Paths of Civilization

veekie · May 5, 2017

Economy 4->5

Chugging along just fine and dandy. Ready for a Megaproject are we~

Observance
Through careful study of the world, the will and workings of gods and spirits can be determined and understood.
Pros: Improved use of study actions
Cons: I know it worked this one time...

And we have the Observance line from the STs! The one we kept trying to get but could not.

Does spawn superstitions galore though, so we'd need to find some way to purge those over time.

Ash glazed pottery

And glazing is officially ours!

Medicine
Empirical primitive sanitary theory
Oral rehydration therapy

Holy shit. Literally.
An empirical theory of health and we have the universal treatment for fevers. The ability to rehydrate and replenish salts for those rendered unconscious by one disease or another is going to be a massive boost for a lot of illnesses which you would have been able to survive if only you had the ability to eat.

Metal Working
Lined tailings pits

We've also fixed the problem with mines. Now they should only do one Stability damage.

Academia Nut said:
Stories more myth than anything else said that the lowlands were cursed, and those who lived there were stalked by evil spirits, all too eager to reap the souls of those so foolish as to dwell there. Perhaps there was even some wisdom in the now half-legendary Dead Priests trying to appease such monsters, but by all accounts it had not availed them.

Cutting off trade has consequences. History passes into myth.

The Thunder Horse had sent representatives to the Highlands Kingdom with news that they would be reining in their raids against protected territory and even offered tribute in apology, because honestly they had better things to deal with, like the fact that their 'cousins' who insisted on also calling themselves the Thunder Horse were returning from the hills in the far east...

...succession crisis?
One side has the car, axe and a house. The other has unbroken continuity as a nomadic state. This is going to be fun I guess?

Oh, that explains why they didn't attack us, their cousins still remember the promise to never raid the Ymirri as long as their sons remain in power!

Only the Highlander king was a little busy being dead while his sons and war chiefs tore each other apart over who got to be the new king.

Awkward.

...I think the Spirit Talkers might have been onto something about the place being cursed.

In any case, the north of the lowlands were relatively peaceful even as the far east and west of the area were torn apart by civil war and a three way brawl between the Thunder Horse, the eastern Thunder Horse, and the Dead Priests going at it.

Relatively.

Future Eastern Hills province remains in good condition.

And then, whatever demons that plagued that place decided that the violence was not sating their bloodlust fast enough and unleashed a curse of the likes that had not been seen since the dread tales of the star pox had swept through there during the Comet Time. Where before the demons had unleashed purulent fevers that maimed and disfigured and killed, now they conjured up a new epidemic to inflict upon those people. Random and swift, it struck without warning, causing people to collapse in agony where just a moment before they had been fine, inflicting upon them a terrible aching of the guts that soon resulted in the violent and explosive voiding of those guts. A person's vital essence could be drained in mere hours, leaving them a shriveled, sunken, blue-skinned corpse.

The Stability people, it seems, were right about triggering a stability loss event, now striking people dead with Cholera.

Given their retrieval of the star fragments, there were many that feared that the People had sinned, had repeated the hubris of the Thunder Horse in mythical ages past, and that disease was coming for them next, and unlike with the star pox they had no protection.

Star rocks = curse!

People fled the lowlands, demons of plague and disease howling and snapping like wolves at their heels, tearing down the most vulnerable among them as they tried to make the already parching trip through the badlands. Both people and demons were met with a stern faced wall of men and women in deathly silent crow masks. To those seeking refugee they were given food, water, shelter, and comfort.

To the demons?

They gave nothing and took everything!

AN: Imagine this, only the Persians are replaced by cholera (except for the well part, there mentally run that bit in reverse)

Crow bless the Carrion Eaters and Sacred Warding. We tanked the Cholera spread roll.

The continual expansion of holy sites had not increased the number of shamans terribly much, but it had increased the number of part time assistants so that those who were truly blessed by the spirits could devote all their time to spiritual matters, and a fire and mania gripped the shamans.

And it seems the solutions to literacy was to create assistants, so shamans could, like chiefs, fully dedicate themselves to work rather than having to do upkeep and all that stuff.

They had beat the star pox, and they struggled every season with the other diseases, struggled to keep the number of children buried from four out of six to three out of six. They would not let this new curse enter their lands! Nor would they cower and hide from it, turning the desperate away.

...our infant mortality rate is insanely low for our era.
Even four out of six is insanely low.

Perhaps it was the earlier orders of the king to study the fallen star and metal and how people reacted to various herbs and treatments, perhaps it was the knowledge that the key to defeating the star pox had come from noticing that those who worked with cows caught a lesser version, but they studied the curse like a hunter studies prey or a mason studies a stone for faults to break along.

I love Observance already.

People volunteered to test treatments, and while far too many died - painfully, perhaps needlessly - these were losses against a foe greater than them, and more than one person passed on with a smile on their face as well as pained tears in their eyes - if their death meant the salvation of friends and family, then no matter how hideous it would be a good death. And with the shamans carefully tending to each new case, all confined to Lower Valleyhome, each death did bring some new little scrap of insight.

Honorable Death triggers.

People volunteering for fatal medical experiments...this is going to creep the hell out of everyone else. What the Dead Priests use their slave caste for, we have people offer themselves up to sacrifice.

The curse could not be transmitted through blood, not like star pox.

Simply touching the sick could not get you ill, but improper cleanliness while handling the copious amounts of waste the sick produced could.

Sometimes people got sick for no apparent reason... but the People had a clue from another project. They had been struggling to understand the curses from turning stone to metal, setting aside forests and fields to study the problems, and they had seen a few things. The act of breaking apart a metal from its air could curse the air in obvious and subtle ways, and that which was not metal could mix with water to make poisons that stained the land. One of the major breakthroughs however was that if you filled a pit with the refuse of mining and smelting, you had to line it with waterproof pottery or the poison would seep out over the seasons. Another insight was that while some of the poisons were immediately obvious with the staining colours they produced, sometimes you could dilute out the colour but still detect bitter or sour flavours if you took a careful sip. Might there still be poison left even after further dilution?

So it was that the shamans tracked the disease and noted that so long as those who came fleeing its influence were kept in Lower Valleyhome, there were no cases in Upper Valleyhome. The sickness could not swim upriver. But perhaps it could seep out of the latrines if one was not careful? Increased care with waste handling was obviously needed to prevent the spread of this illness.

...and we accidentally developed the merits of glazed ceramic lavatories at the perfect time.

And then came a most miraculous breakthrough. Just supplying water was not good enough, it could not reliably save those who were infected, but a daring shaman had discovered a magnificent spell. Water could be purified through exposure to cleansing flame enough to boil, and then the addition of the pure substances of salt and honey created a tonic that could restore the vital essence of an afflicted person, increasing the chances that they might be able to fight off the curse with strength alone.

You know, this treatment is ridiculously expensive for anyone else. Honey was rare and valuable, because people had to venture into forests to gather the substance, but our Managed forests meant that we had large amounts of honey available in general as a luxury. Salt was rare since it was only available on coasts, and collecting it was very inefficient.

This was basically stuffing people with thousand dollar notes to cure them.

The study of metal production also brought up other concerns: if the rocks brought up from the earth could beget poisons when washed with water, were there other rocks out there that might be similar to the ones deliberately exposed, producing poison? One particularly interesting point was that the most obvious poisons tended to be associated with bright colours - copper had a lot of blues and greens, but some of the waste produced was red or yellow - and foul smells, including some rather rotten egg stenches that were honestly confusing to try to explain.

Red waste is iron oxide.
Yellow is sulfuric acid probably.

And there's hydrogen sulfides too.

However, in searching the Land for both the possibility of more metal deposits or other places where nature had produced a natural seep, the People discovered a sea facing cliff face where several layers of stone almost seemed to be bleeding.
More than that, while not much had been learned from studying the fragments of the fallen star other than that they were incredibly tough, it was noted that some of the stones around the Bleeding Cliff sort of looked like some of the stony bits of the fallen star, or the one red residue they had made in seeing if the fallen star produced poison like other metals.

A frigging iron mine!
That's sedimentary iron!

Perhaps... perhaps a star had fallen here in the past and left a wound in the earth? Maybe metal, being different from other materials, was all derived from the heavens, and the poisons were merely whatever curses were locked away in such disturbance of the celestial order being unleashed? Maybe... maybe not. Hard to tell, but it would probably be worth further study in the future.

Superstitions meanwhile proliferate. Metal in general was considered a cursed material that could be unleashed. Which would align with the Star Axe.

...hey, is that Warpstone/Gromril theory?!

Special Note: Because of the discovery of needing clean water and large amounts of salt to most effectively fight these sorts of disease, starting the Saltern or the Garden next turn will provide +1 Stability as the People are assured that the king is being proactive in protection against demons

Reminder:

The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Garden costs 3-6 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 1-2 turns provided with have Econ 7

Saltern - Building in the sea and experience with wall construction and fish traps suggests the possibility of trapping large amounts of water to extract tremendous quantities of salt [Stewards] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Saltern costs 4-7 Econ to complete.
Megaproject Focus allows for Main(state) + Main(Law) + Main(Province), so we can complete it in 2-3 turns provided we have Econ 8

As such:
How many refugees?
[] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] There is a war going on too you know (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)

Largest influx will cause us to hit overcrowding immediately btw. We only have 7 slots left.
The best option here is A significant number + Gardens, allowing us to finish the megaproject in one turn AND do a Restore Order in the same turn.
This will do the following:
Stability 0
Refugees -1
Next turn:
Main Restore Order +1/+2
Megaproject start +1
Megaproject end(Stewards) +1

Which takes us from 0 Stability to 3.

You have discovered powerful new magic
[] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)

Eh, not worth it. Few people can USE it, considering it takes Honey and Salt...of which we're kind of the regional supplier.

[] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)

Neutralish. It's hard to screw up, but only groups trading with us can even implement it.

[] Share with everyone who will listen (+1 Stability, other effects)

This will spread things to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom, which will help stabilize them and makes the Eastern Hills harder to grab.
However, taking this will block us from using Restore Order next turn.

[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)

Well...tempting, but only if we eat a very large refugee influx.

As such, my vote will be:
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

With the goal of next turn:
[][Main] The Garden
[][Secondary] Restore Order
[][Secondary] Restore Order x2

For Stability 3 in 2 turns.

Powerofmind · May 5, 2017

Candesce said:
This means we get hit by more LoO triggers when we're still short a good way to recover stability.

I understand you might not care about that much, but I at least would prefer the stability to the econ at this moment.

Considering the disease check was generational, it would be highly unlikely that a fresh cholera outbreak would sweep the area quite so soon after the last. I mean, hell, it took a full turn before a pox outbreak hit after we cleared the last one, despite it also having been several generations since the last local epidemic. Unless the dice are lolfuckyoubitch at us, I would call it at a 1% chance that an LoO trigger will proc from a cholera outbreak next turn, the same rough chance that a pox outbreak will occur next turn, potentially also triggering LoO.

Basically, what I'm saying is that we will have time to restore stability in the wake of this mid-turn event. The sheer, impossible terror I see most people exhibit in the face of losing two points of stability simply boggles the mind. We've been at -2 stability at least four times now, I simply can't comprehend why people are still so pants-shitting scared of it.

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sharing sanitation theory will do little to up the market for salt. You guys are overestimating how much salt is used in the making of basic sanitary saline solution(which is what that honey, water, and salt mixture is). The amount needed for efficient food preservation dwarfs the amount used in sanitation, and effectively makes any impact on the salt market by the introduction of sanitation minimal. How much salt do you think is in saline solution anyway?

Boiling is the more important aspect of the process anyway, as that is what actually cleans the water for use, and that can be accomplished anywhere.

Have any of you even considered that any trade bonus from sharing this secret will be entirely outweighed by our neighbors and enemies dying in droves? The prosperity of our people of far more importance than the fucking price of salt.

you forget that the price will be driven up by desperation

Also, I'm neutral on the moral qualms v pragmatic benefit aspect of people who aren't us dying.

Citino · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sharing sanitation theory will do little to up the market for salt. You guys are overestimating how much salt is used in the making of basic sanitary saline solution(which is what that honey, water, and salt mixture is). The amount needed for efficient food preservation dwarfs the amount used in sanitation, and effectively makes any impact on the salt market by the introduction of sanitation minimal. How much salt do you think is in saline solution anyway?

Boiling is the more important aspect of the process anyway, as that is what actually cleans the water for use, and that can be accomplished anywhere.

Have any of you even considered that any trade bonus from sharing this secret will be entirely outweighed by our neighbors and enemies dying in droves? The prosperity of our people of far more importance than the fucking price of salt.

You forgot two factors.

1) We are the only known source for honey.

And more importantly...

2) We don't want to be the assholes who let other people die when we can stop it.

VoidZero · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
No we don't. Sharing means that they stabilize and try and drag us into their war again.

A quip, TH is having a grand time with their NOT!Cousin, HK is having a battle royale for the crown, and DP is either stabilizing or conquering their former territory. All the while cholera reaping it's toll.

And salt, honey, with boiling water is expansive! I don't think the average population at lowland will have a drop, so the population as a whole will still tank due to cholera and starvation. Since the farmers are likely dead or deserted to us.

Motoko · May 5, 2017

Reader of all said:
That plan has a chance of going -2 stab without any gains

The leading plan screws us for a GUARANTEED -2 stability by the end of the damn turn, Right in the middle of a local Crisis!
This!
IS NOT
SMART!
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

pblur · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sure; but its a different thing. Smallpox vaccine only defends against smallpox, and gives immunity. So no benefit to keeping it from attacking us again.

Sanitation stops epidemics from starting and spreading, but only mitigates their impact. So we save People lives by creating defense in depth in neighboring polities against epidemic.

SpeckofStardust · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
It does however both give them incentive to do so and a means to get out of the chaos they are currently in. The longer they are stuck fighting and dying, the more leeway we have to solving our current problems, like the troubles with our March, literacy, and dealing with the megaproject we are likely to start.

I'd rather they not put their nose in our business when we deal with that.

And I rather be on good terms with everyone around us so that if something game changing heads our way were better able to handle it.

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

hylas240 said:
That's extreme pessimism, as the "tiny chance" is like 5-10%. You can't legit believe that this has a reasonable chance of happening unless you just want to nitpick because it's not a plan you agree with.

Yes but the chance of a stab hit keeping it a secret is 50% so even discounting the worst scenario of -2 stab for 0 gain the most likely chance would still leave us with -1 stab for 0 gain

redzonejoe · May 5, 2017

bluefur87 said:
The garden is quicker
...
But yeah, even if it does, the garden is quicker so we can reasonably finish it in one turn.

Again, why is that so important? I mean obviously megaprojects give great advantages, but Saltern honestly sounds better and it's immediately relevant. And we get a free +1 stability just for starting it!

So why is it so important that we finish our next project in one turn? 3 turns from now we'll have both anyways, but Saltern is more valuable to us now.

zamin · May 5, 2017

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Citino · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
The leading plan screws us for a GUARANTEED -2 stability by the end of the damn turn, Right in the middle of a local Crisis!
This!
IS NOT
SMART!
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

Leading plan also triggers GG 3 times, so it could also be a +1 (not likely) or more possibly a -1.

redzonejoe said:
Again, why is that so important? I mean obviously megaprojects give great advantages, but Saltern honestly sounds better and it's immediately relevant. And we get a free +1 stability just for starting it!

So why is it so important that we finish our next project in one turn? 3 turns from now we'll have both anyways, but Saltern is more valuable to us now.

Garden also gives +1?

pblur · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
The leading plan screws us for a GUARANTEED -2 stability by the end of the damn turn, Right in the middle of a local Crisis!
This!
IS NOT
SMART!
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

NO. It isn't guaranteed -2. In fact it has less than a 50% chance to be -2 since greater good rolls 3 times. If you wamt to fight it, the econ overflow argument is better.

pbluekan · May 5, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
WE want to basically sell the cure NOT THE SALT.

That's....

You can't sell knowledge like that. This isn't the modern age. It doesn't work, because there is no such thing as copyright, and it isn't a physical item. The first outside party you sell it to can sell it immediately to everyone around them and so on, and because it isn't a physical item, nobody is coming back to you for repeat sales. Seeing as the salt necessary for saline production can be made quite easily by drying out a pot full of salt, they have no reason to buy that from us either. So tell me, what exactly are you selling?

The fact is, giving this away is doing just that, for a completely temporary advantage that is insignificant in the long run.

Candesce · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
Not if we keep those to a minimum by not taking them. Like we absolutely can right now.

No immigrants, keep the secret is, on average, -1 stability or two actions as a deficit, assuming Restore Order as the fix.

One set of immigrants, tell everyone is +.5 stability, +2 econ, and never go below 0 stability, or a three action profit.

And I'm not planning on trying to purge Land of Opportunity from our trait list.

I'd rather reduce the frequency of LoO hits by reducing the impact this specific disease causes locally, though I'll admit I consider the opportunity to reacquire Sacred War and Restore Harmony a bonus, too.

Powerofmind said:
We've been at -2 stability at least four times now, I simply can't comprehend why people are still so pants-shitting scared of it.

I'm not even remotely terrified of it. As my arguments leading up to this vote should have made exceedingly obvious. I just consider "let's keep knowledge of a cure most other polities would have to buy from us anyway" of minimal value, and stability is expensive, so it's a really nice trade.

Inspirit · May 5, 2017

...Well, that was awesome. Ah, I can just imagine the Negaverse reactions when they realise we've beaten cholera. Truly the Ymrri are a bullshit people.

I also find it hilarious that the lowlands are in chaos due to disease and war, and the only upheaval we've had recently that comes close is the Tax Crisis.

[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[x] Expansion

Hello negative stability, my old friend...

Karugus · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
It does however both give them incentive to do so and a means to get out of the chaos they are currently in. The longer they are stuck fighting and dying, the more leeway we have to solving our current problems, like the troubles with our March, literacy, and dealing with the megaproject we are likely to start.

I'd rather they not put their nose in our business when we deal with that.

This is not the first plague that's knocked them over- they'll get back up no matter what we can do, but what we can do is further ensure the risk of us getting hit by a major epidemic is increasingly lower. Them spending actions and resources developing and ensuring they have protocol in place making use of our knowledge are things not being spent on war actions and boosting martial.

I don't see why we'd be any more of a target for revealing treatment methods.

Entropy Engineer · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sharing sanitation theory will do little to up the market for salt. You guys are overestimating how much salt is used in the making of basic sanitary saline solution(which is what that honey, water, and salt mixture is). The amount needed for efficient food preservation dwarfs the amount used in sanitation, and effectively makes any impact on the salt market by the introduction of sanitation minimal. How much salt do you think is in saline solution anyway?

Boiling is the more important aspect of the process anyway, as that is what actually cleans the water for use, and that can be accomplished anywhere.

Have any of you even considered that any trade bonus from sharing this secret will be entirely outweighed by our neighbors and enemies dying in droves? The prosperity of our people of far more importance than the fucking price of salt.

Actually yeah it would up the value of salt. Even if you don't factor in the amount of salt used in saline solutions. You have to take into account the cultural and spiritual significance. Salt would become something more than just something to preserve food or flavour it but something you need to purify water of the "demons". From a commodity of the commons to the wealth of the nobility. That is something that will up the demand for salt. Something we'll be all to happy to supply.

SpeckofStardust · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

competing with? COMPETING WITH? WHO THE HELL ARE WE COMPETING WITH? PEOPLE IN THE LOWLANDS THE AREA NO ONE IN THIS TREAD WANTS TO GO TO AT ALL EVER? THE NOMADS WHO IS BEHIND OUR MARCH AND THUS WILL NOT EXPAND TOWARDS ANY TIME SOON? THE METAL WORKERS WHO IS ARCOSS THE SEA AND IS OUR SUPPLIERS OF COPPER TUHS PEOPLE WE WANT STABLE?

Abby Normal · May 5, 2017

bluefur87 said:
But yeah, even if it doesn't, the garden is quicker so we can reasonably finish it in one turn.

People keep saying this, and i don't get why...

Academia Nut said:
The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Academia Nut said:
Saltern - Building in the sea and experience with wall construction and fish traps suggests the possibility of trapping large amounts of water to extract tremendous quantities of salt [Stewards] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Like, yeah, if we put literally all of our actions (2 main actions), our provinces go all in (2 more), and we kick things twice, then we can guarantee the garden...but why the hell would we spend 2 stability instead of just spending an extra turn? And i'll remind people that thats not "3-6 turns, average 4.5". during...i think it was the canal, we had a 5% chance per action of getting a free actions worth. Not 50% or anything like people seem to think. The saltern takes exactly 1 more action, which frankly just means we have to spend 3 of our own actions instead of 2, since either way it'll take 2 turns unless we get really really lucky.

Academia Nut said:
Despite the tax snafu, you still have the finest taxmen in the known world. Your priests are considered odd in that most of them are very practical people, even if they also study esoteric subjects. Your shamans are less mysterious and more approachable, although they also maintain a very tight grip on anything they legitimately consider dangerous.

Hmm--if our shamans are considered so weird, how are our taxmen and administrative workers in general viewed by our neighbors? ...given their reaction to our law-gaes and mystical obelisks, do they even see a difference between the two, or just assume that we have even more shamans than we do, and half of them are in charge of that law-gaes?

Citino · May 5, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
competing with? COMPETING WITH? WHO THE HELL ARE WE COMPETING WITH? PEOPLE IN THE LOWLANDS THE AREA NO ONE IN THIS TREAD WANTS TO GO TO AT ALL EVER? THE NOMADS WHO IS BEHIND OUR MARCH AND THUS WILL NOT EXPAND TOWARDS ANY TIME SOON? THE METAL WORKERS WHO IS ARCOSS THE SEA AND IS OUR SUPPLIERS OF COPPER TUHS PEOPLE WE WANT STABLE?

Woah, what brought this on friend?

tryrar · May 5, 2017

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
The leading plan screws us for a GUARANTEED -2 stability by the end of the damn turn, Right in the middle of a local Crisis!
This!
IS NOT
SMART!
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

Or or bare with me THEY BECOME GRATEFUL TO US if we do this we are basically replacing the spirit talkers as THE spiritual authority of the territory AND it would upgrade our already existing values that is not even discounting the fact that we will have THREE chances to activate GG. We can then do

Main Megaproject Saltern
Secondary Improve Festivals
Secondar improve festivalsx2

to go back to stab 0

or my preferred plan

Main Mega project Saltern
secondary Grand sacrifice
Secondary grand sacrificex2
to get stab 1

Seriously have you learned NOTHING of the formation of the people!?

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

redzonejoe said:
Again, why is that so important? I mean obviously megaprojects give great advantages, but Saltern honestly sounds better and it's immediately relevant. And we get a free +1 stability just for starting it!

So why is it so important that we finish our next project in one turn? 3 turns from now we'll have both anyways, but Saltern is more valuable to us now.

Now that I've seen that the Saltern only takes 4-7 turns I definitely support it.
A main x 2 + kick x 2 + province support = probably done in 1 turn, with synergized benefits.

pbluekan said:
That's....

You can't sell knowledge like that. This isn't the modern age. It doesn't work, because there is no such thing as copyright, and it isn't a physical item. The first outside party you sell it to can sell it immediately to everyone around them and so on, and because it isn't a physical item, nobody is coming back to you for repeat sales. Seeing as the salt necessary for saline production can be made quite easily by drying out a pot full of salt, they have no reason to buy that from us either. So tell me, what exactly are you selling?

The fact is, giving this away is doing just that, for a completely temporary advantage that is insignificant in the long run.

... We're selling the cure by being the person goes to other people and gives it to them. Which is something the choice for "give it even to people who don't want to listen" does better than the "give it to friendly tribes" choice. Aka the telephone conundrum doesn't apply to local neighbors in this situation. Since we're probably even giving it to the Southern Hill People and Metal Workers, it's going quite far and directly benefits us because it's directly from us.

redzonejoe · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
The leading plan screws us for a GUARANTEED -2 stability by the end of the damn turn, Right in the middle of a local Crisis!
This!
IS NOT
SMART!
If we hold the sanitation secret, they stew and fight themselves to death in the lowlands with no effort on our part.
If we HAND them a cure, they only get to be a stronger pain in the ass for us! You don't give techs to civs you are directly competing with!

If you're looking at this like a competitive video game with only one winner, then yes.

If you look at this as people dying for no real reason other than that it maybe gives us an advantage that we're not even going to capitalize on, then no. Fuck that.

I'm not trying to win this quest. I'm trying to enjoy it.

Paths of Civilization

In Madness Fallen

Procrastinating.

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Herald of Iron to The People

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Vaguely Pastafarian

The Watcher in the Dark

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Somethin's Fucky ...

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Vaguely Pastafarian