. The difference between a mortar and a concrete is the size of the aggregate grains. Finely ground grain lime stone/quicklime + sand + water = varieties of lime mortar and rough ground sand and gravel + cement/lime mortar + water = concrete. The cement formation will involve heating in kilns so that is where the connection to glass is. The formation of mortar also involves heating, because you need quicklime and can then get lime putty or dry powder.
So the actions we can actually take that could advance it are:
Main Art Patronage, this is mostly pottery so this has a direct chance of finding something related.
Main Snail Expansion. This is a much smaller chance to find something concrete, and is only tangentially connected to the process.
Survey Lands will possibly find limestone, or apparently naturally formed cement can be found.
Build Watch Towers and Build Walls. These are smaller drivers to advance but they still provide a place for innovation if the right pieces are in the right place. They improve in effectiveness if used in the north where the Nomads are able to tear them down now, sort of. It'd be far more likely to develop better building techniques first. But crazy people experimenting happens. And if we couple these actions with either of Snails or Art Patornage that influences the particular innovation.
Build Aqueducts is another effective action. That one is a big driver for finding a better stone and method of building. Again it is more likely to develop better construction techniques before concrete, but for the same reasons as watchtowers and walls it can be linked to the Art Patronage and Snails.
Build Dam is the biggest driver for stone building innovation, and the one I'd most expect to see a direct, spontaneous, innovation into mortar. From mortar it is basically a lucky accident to get concrete if I understand it correctly.
So if we want to go full hog for it do a Main Art Patronage and a Main Dam would do it.
I'm kinda tired right now so I'm going to take a nap and then do further research. Sorry if any of this was garbled. Anyhoo we have all the ingredients, mostly, since we can substitute shells but we really do need limestone. And with our kiln usage we are going to stumble onto the process soon. Funnily enough the Xoh are not in a good position to develop it, not likely having access to limestone unless the whole Lowlands was under an ocean at one point. I may be mistaken there but *shrug*
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Not that different. You find a nearby river and build a limited channel to draw water from it.
The reason there is that walls/towers generate multiple rolls, so thats the route to go for incremental progress. It won't get you concrete in one shot but it would develop
Dam gives you one big roll, but if you don't have the ingredients(Kiln, Limestone, suitable filler), you'd simply develop something else as the solution entirely, and a large investment. People have built dams with no more complex mortar than mud
That's one thing I definitely missed. Still need the limestone though. If we have limestone available via Survey, then yes, a Main Art Patronage would probably discover something. As would Study Metal(Limestone makes smelting iron from the ore that much easier).
Yep.
Basic steps to Mortar now, revised:
1) Obtain Limestone. We will know it as the "white stone", "flowing stone" and the bitter water. Shells and corals do not provide usable quantities for production, but potentially can be substituted for limestone in stage 2 and 3 experiments with luck, but at low probability, because we mostly burn our waste shell and bone along with our garbage to make Black Soil.
-This is a necessary prerequisite
-This is unlikely to be traded for. Nobody would trade it since it's rock and bulky.
-This can only be found by Survey. It can be discovered without knowledge of it's utility in metal extraction or mortar production, as limestone is an attractive construction material.
2) Learn that Limestone transforms to lime when under dry heat
-This is an optional prerequisite, it can be discovered by accident during the smelting of ore, manufacture of bricks or baking of pottery.
-This can be Traded for potentially. The Xohyssiri may have the technology, as might any metalworking faction.
-This can be obtained through Art Patronage, if you have limestone, as limestone gets experimented on for as glazing materials.
-This can be obtained through Study Metal, if you have limestone, as limestone gets experimented on as a potential metal ore(due to being colored, besides, it's technically calcium ore
).-This has a low chance of being obtained through the study of mine tailings, as using limestone based pits will cause a vigorous and alarming reaction to prompt further research
3) Learn that Lime reacts with other materials to form cement/concrete.
-This is an optional prerequisite, it can be discovered by accident during the same time as Step 2.
-This is unlikely to be traded for as the reaction of lime will not be something that foreigners will be seeing. However a spy mission is not impossible with more Blackbirds.
-This can be obtained through any major construction project once Lime is discovered. The bigger the project, the more likely. Projects involving water or tall constructions have a boosted rate:
--Main/Double Main Walls
--Main/Double Main Towers
--Main/Double Main Trails
--Main/Double Main Snails
--Dam
--Aqueduct
--Saltern
-This can be obtained through Art Patronage via glazing experiments.
-This can be obtained through Study Metal via smelting experiments.
As such, you can see only the initial step is invariable. You need the stone to do anything else. But once you have it, it's merely a matter of time to notice.
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