Their slave structure is very much... it's more internally conceptualized as a form of indentured servitude, someone paying back a debt owed to someone else or society. That debt can be 'was on the wrong side of a war', and the debt can be hereditary, and it can even be conceived of as a moral failing to have, but it is very much conceptualized as something that can be worked off.

Vassalage is also very much seen of as a familial relationship, typically reinforced with actual ties of marriage and adoption and the like. So loyalty is owed to the king in a similar way that loyalty is owed from child to parent. It's not Confucian level yet, but familial loyalty is very much how they work, and while they're not quite an elective or seniority based system, succession isn't necessarily directly from father to son if there is an older and more successful male relative and the immediate primogenic heir is young and untested.

It's not the most stable system, but they mostly skip over the worst heirs.
I'd meant more whether they call them "Slaves" or "indentured servants" or "half-servants"/"half-men" or something else inspired by our "half-exiles", and if they had some term for their vassals, or if like our march technically being a province, they're even officially recognized as anything other than another settlement that just happens to be far away and thus functions differently in practice...But i certainly wont say no to more worldbuilding info, so thanks :)


I guess that was in part because they have not sent us a trade mission for a long time, or at all, and thus their nega-SV was expecting so see primitive mountain farmers and got most populous state in the region with some metal tools and written law in copper age, thus freaking out on mid-mission choice.
AN's actually gone into that more since then (at least once due to my rampant asking of questions about the setting :p):

Forgot this earlier, but the idea of a king consulting a carved stone and deciding to tell a delegation to screw off sounds like insanely powerful magic to them, and if you have spread it across all your land, what other grand workings might the People have woven?



None of your neighbours have gone through an extended crisis like this yet, although they have also gone through extended periods of low stability requiring desperate reworkings, or outright civilization fracture.

"Those dicks stopped trading with us, what is this?"

"Well, they'll still trade with anyone who comes to them, but they don't want to be involved in any war between you and the Thunder Horse so they're keeping their own traders home. Also, they seem preoccupied with something."

*one lopsided war turn later*

"Okay, now that we've punched the Dick Priests and Blunder Horse in, we're going to send a midterm expedition to the Tree Weirdos and get them to start trading with us again and keep out the Thunder Horse."

*one crit fail later*

"The king consulted a magic stone and said 'Fuck you, stone says no'. They seem to have these things everywhere."

"Fucking bullshit, these guys pulled off another grand ritual!"

While they use writing for some accounting work, the sort of writing you would put into stone would be only for the most sacred ideas. For the king himself to claim to be bound by something written in stone would imply incredible spiritual potency, and thus magic.



Among other things.
 
I'm saying it's a clear case of an UPGRADE, not a sidegrade. Outright superior, even if it has it's own troubles.

Mainly? Terror effect. It would buy us a fair stretch of not being fucked with if we do get the casus belli, such that we don't have to deal with issues like them seeking to dictate our trade relations or raiding us. It's the sort of thing that leaves a mark, especially if it requires clear and definite provocation.
But it would cost six main actions and six kicks to do so. Assuming that we used grand sacrifices to recover our stability hit, we'd have to spend three more main actions and nine economy. To recover the economy would require another five main actions.

Or in other words, it would take us fourteen main actions to recover back to where we were before we pressed the button. I don't think that destroying one neighbor and empowering the others would be worth the sheer opportunity costs.
 
Their slave structure is very much... it's more internally conceptualized as a form of indentured servitude, someone paying back a debt owed to someone else or society. That debt can be 'was on the wrong side of a war', and the debt can be hereditary, and it can even be conceived of as a moral failing to have, but it is very much conceptualized as something that can be worked off.

Vassalage is also very much seen of as a familial relationship, typically reinforced with actual ties of marriage and adoption and the like. So loyalty is owed to the king in a similar way that loyalty is owed from child to parent. It's not Confucian level yet, but familial loyalty is very much how they work, and while they're not quite an elective or seniority based system, succession isn't necessarily directly from father to son if there is an older and more successful male relative and the immediate primogenic heir is young and untested.

It's not the most stable system, but they mostly skip over the worst heirs.

well I can see the fracture points from here. family loyalty + Nobel houses = treacherous inter house politics. Even when it doesn't boil over due to a secession crisis I doubt anyone sees a problem with screwing over another house for the good of their family.
 
But then we just absorbed the remnants?
If we are already in settlements and stabilizing the place, why would we leave?

In any case, we get better return and advances if we turn our attention to coastal and hilly areas instead of poor plain soil.
Too far away.

Edit: Also, this was intended more as a poetically appropriate tale than an actual suggestion.
 
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[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
Eh, fair enough. I just wrote about the DP because I know more about them while the Highlanders are still a bit of a mystery to me. I could have written about the nomads, I suppose, but I think someone else already did an omake about doing a Super War Mission against the nomads.




Sorry, it's like 1am here. What's the correct term I should have used?

Actually, no. Nevermind. I declare that in this omake-verse the Ymmir have enough bullshit to summon as many main actions as needed! By the end of the game, the world will be covered in trees!

... I'll fix it in the morning.
I figure that writing non-canon facts about people just makes it more likely that they'll become true.

I think it's actually a diplomacy mission. We have decent odds of getting diplo back, especially considering the nature.
I agree ish. It's theoretically a diplomatic mission but also a mysticism one so... who knows.
 
It can happen, but it takes a special kind of asshole to inspire it. Dead Priests have come closest, and they realized that they were digging a hole and have reined things waaaaaaay back in recent generations (mostly due to a lack of ability though).
So ironically internal woes(which I think we now recognize to be the problem with Periphery states forming?) saved them from triggering that. Though every known civilization was beating their ass at some point.
Yeah, something like that if you go overboard it would carry on into other stuff.
Ah cool.

Though since we don't know what actions megaprojects will spawn, makes it likely to just waste slots sometimes.
Some guesses:
-Gardens - Unlock Build Aqueduct?
-Saltern - Unlock Build Salt pool?
Their slave structure is very much... it's more internally conceptualized as a form of indentured servitude, someone paying back a debt owed to someone else or society. That debt can be 'was on the wrong side of a war', and the debt can be hereditary, and it can even be conceived of as a moral failing to have, but it is very much conceptualized as something that can be worked off.
Hmm, that's basically half-exiles, with the crime being debt they're working off. So a capitalist + Eye for an Eye version of ours. But without the Harmony and Protective Justice elements to make it corrective sentences and outright encouraging allowing debt to compound.
Vassalage is also very much seen of as a familial relationship, typically reinforced with actual ties of marriage and adoption and the like. So loyalty is owed to the king in a similar way that loyalty is owed from child to parent. It's not Confucian level yet, but familial loyalty is very much how they work, and while they're not quite an elective or seniority based system, succession isn't necessarily directly from father to son if there is an older and more successful male relative and the immediate primogenic heir is young and untested.

It's not the most stable system, but they mostly skip over the worst heirs.
That, as we've seen here encourages assassinations of close family for succession, particularly when heirs are yet to come of age. It's actually a pretty nice system feudally speaking, but you can taste the youth of the system, in that it has plenty of exploit room that clearly hadn't been stress tested yet.

Whereas ours has the taste of an elderly political system, where we've closed most of the easy loophole to gaining authority illegitimately, but instead have entrenched power structures.
That one was kicked off by straight up murder, it was going to be a mess no matter what.
Ooo, wrong brother inherited and then Cain and Abel resulted?
But it would cost six main actions and six kicks to do so. Assuming that we used grand sacrifices to recover our stability hit, we'd have to spend three more main actions and nine economy. To recover the economy would require another five main actions.

Or in other words, it would take us fourteen main actions to recover back to where we were before we pressed the button. I don't think that destroying one neighbor and empowering the others would be worth the sheer opportunity costs.
Just saying, if anyone provokes us to that degree then yes. That said, in the scenario of "triggered all our core beliefs at once", I suspect we'd GAIN Stability immediately for declaring war on them. And Greater Good proc odds will go up as well.

It's mostly theoretical, since few of our neighbors are in any position to develop biowarfare in the short term.
 
I agree ish. It's theoretically a diplomatic mission but also a mysticism one so... who knows.

I figure it's basically a diplo-mission that doesn't return diplo, but set's up the whole tribute/integration system for us, kinda like what the ST did way back after the long ass drought, where they threatend everybody into sending tributes
 
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This thread moves too damn fast.

Someone please provide summary of options @=@
Heres our two analysis addicts at work:
Reminder:

The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Garden costs 3-6 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 1-2 turns provided with have Econ 7

Saltern - Building in the sea and experience with wall construction and fish traps suggests the possibility of trapping large amounts of water to extract tremendous quantities of salt [Stewards] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Saltern costs 4-7 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 2-3 turns provided we have Econ 8

As such:
How many refugees?
[] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] There is a war going on too you know (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)

Largest influx will cause us to hit overcrowding immediately btw. We only have 7 slots left.
The best option here is A significant number + Gardens, allowing us to finish the megaproject in one turn AND do a Restore Order in the same turn.
This will do the following:
Stability 0
Refugees -1
Next turn:
Main Restore Order +1/+2
Megaproject start +1
Megaproject end(Stewards) +1

Which takes us from 0 Stability to 3.

You have discovered powerful new magic
[] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)

Eh, not worth it. Few people can USE it, considering it takes Honey and Salt...of which we're kind of the regional supplier.

[] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)

Neutralish. It's hard to screw up, but only groups trading with us can even implement it.

[] Share with everyone who will listen (+1 Stability, other effects)

This will spread things to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom, which will help stabilize them and makes the Eastern Hills harder to grab.
However, taking this will block us from using Restore Order next turn.

[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)

Well...tempting, but only if we eat a very large refugee influx.

As such, my vote will be:
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

With the goal of next turn:
[][Main] The Garden
[][Secondary] Restore Order
[][Secondary] Restore Order x2

For Stability 3 in 2 turns.

CHOICES

Choice number 1: How many refugees do we take in this time? Bear in mind that our Stability is 0.
Personally, I'm leaning towards the second option. The first option is "No chance of any benefit, tiny chance of taking a shot to Stability anyway" while the last is "An iceberg in our ship's path? Fuck it, who cares about that! Full steam ahead, men!"

Choice number 2: Do we let anyone else learn about our miraculous cure?
Some people are supporting Option A because they're happy to let all the lowlands die off.

On the other end of the spectrum, some people are going full sharing with everyone, even those lazy buggers who don't want to listen! We'll strap them to a chair and make them listen for their own good!

Picking the last option means that we're basically using the Spirit Talker's old strategy of showing up with loads of shiny bling in the hopes of impressing people into signing up with us. Only in this case, replace "shiny bling" with "the cure for that horrible disease that's killing your loved ones". People are going to remember that and our reputation is only going to increase further.

Also, even if we spread out the cure, the situation in the lowlands is unlikely to change.

Even if we cured every sick man, woman and child right now, the Thunder Horses would still be beating up their cousins, the old Highland king's heirs would still be arguing over who gets the throne, and the Dead Priests would still be getting their teeth kicked in by everyone else whenever they poked their heads outside their Bone Wall of DOOM.

Unless something really crazy happens, the lowlands are going to be at war for a while. But even after it ends, everyone is still going to remember us as "those weird guys who tried to help us with the sickness". That nets us a certain level of respect from all our neighbors, which would definitely deter anyone thinking of marching up north to do some raiding in the future.

Not that we need help to beat the greedy buggers back, but I'd rather not have another secondary action locked down again.
 
@veekie, have how considered how yet to integrate the March within the next few turns in order to avoid the clusterfuck that AN warned us that would be brewing there due to them messing with the social system ?
 
Oh, I expect it'll return diplo too.

At least, if we don't botch.

We get diplo from trading stuff, which is not really what is happening here
What we do here is more akin to strapping them on a chair and forcing them to listen to what we say

Therefore I expect no diplo return from the action itself, because it's kinda forceful,
What sounds more likely that it will generate goodwill/awe at our magic among the kingdoms who then either/both send tribute or/& trade mission to us, which then will generate Diplo & maybe even econ

Province -> Main Trails

I think it will take more then that,
That sounds like it's just enough to keep them from breaking away,
But we also need to truly integrate them and off their family trait before it makes a mess out of our system
 
@veekie, have how considered how yet to integrate the March within the next few turns in order to avoid the clusterfuck that AN warned us that would be brewing there due to them messing with the social system ?
1) Lower Centralization so we can Main Trails and fix the connectivity problem(major problem here is that theres no good land route at all, which makes them unable to mutually support Stonepen).
2) More Boats to further assist with the connectivity.
3) Improve Festivals to even out the cultural skew
4) LIKELY to need an Enforce Law at the end to seal the deal, because they are violating the spirit of the law via increasingly abusive practices.

Which basically boils down to: Find a way to drop Centralization and we have most of the solutions enabled.
 
What would you choose to do next turn if the current winning options win?
Well, I'd go with the following:

[Main] [Megaproject] Saltern
[Secondary] New Settlement - Southshore
[Secondary] New Settlement - Southshore x2

(Edit: At least, if I'm here for the next vote. I might not be, depending on how soon it comes up.)

To ensure we've claimed more of the coast and get room for economic expansion to support the megaprojects.

We get diplo from trading stuff, which is not really what is happening here
We get Diplomacy from other tribes through family ties on the part of our traders. Now, our travelling shamans aren't terribly likely to be leaving spouses and children behind, but we'll be establishing other reasons for people to listen to us all the same - it's quite possible we'll be getting improved diplomatic tech from this.
 
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Step One: megaproject + province
Step two: megaproject + trails
Three: Megaproject + Province
Four: Trails + More Boats & change policy to Trade, if latter is free. Otherwise, change policy, main trails, survey lands.
Five: More boats, Black Soil.
Six: More Chariots, Watchtowers.
 
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We need boooooooats. Preferably double main boats.
But when?

I suppose boats could help, but again like trails I don't think they will be enough

If I had to plan it, it would probably look like this

2x Main boats
2x Main New coastal Provinces
2x Main New trails
Main Diplo Mission to Stallion tribe + sec switch to Restore in order for our Provinces to build up enough Stab to both absorb the March & to kill the family trait without getting people overly upset about it
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by minerva-n-memes on May 5, 2017 at 4:18 PM, finished with 715 posts and 109 votes.
 
But it would cost six main actions and six kicks to do so. Assuming that we used grand sacrifices to recover our stability hit, we'd have to spend three more main actions and nine economy. To recover the economy would require another five main actions.

Or in other words, it would take us fourteen main actions to recover back to where we were before we pressed the button. I don't think that destroying one neighbor and empowering the others would be worth the sheer opportunity costs.
Except it doesn't cost economy to do a war mission, even a main one? I mean, you might argue non-linear from stacking mains so much, but there's no reason to believe a technical double 6 pack of main war actions would spend more than 6 econ (if it even costs any in the first place).
 
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